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I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

What would you rather have it has? The guy was english, the guy was an dick, the guy was trying to murder Marois.
He was trying to murder her exactly because of his ethnicity, and the oppression he perceived himself being victim of, so it's a valid piece of information. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that I call a murderer that ended his revolutionnary statement with 'wanna make trouble' a donkey-cave?

 Kovnik Obama wrote:


Since the objective of an insult is to carry over one's contempt for another, don't you find weird that the person who supposedly insulted you would deny having insulted you? If you want to feel insulted because you've been called by a designator that semantically applies to you, fine. It's another thing to give intent to someone who denies that very intent.

Yeah, good one. Racists use that sort of thin rhetoric all the time. "What? 'P*ki' is just short for 'Pakistani', that's not racist! I like p*kis!' Yeah, sure you do. You know what you're doing, so just knock it off.

Rather weird too that until you and Melissia showed up, no other english-canadian engaged in this thread felt the need to report as insulting a idiom that's actually included in the title of the very thread.

I reported the thread on day one. I didn't post in it until now because I doubted my ability to stay civil in the face of ethnic slurs. Do you really not understand that putting 'Anglo donkey-cave' in the title could be extremely offensive to English people and English speakers? I don't buy it. I think you're playing dumb.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

What would you rather have it has? The guy was english, the guy was an dick, the guy was trying to murder Marois.
He was trying to murder her exactly because of his ethnicity, and the oppression he perceived himself being victim of, so it's a valid piece of information. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that I call a murderer that ended his revolutionnary statement with 'wanna make trouble' a donkey-cave?

Well she isn't the Prime Minister she's the Premiere of Quebec so that's misleading.

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

What would you rather have it has? The guy was english, the guy was an dick, the guy was trying to murder Marois.
He was trying to murder her exactly because of his ethnicity, and the oppression he perceived himself being victim of, so it's a valid piece of information. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that I call a murderer that ended his revolutionnary statement with 'wanna make trouble' a donkey-cave?

Well she isn't the Prime Minister she's the Premiere of Quebec so that's misleading.

Sorry, In French it's called Premier Ministre, so I've always had the reflex to translate it as such.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

What would you rather have it has? The guy was english, the guy was an dick, the guy was trying to murder Marois.
He was trying to murder her exactly because of his ethnicity, and the oppression he perceived himself being victim of, so it's a valid piece of information. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that I call a murderer that ended his revolutionnary statement with 'wanna make trouble' a donkey-cave?

Well she isn't the Prime Minister she's the Premiere of Quebec so that's misleading.

Sorry, In French it's called Premier Ministre, so I've always had the reflex to translate it as such.

Oh, didn't know that no problems then.

 Albatross wrote:
I reported the thread on day one. I didn't post in it until now because I doubted my ability to stay civil in the face of ethnic slurs. Do you really not understand that putting 'Anglo donkey-cave' in the title could be extremely offensive to English people and English speakers? I don't buy it. I think you're playing dumb.

So you reported it from day one and it's still going on, on top of things I've even discussed my position with a MOD who disagreed with me, and yet didn't use the hammer. Maybe you should take a hint? Unless you identify yourself with the murderer in question, no, it shouldn't be insulting to you. He did what he did because he was anglophone, a dick, and perceived his people's oppression. Those are the defining elements of the story.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I reported the thread on day one. I didn't post in it until now because I doubted my ability to stay civil in the face of ethnic slurs. Do you really not understand that putting 'Anglo donkey-cave' in the title could be extremely offensive to English people and English speakers? I don't buy it. I think you're playing dumb.

So you reported it from day one and it's still going on, on top of things I've even discussed my position with a MOD who disagreed with me, and yet didn't use the hammer. Maybe you should take a hint? Unless you identify yourself with the murderer in question, no, it shouldn't be insulting to you. He did what he did because he was anglophone, a dick, and perceived his people's oppression. Those are the defining elements of the story.

Yes, I can see that you combined those elements and managed to come up with the least offensive and inflammatory title possible. Please accept my completely insincere and sarcastic apologies.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I reported the thread on day one. I didn't post in it until now because I doubted my ability to stay civil in the face of ethnic slurs. Do you really not understand that putting 'Anglo donkey-cave' in the title could be extremely offensive to English people and English speakers? I don't buy it. I think you're playing dumb.

So you reported it from day one and it's still going on, on top of things I've even discussed my position with a MOD who disagreed with me, and yet didn't use the hammer. Maybe you should take a hint? Unless you identify yourself with the murderer in question, no, it shouldn't be insulting to you. He did what he did because he was anglophone, a dick, and perceived his people's oppression. Those are the defining elements of the story.

Um, what?

 Cheesecat wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Albatross wrote:
I reported the thread on day one. I didn't post in it until now because I doubted my ability to stay civil in the face of ethnic slurs. Do you really not understand that putting 'Anglo donkey-cave' in the title could be extremely offensive to English people and English speakers? I don't buy it. I think you're playing dumb.

So you reported it from day one and it's still going on, on top of things I've even discussed my position with a MOD who disagreed with me, and yet didn't use the hammer. Maybe you should take a hint? Unless you identify yourself with the murderer in question, no, it shouldn't be insulting to you. He did what he did because he was anglophone, a dick, and perceived his people's oppression. Those are the defining elements of the story.

Um, what? .

Let me rephrase ; the cause he espoused was that of an english uprising in Quebec. The 3 terms were to be put in conjonction, I'm not trying to imply that being anglophone is the cause of the violence. I'm saying that 'Anglo Donkey-cave murderer' is an apt descriptor if your being anenglish violent dick.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I'm not really comfortable with the title of this thread to be honest. It's inaccurate and inflammatory.

What would you rather have it has? The guy was english, the guy was an dick, the guy was trying to murder Marois.
He was trying to murder her exactly because of his ethnicity, and the oppression he perceived himself being victim of, so it's a valid piece of information. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that I call a murderer that ended his revolutionnary statement with 'wanna make trouble' a donkey-cave?

He hasn't been charged with the attempted murder of Marois afaik. Like I said before he appears to just be a crazy guy with guns not some zealot.

I'll take the word of the Canadian folks that Anglo and Franco are used as neutral shorthand for folks who primarily speak one language or the other.

I think Alby's skepticism over that's not entirely inappropriate. Most similar terms used in most parts of the world are usually used in a derogatory or disrespectful sense.

Not normally offensive but context is important. If the title was "Black Donkey-Cave tries to kill white women" wouldn't you say one of those words is superfluous at best and inflammatory at worst even though it normally isn't?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

He hasn't been charged with the attempted murder of Marois afaik. Like I said before he appears to just be a crazy guy with guns not some zealot.

Well that's another issue.

A few students put smoking bombs in the metro during summer ; Terrorism charges.
Someone murders people at a political meeting while shouting calls to ethnic violence ; Homicide charges.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Not normally offensive but context is important. If the title was "Black Donkey-Cave kills tries to kill white women" wouldn't you say one of those words is superfluous at best and inflammatory at worst even though it normally isn't?

Well 'black' wouldn't be the offensive part of that title, honestly.

Anyway, insults have a subjective part, if english speakers beleive that 'anglo' is offensive, I'll avoid the term. I just want to say that I wasn't using it in any derogatory role, and that I find stupid loosing more and more terms because of over-sensibilities.

Oops, typing on a not so ergonomic phone. Fixed now.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Using "anglo" as an insult annoys me. It's like when South Koreans call Europeans "Yankee" (which they do; the term is used for anyone who is caucasian).

It's not an insult, it's a designation. We quebecers have a complete lexicon full of insults, don't worry, our insults for english-canadians are much more colourful.

Well, as colourful as low-brow 18th-century French can possibly be nowadays. And given that most of ye olde French insults typically involve some sort of jab about not being Catholic or else a curse from God, those insults tend to make their contributor look silly in a modern context.

But for what it's worth, I've never once heard the term "Anglo" used as or interpreted to be an insult. It's just a shorthand for "anglophone", which means "English speaker". It in no way has the same connotation as something like "Jap" for instance. In Canada, we use the designations of "Anglophone" and "Francophone" to denote English and French speakers, respectively, because we cannot rightfully call many French speakers "French-Canadians", as they may not necessarily have French origins; they might merely speak French because of their regional habitation. Likewise, it would be remiss to call a Canadian that was naturalized from China a "English Canadian"; instead we might use the term "Anglophone", or "Anglo" for short.

However, the truth of it is that we really don't even do that. Kovnik Obama is something of a rarity, as very few Canadians use the term "Anglo" or "Anglophone" at all; we really just use the term "Francophone" when referring to a French-speaking person, and just otherwise assume that being an English speaker is the default in Canada.

...and THAT, ladies and gentlement, is how you insult a Canadian Francophone without saying anything derogatory or untrue.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

 Albatross wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Using "anglo" as an insult annoys me.

I have to agree. There's a particularly nasty undercurrent of anti-English (and by extension, American) prejudice running through this thread.

That's a fairly ridiculous opinion, since a fairly large group of Sovereignist are actually considering the option of leaving Canada to join the US.

That implies a fairly large group of Sovereignists don't actually understand what "sovereign" means.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not normally offensive but context is important. If the title was "Black Donkey-Cave tries to kill white women" wouldn't you say one of those words is superfluous at best and inflammatory at worst even though it normally isn't?

Given the root context for the attack is a potential breakdown in anglo-francophone relations, I think the description is warranted. While the "donkey-cave" bit is an obvious editorial statement, that doesn't appear to be the part that you're upset with. And I doubt that the "donkey-cave" bit is drawn as a result of the attacker being an anglophone, inasmuch as it is being drawn from the fact that he attempted ot assassinate the Premier of Quebec. And for what it's worth, I'm saying this as someone that lives in the least French part of Canada, and associates with that extremely-not-French culture.

...although I do loves me some poutine.

You were goIng along good there until that very last line: soggy fries are gross.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
You were goIng along good there until that very last line: soggy fries are gross.

He's right... soggy fries are gross.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You were goIng along good there until that very last line: soggy fries are gross.

That means they've been prepared incorrectly!

The fries shall be crispy, and then covered in beef gravy and cheese curds! If the fries have been cut thin and cooked properly, then they shall remain (reasonably) crispy until you are finished eating.

A common mistake is cutting the fries too thick, in which case they become soggy.

Azazel I think you just eat your poutine at a dangerously fast speed!

 azazel the cat wrote:
However, the truth of it is that we really don't even do that. Kovnik Obama is something of a rarity, as very few Canadians use the term "Anglo" or "Anglophone" at all; we really just use the term "Francophone" when referring to a French-speaking person, and just otherwise assume that being an English speaker is the default in Canada.

...and THAT, ladies and gentlement, is how you insult a Canadian Francophone without saying anything derogatory or untrue.

And justify our impression that we are not part of the canadian culture.

Or course, Anglo is in much more common use in Quebec, were we assume 'Quebecer' immediatly refers to French-canadians. Weird, eh, how we both seem to be living in distinct cultural world ?

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Nice passing the blame onto me, but it's not so much time as space. I'm talking about the Dutch Republic, you're talking about the Spanish Netherlands, which had two very different policies on the Calvinists. Further, I'm guessing that you were talking about the Puritans whereas I was talking about the Quakers.

I'm not passing blame onto you, I'm directly blaming you for making a mistake, or being deliberately obtuse. Now that you've specifically mentioned the Quakers I can simply say that the Dutch population existed because they were fleeing from English persecution, and that many of them left for America not because they didn't want Dutch children, but because they wanted Quaker children.

And yes, the Dutch Republic and the Spanish Netherlands had very different policies on Calvinists, but when you use the word "Holland" you aren't being clear; especially as regards English immigrants.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Um... you are aware that it's an abbreviation of Nationalsozialistische deutsche Arbeiter-Partei, right? That's pretty much exactly what it means.

First, its an acronym, not an abbreviation. Second, while that was what the acronym specifically denoted in the past, it isn't what the word denotes now. There is a huge difference between an acronym and a word.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Off the top of my head, Samoa?

Funny how there are an awful lot of Samoan Mormons.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Actually, no. What the picture shows is the cultural predisposition to right wing extremism based on the European Social Survey and how 'in demand' right wing politics were at the time the survey was conducted (2010).

Yes, they're well adjusted. The phrase "well adjusted" does not mean "not disposed to right wing extremism". You seem to have this idea in your head* that sentimental questions like the ones posed in the info-graphic (God I hate that term.) you posted don't tend to produce polarizing results whenever they're asked.

*Its alright though, lots of Americans have this weird idea that there is some Utopian "end" to things, where there will be no threat of violence.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

If by a good argument you mean 'not bothering to read what the other guy is saying' then, no, I suppose I haven't. You've accused me of several fallacies, but yourself backpedaled furiously when called out for claiming I said things that I did not.

I've actually not accused you of committing a fallacy in this thread, though if you would like me to start I will; it would make this easier and more entertaining for me. But what I have done it is pointed our where you've made mistakes, or generalized inappropriately (Yes, that is a fallacy, but I didn't use the Latin name, so it doesn't count.).

As for "backpedaling" furiously, where? I admitted my mistakes, pointed out (aggressively) why I made them, and asked for clarification where it was needed. That isn't "backpedaling", that's you inability to carry on a coherent conversation.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

If the idea that people would not find being shown the immoral acts of their government disturbing is the result of ten years of studying ethics and morality, I would have to ask, where at, the Objectivist Institute?

See, here's the problem, you already assumed the acts are immoral.

 azazel the cat wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You were goIng along good there until that very last line: soggy fries are gross.

That means they've been prepared incorrectly!

The fries shall be crispy, and then covered in beef gravy and cheese curds! If the fries have been cut thin and cooked properly, then they shall remain (reasonably) crispy until you are finished eating.

A common mistake is cutting the fries too thick, in which case they become soggy.

If your ever in Quebec, and goes to Quebec city, try some Ashton poutine. It's addictive to the point you'll dream about it.

 Albatross wrote:

Meh, spin the wheel. I've never even heard the second one.

You learn a lot of interesting words as you float around the world. The second one is the Seneca dialect of the broader Iroquois language. It's a generic term for a white man. Both words are only insults when inflected a particular way, it's not even the context, it's how it's pronounced when said.

Ironically, when written, they're robbed of the insult unless further context is given. It's one of the peculiar quirks of certain languages.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:You were goIng along good there until that very last line: soggy fries are gross.

That means they've been prepared incorrectly!

The fries shall be crispy, and then covered in beef gravy and cheese curds! If the fries have been cut thin and cooked properly, then they shall remain (reasonably) crispy until you are finished eating.

A common mistake is cutting the fries too thick, in which case they become soggy.

If your ever in Quebec, and goes to Quebec city, try some Ashton poutine. It's addictive to the point you'll dream about it.

I remember the first time I saw that dish was when I was a youngster out on the town with some friends from Quebec and my family.
We were at a restaurant and they instructed the waitress how it should be prepared. When I saw it brought out, I was going what the...
It doesn't match watching my dad eating Head Cheese with his French friends in our kitchen.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
It's as much an insult as using Franco is a compliment. Which is not. Your reaching.

No, but you are lying, both to me and yourself.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that you DO use "Francophone" as a compliment, much like many people here would use "speaks English" as a compliment when talking about immigrants.

 dogma wrote:

I'm not passing blame onto you, I'm directly blaming you for making a mistake, or being deliberately obtuse. Now that you've specifically mentioned the Quakers I can simply say that the Dutch population existed because they were fleeing from English persecution, and that many of them left for America not because they didn't want Dutch children, but because they wanted Quaker children.

And yes, the Dutch Republic and the Spanish Netherlands had very different policies on Calvinists, but when you use the word "Holland" you aren't being clear; especially as regards English immigrants.

The use of 'Holland' was quite correct and quite clear, as Spanish Netherlands was Belgium, Luxembourg and parts of Northern France. The area of Holland was occupied almost entirely by the Dutch Republic.

 dogma wrote:

First, its an acronym, not an abbreviation. Second, while that was what the acronym specifically denoted in the past, it isn't what the word denotes now. There is a huge difference between an acronym and a word.

Well, first of all, no, the acronym was NSDAP. If you look into the etymology of it, it really is an abbreviation, derived from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist. And it denotes the same thing in English (hence why groups in other locations are 'neo nazis').

 dogma wrote:

Funny how there are an awful lot of Samoan Mormons.

There are an awful lot of Christian Samoans in general. The big secret of the success of Christianity in Samoa was that it actually wasn't that different from preexisting beliefs, it just happened to have Jesus, who's crucifixion made perfect sense as the Samoans already had a belief in self punishment as atonement for either yourself or another. It was, in it's way, very close to the ideal of the melting pot someone brought up earlier, as they tried to incorporate their beliefs into existing Samoan culture and were welcomed in rather than trying to force their faith on a culture that didn't want them at gun/fountain pen point.

 dogma wrote:

I've actually not accused you of committing a fallacy in this thread, though if you would like me to start I will.

 dogma wrote:
You've committed several fallacies, which I've let slide...

 dogma wrote:

See, here's the problem, you already assumed the acts are immoral.

Call me provincial, but generally speaking, murder, torture, and deliberately engineering situations that cause suffering in the name of financial profit are not moral acts unless you want to claim 'enlightened self interest'. Several people not only on this board, but who have posted in this thread, have previously denounced a certain occupation for that reason, among others.

 Melissia wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:
It's as much an insult as using Franco is a compliment. Which is not. Your reaching.

No, but you are lying, both to me and yourself.

I'm sure someone somewhere is willing to give you that much-needed hug, even if it's a starved octopus.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

The use of 'Holland' was quite correct and quite clear, as Spanish Netherlands was Belgium, Luxembourg and parts of Northern France. The area of Holland was occupied almost entirely by the Dutch Republic.

It would have been had you referenced a time period.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Well, first of all, no, the acronym was NSDAP. If you look into the etymology of it, it really is an abbreviation, derived from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist.

No, its an acronym, because what you're describing is literally what an acronym is.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

And it denotes the same thing in English (hence why groups in other locations are 'neo nazis').

Yep, groups in other locations.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

There are an awful lot of Christian Samoans in general.

I'm aware. This draws back to the initial point of this exchange which was the divide between inevitability and acceptability.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 dogma wrote:

I've actually not accused you of committing a fallacy in this thread, though if you would like me to start I will.

 dogma wrote:
You've committed several fallacies, which I've let slide...

Hmm, forgot about that. Well, no point in restraint then.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Call me provincial, but generally speaking, murder, torture, and deliberately engineering situations that cause suffering in the name of financial profit are not moral acts unless you want to claim 'enlightened self interest'. Several people not only on this board, but who have posted in this thread, have previously denounced a certain occupation for that reason, among others.

That's ad populum.

 dogma wrote:


That's ad populum.

Not really. He didn't claim the objective truth of what he was claiming. An appeal by popularity can be a good supporting argument if it's simply to give credence to a tentative position.