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Relapse wrote:

True, I just brought up that example to show how something like seperatism can be not as good as portrayed.

Depends on how willing one side is to commit crimes against humanity. Victory in the US Civil War was bought with many, many acts that, in this day and age, would be so far beyond the pale that the UN would have intervened. You know, banned weapons, running death camps, attacking Civilian populations, the list goes on...

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Relapse wrote:

True, I just brought up that example to show how something like seperatism can be not as good as portrayed.

Depends on how willing one side is to commit crimes against humanity. Victory in the US Civil War was bought with many, many acts that, in this day and age, would be so far beyond the pale that the UN would have intervened. You know, banned weapons, running death camps, attacking Civilian populations, the list goes on...

It was definitely an ugly time. A letter from an uncle of mine that fought for the North talks of a time he was on a forced march. Union soldiers were falling by the wayside and having their throats cut as they lay helpless by some of the locals. He had fallen out with heat stroke, but was taken in by some kinder souls that nursed him back to health.

Relapse wrote:

It was definitely an ugly time. A letter from an uncle of mine that fought for the North talks of a time he was on a forced march. Union soldiers were falling by the wayside and having their throats cut as they lay helpless by some of the locals. He had fallen out with heat stroke, but was taken in by some kinder souls that nursed him back to health.

"I regard the death and mangling of a couple thousand men as a small affair, a kind of morning dash...' - W T Sherman (letter home to his wife)

"'When one man dies it is a tragedy, when thousands die it's statistics" - Stalin (att by McCullough)

Relapse wrote:I'd hate to see things get ugly over in Quebec like they were in the 1960's and 70's. I remember when Trudeu's friend was kidnapped by seperatists, strangled with his own rosery and left in the trunk of a car. As a child living on the Maine side of the border, I couldn't understand why there were killings going on because I grew up surrounded by French people and they were some of the coolest people I've ever known in my life.

I don't think he was friends with Trudeau; but he was an MP. Then the FLQ leaders fled to Paris, where they were assassinated by the Canadian government.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I should never have watched Game of Thrones. For some reason I just pictured Frazz yelling 'Un roi du nord!'


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 Manchu wrote:
Not quite. As Kovnik pointed out, the fault lines here are "cultural." That is the language of nationalism. But we don't have to rely on Kovnik. Just look at Quebec internally during the last few decades, with all the nationalist rhetoric. They even renamed their provincial legislature the "National Assembly."

And let me ask this: How is nationalistic sentiment (also called by some 'patriotism') a bad thing in this context? They're functionally a different culture than the nation they're joined to, is it wrong of them to want to exercise every culture's right (save where occupied by the United States) to self determination?

Historically, one culture being given rule over another has only ever led to violence and destruction.

I have to admit, I'm more of a "once more into the breech, dear friends!" kind of guy.

If we are really going to carve Canada up based on "culture" then we'd have: The Douchey Western Munchies, The Great Flat Nothing in the Middle, Boring Snotty Ontario, That Fething French Place, and Those Funny Easterners. Topped off by The Actual Frozen North.

Really, individually, we are a bunch of sad sacks who would inevitably get steamrolled by The Goddamn South. It is only together that we make up the Greatest Nation on God's Green Earth.

Vive Unity! Vive Canada!

Eh? The USA is now considered the "South" by our northern budies.........just going to walk away now whistling "Dixie"

 Jihadin wrote:
Eh?

That's the spirit!

 azazel the cat wrote:
Honestly, the only reason I'd oppose Quebec leaving is because they are unlikely to repay their percentage of the national debt, which is the highest in Canada at over $39,000 per person in Quebec. If they can cough up the money, I'd let them leave, after carving out a pathway along the south side of the province to ensure trans-canada freight and eliminate any border Quebec might have with the US.

Overall it's not the smartest move, but that "distinct society" garbage really irks me. Such is the level of my irritation.

It would be funny if they split, then the Inuits pulled some legal strings and had them all evicted since they're just leasing the land anyways

Oh Quebec, you seceded, grats
Get off our lawn
we leased to canada, not to you, now get out.

The Quebecois or French Canadians or just Canadians as they used to call them self’s back in the days of British North America, when they weren’t discriminated against and were free to keep there language and culture. History’s been so hard on them

There about as french as Burger King Fries. Some say they speak 300 year old French. But no they speak a mutated North American hick French, that the actual French find hilarious. In much the same way Scots Canadians are ridiculed here

[quote=TheHammer 474507 4734213 null}

So, while Canada has 1/3 the amount of guns per capita as America it only has close to 1/6 the amount of gun homicides per capita as America.

sirlynchmob wrote:

It would be funny if they split, then the Inuits pulled some legal strings and had them all evicted since they're just leasing the land anyways

Oh Quebec, you seceded, grats
Get off our lawn
we leased to canada, not to you, now get out.

If they do, let us know how they do it. We could use it to throw the United States out. Sadly, the two things are about as likely. (though I'm told that PA, NY, and OH would gladly give back the parts of them that we owned, except their tax income would drop)

 Cheesecat wrote:
[quote=TheHammer 474507 4734213 null}

So, while Canada has 1/3 the amount of guns per capita as America it only has close to 1/6 the amount of gun homicides per capita as America.

Hmm, I wonder if the amount of guns a country has is correlated with the amount of gun homicides.

 Melissia wrote:
Culture is far more important than gun ownership.

There are many places that have high gun ownership per capita and low gun related deaths per capita, both in the US and abroad. Many places are just plain dangerous, guns or no.

Many areas of Canada have a similar culture to the US. Personally, I think that there is some sort of pressure mechanism at work.

You really have no damn clue what you're talking about if you think the US has one cohesive culture.

 cpt_fishcakes wrote:
The Quebecois or French Canadians or just Canadians as they used to call them self’s back in the days of British North America, when they weren’t discriminated against and were free to keep there language and culture. History’s been so hard on them

Yes, the term 'canadian' was first used by us. Are you really going to suggest that this means that we should be content to be conquered, and later became part of a country that uses the same name? Because that's all kinds of dumb, honestly. Would Brits have been content being conquered by the Nazi, if only they had been allowed to keep their names?

There about as french as Burger King Fries. Some say they speak 300 year old French. But no they speak a mutated North American hick French, that the actual French find hilarious. In much the same way Scots Canadians are ridiculed here

That is correct. We have branched out and away from France's culture and language. I don't see how that's relevent. We're not asking for sovereignty on the grounds that we are french, but that we are distinct.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Many areas of Canada have a similar culture to the US.

Pretty much the entirety of the Commonwealth countries have a culture similar to that of the US, but they're also sufficiently distinct to be noted as such. Most notably the US tends towards individualism in a way that isn't as common in the remained of the Western world.


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 Melissia wrote:
You really have no damn clue what you're talking about if you think the US has one cohesive culture.

Its about as homogeneous as any other nation, possibly more so. Sure, there are regional differences, but there is most definitely common identity and set of cultural practices which is about as close as you can get to cohesiveness when discussing a culture.

Indeed, the majority of diversity in the United States seems to be political, rather than cultural, and likely resulted from the way our government is structured.

 Melissia wrote:
You really have no damn clue what you're talking about if you think the US has one cohesive culture.

While I grant there are regional differences, and even near dialects, no US states have quite the difference in culture between, say, Alberta and Quebec. The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is California and Texas, and even those two at least have an official language in common.

 Melissia wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:
[quote=TheHammer 474507 4734213 null}

So, while Canada has 1/3 the amount of guns per capita as America it only has close to 1/6 the amount of gun homicides per capita as America.

Hmm, I wonder if the amount of guns a country has is correlated with the amount of gun homicides.

Culture is far more important than gun ownership.

There are many places that have high gun ownership per capita and low gun related deaths per capita, both in the US and abroad. Many places are just plain dangerous, guns or no.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

While I grant there are regional differences, and even near dialects, no US states have quite the difference in culture between, say, Alberta and Quebec. The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is California and Texas, and even those two at least have an official language in common.

So do Quebec and Alberta.

As for cultural distinction, I think you would find a greater difference between Texas and New York (or really any New England state) than Texas and California. Though California is probably unique in being the most culturally diverse state in the US thanks to its sheer geographic size, and high rate of extra-national immigration.

Edit ; Brainfart

dogma wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

While I grant there are regional differences, and even near dialects, no US states have quite the difference in culture between, say, Alberta and Quebec. The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is California and Texas, and even those two at least have an official language in common.

So do Quebec and Alberta.

Only in a legal sense.

In practice, you'll find that nobody speaks French in Alberta and in Quebec only small enclaves speak English. Hell, the province immediately to the East of Alberta, -Saskatchewan- actually has provincial legislation protecting schools from being forced to offer French as a language course.

The cultural difference between Alberta and Quebec is still comparable to that between Texas or Louisiana and New England.

 azazel the cat wrote:
Only in a legal sense.

In practice, you'll find that nobody speaks French in Alberta and in Quebec only small enclaves speak English. Hell, the province immediately to the East of Alberta, -Saskatchewan- actually has provincial legislation protecting schools from being forced to offer French as a language course.

'Nobody', as in over 65 000 people?

Anyway. If the PQ or Bloc had played their cards right, we'd have a French-Canadian zionism mouvement by now.


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 Mannahnin wrote:
The cultural difference between Alberta and Quebec is still comparable to that between Texas or Louisiana and New England.

I'd say that's about right. If you add to this that Catholicism is the major religion here, while it's next to inexistent over there, and that inversely Protestantism doesn't even register on our radars here.

And the language.

And, for some reason, the fact that teenage mothers are like a dime a dozen in Alberta. Seriously.

Can't beleive there's a thread about Canadian unity. Very interesting however I'm thinking the gunman, clad only in a bathrobe and balaclava, was probably just a crazy person rather than some political zealot.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The cultural difference between Alberta and Quebec is still comparable to that between Texas or Louisiana and New England.

I'd say that's about right. If you add to this that Catholicism is the major religion here, while it's next to inexistent over there, and that inversely Protestantism doesn't even register on our radars here

Whereas we have both, but one area has a large Spanish/Mexican and colonial French background, whereas the other's culture more directly based on the Brits. Plus little factors like that old slave state/free state difference of opinion.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
And the language.

Like Spanish?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
And, for some reason, the fact that teenage mothers are like a dime a dozen in Alberta. Seriously.

Really? I know the Southern US has a higher teenage pregnancy and birth rate, but the US in general has been improving on that score for decades. Is it really that common in Alberta, or is that one of those regional slurs?

Better off to ask what the job market is like there. I'm thinking its like northern WI. No jobs but drugs and alcohol with time on their hand.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
You really have no damn clue what you're talking about if you think the US has one cohesive culture.

While I grant there are regional differences, and even near dialects, no US states have quite the difference in culture between, say, Alberta and Quebec. The closest I can come up with off the top of my head is California and Texas, and even those two at least have an official language in common.

repectfully, neither Texas nor California have an official language that I am aware of. Now cultural differences I'd put Texas or Louisiana against NY. There's some differences in country. But hey, my wife is from Chicago. Now thats an interracial marriage. If we can get along there's not that much of a difference.

I don't know how different Quebec is. I do know that separation would probably not help your economy. Leaving that would be strictly meh.

Manchu pegged a few pages back. He has an alarming understanding of Canada and will have to be eliminated later but basically yes, there's are true believers and die hards that want Quebec soveiregnty but a lot of it is political bs to hold over Ottawa for more federal money. This continues to this day because it works. Political pandering to Quebec is a serious problem. Quebec benefits more from being part of Canada than any other province.


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 Jihadin wrote:
Better off to ask what the job market is like there. I'm thinking its like northern WI. No jobs but drugs and alcohol with time on their hand.

Alberta? It has one of the world's largest oil reserves. It's Canada's boom town.

 Mannahnin wrote:

Like Spanish?

Completely forgot Spanish.

Really? I know the Southern US has a higher teenage pregnancy and birth rate, but the US in general has been improving on that score for decades. Is it really that common in Alberta, or is that one of those regional slurs?

It's a personnal observation, so take it with a grain of salt. But I've never seen as many pregnant teens as in Alberta (I stayed there 3 years). One softball female team was taken out of the circuit in a small town next to Red Deer because over half of the team was pregnant.


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 Jihadin wrote:
Better off to ask what the job market is like there. I'm thinking its like northern WI. No jobs but drugs and alcohol with time on their hand.

In Québec? It's not bad at all. We were spared most of the economic crisis. Québec City, for exemple, was cited in a newspaper as being the one least affected by it in Canada.

We have a booming gaming industry, both major cities are great touristic locations, and if we can get rid of those damn hippies, we'll be able to exploit our untouched natural gaz reserves.



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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Manchu pegged a few pages back. He has an alarming understanding of Canada and will have to be eliminated later but basically yes, there's are true believers and die hards that want Quebec soveiregnty but a lot of it is political bs to hold over Ottawa for more federal money. This continues to this day because it works. Political pandering to Quebec is a serious problem. Quebec benefits more from being part of Canada than any other province.

That pretty much ignores the fact that more or less 30% of the population remains sovereignist. It's not a political strategy to suck more cash out of Ottawa.