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 Testify wrote:
Harker is such a man.

He sure is.

After thinking about it, the difference kind of makes sense. You have a SM scout who is still learning their weapons, could still be adapting to be a couple of feet taller than they're used to (anyone who has gone through a massive growth spurt knows how that can ruin your coordination), and is in basically the reserve corps. Whereas the veterans are proven warriors have used the same weapons for, presumably, years across many battles and worlds. Since BS is more about inherent skill with the weapon and not strength, it works for me.

True. Most scouts in the field are simply "teens" that go through hell in order to learn the skills and implants.

It even says in some older codex that the 16 year old scouts often already have experience enough to rival a seasoned stormtrooper.

 Pyriel- wrote:

It even says in some older codex that the 16 year old scouts often already have experience enough to rival a seasoned stormtrooper.

Considering that a "seasoned stormtrooper" has probably been fighting for more than 16 years, I find that difficult to believe.

 Testify wrote:

 Pyriel- wrote:

It even says in some older codex that the 16 year old scouts often already have experience enough to rival a seasoned stormtrooper.

Considering that a "seasoned stormtrooper" has probably been fighting for more than 16 years, I find that difficult to believe.

Psycho-indoctrination does wonders.

It would be somewhat ubalancing to the game if Space Marine troops were as good as IGuard special characters.


And then they would cost more points. And then you'd have to buy less of them.


The game rules exist to sell the models. They don't exist to provide an accurate or "realistic" depiction of the universe.

 Banzaimash wrote:
After reading Harker's profile page in then IG codex, I found myself thinking that it was rather strange that Harker, essentially a body builder, should be able to fire a heavy bolter on the move more accurately than an 8ft Space Marine in power armour with considerably more strength, training and skill than himself. Your thoughts please.

Because he is an 80's action star (or based upon one anyways).

Considering that a "seasoned stormtrooper" has probably been fighting for more than 16 years, I find that difficult to believe.

Well that is your problem.

Psycho conditioning, a training regime that would kill the toughest of "humans", a tempo that no mortal could possibly ever approach and 2-3 hours sleep per day with all the remaining minutes devoted to either training or battle and a super constitution where broken bones would only present a minor hindrance to the training regime and heal in a few days where a normal human would go nuts from sheer mental stress not to mention needing 8 hours sleep every day, breaks, of duty months/years, time to healing wounds, time of to process and "heal" mental traumas etc etc.

Fluff has nothing to do on the tabletop, remember marines go look at entire planetary populations on the most dangerous death worlds or warlike primitive worlds only to pick a handful applicants now and then and only a few of even those make it through the scout phase.

Harker, if picked up as a child by some chapter would most probably make a good scout and afterwards advance through the upper ranks of the chapter since he seems to be one of those very rare badasses that normally get recruited.

Pyriel- wrote:Fluff has nothing to do on the tabletop, remember marines go look at entire planetary populations on the most dangerous death worlds or warlike primitive worlds only to pick a handful applicants now and then and only a few of even those make it through the scout phase.

Regardless of what some fans seem to believe, requirements for becoming a Space Marine do not actually have to do anything with a population's badassness, but with exactly four factors: Gender, age, tissue compatibility and mental suitability. I recommend you consult Index Astartes I on Marine recruitment procedures. In fact, if you look at the Flesh Tearers background, it specifically says that "Cretacia has provided the Flesh Tearers with a good source of recruits in the past, as the primordial humans make excellent Space Marines: only a small percentage of them reject the genetic modifications that make a Space Marine superhuman, while their simple minds are easily adapted to the martial conditioning all Space Marines aundergo."

So, no, the Space Marines do not take the best of the best and make them better - they simply take whoever makes it and work it from there. However, the genetic disposition of a feral world's population may obviously work in the recruit's favour by making the youngsters somewhat more sturdy than, say, the average Hive dweller of the same age. Yet Catachan is a whole different beast, and once in a while it may breed people like Harker.

Lastly, the fluff has been molded around the tabletop; it's not some alien construct that exists entirely apart from the rules. You may keep telling yourself that the "Movie Marines" rules are how things "should" be and that Space Marines are actually 8, 9 or 11 feet high, but that will quite simply remain your opinion and your personal preference.

requirements for becoming a Space Marine do not actually have to do anything with a population's badassness, but with exactly four factors: Gender, age, tissue compatibility and mental suitability

But they do. They almost entirely recruit from worlds where the population is exceptionally strong with far higher then normal survival instincts. That is just as important as genetic stability. Even the ultras, who dont live on death worlds and have a rather civilized populations that dont live dangerous lives that sees most dead before the age of 10, utilize systems that really go through the population seeking out the very best of them before screening even takes place.

Read up on the BA IA, only the most "badass" of them all (death world) make it through the evaluation process in order to be selected.

Look up space wolf selection. Death world - check! Only the truly exceptional of badasses are noticed - check! Most of even those best of the best dont even make it through initiation training - check!

Overall the theme goes like having a recruitment world that is primitive or deliberately kept primitive and/or warlike (various IA articles plus DW material) in order for the populace to be of an exceptionally hardy stock. Then have the populace "worship" or look up to the chapter actively sending their best and bravest to "trials" where only a few strongest survive and then these are screened for scout selection. After that a few of even these actually survive scout training to become marines.

Pyriel- wrote:But they do. They almost entirely recruit from worlds where the population is exceptionally strong with far higher then normal survival instincts. That is just as important as genetic stability.

Not really. Strength and survival instincts will help once the Marine has been "made", but they won't actually help with who makes it. Space Marines chiefly recruit from Death Worlds because the population there is, to put it bluntly, "dumb enough" to not have their brains explode from the conversion and indoctrination process, which in many Chapters has become somewhat flawed after millennia of mystification and ritualisation and a general decline in technological/scientifical knowledge.

Pyriel- wrote:Read up on the BA IA, only the most "badass" of them all (death world) make it through the evaluation process in order to be selected.
Look up space wolf selection. Death world - check! Only the truly exceptional of badasses are noticed - check! Most of even those best of the best dont even make it through initiation training - check!

What you're missing out on is the realisation that this is a redundant quality control measure established by the Chapter itself (in many cases arguably part of the warrior culture and a matter of pride), not in any way a fundamental requirement. Consider this: The most badass men like Harker might not be able to become Space Marines simply due to tissue incompatibility. On the flipside, this means that the Chapter will have to look for replacement recruits that are compatible. So they will take the next best thing. Thus, the lesser man will become a Space Marine, simply because he has a bunch of different genes that do not actually make him a better warrior but just a human who can be converted into Astartes.
The Astartes could very well recruit Hivers (in fact, I do recall GW fluff saying that some Chapters do just this) and turn them into Marines. Death Worlder kids will likely make stronger Astartes, whereas Hivers may make for more agile or accurate ones? Many such small differences between the various populations are probably made irrelevant by the massive boost they get by becoming Space Marines, though.

Of course, once in a while a Chapter might actually get someone like Harker who does make it. Needless to say, this wouldn't be the standard (Harker isn't standard either, after all), and thus the average Space Marine can actually be "worse" in some regards. "Harker-Marines" would undoubtedly be those rare guys who may go on and become a hero of the Chapter some time down the road.

Scouts are newbs. Veterans have been fighting for 15-20 years. Marines don't have a monopoly on bad-ass, you know

The Monopoly Part was extremely well said and sometimes i think forgotten




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so just throwing this out there....
Sure Speh Mehreens are " Badass " but just think... catachans do the same thing... goto deathworlds and do the impossible except they dont need the adimantium or the combat juice like the marines( still getting the job done ).... the marines are man made badass's where's catachans are natural born badass.... hence why they dont necesarily follow higher command...

and harker is like there chaplain

so in conclusion we shouldnt see another space marine codex but a catachan one!! haha

I think the best example of a Harker-Marine in the current fluff would be the Arjac Rockfist. He was a beast before he was indoctrinated and now he is a veritable juggernaut. If Marine Power armor+training adds +1S/+1T Arjac would be s4t3 before it as well.

Scouts are newbs. Veterans have been fighting for 15-20 years. Marines don't have a monopoly on bad-ass, you know

You have obviously played to much DoW.
Read up on the fluff and tell me exactly where it says that full scouts are noobs.

Not really. Strength and survival instincts will help once the Marine has been "made", but they won't actually help with who makes it. Space Marines chiefly recruit from Death Worlds because the population there is, to put it bluntly, "dumb enough" to not have their brains explode from the conversion and indoctrination process,

And still all chapter-recruitment fluff clearly states the primary reason being the hardy stock with superior survival instincts breeded into the populace.

Have you read the chapter IA articles (canon fluff) or later deathwatch background on chapters?

There is a strong physical need to have a sturdy stock to recruit from as well as a mentally "uncivilized" to ease transition true but only a few chapters recruit from civilized worlds (ultramarines) where the vast majority prefer physical stock over anything else. As for the transition being easier with a "dumb" populace that is pretty much moot since they take children 6-10 year old and in some cases chapters even take babies (from warlike societies made warlike on purpose - deathwatch) letting them grow up "in-house" so to speak for even better indoctrination. The very young age and psycho conditioning means nothing of the past (dumb vs civilized) remains. This is why marines are just as uncaring about their childhood past and upbringing no matter if they came from violent but civilized Nostromo, educated and civilized Mcraggae or as in the vast majority, primitive, death world warrior societies.

There is no fluff at all supporting that dumb vs civilized children make any sense at all relative the "mind exploding" from to much cultural shock at being induced into the chapter whereas almost all (not all) canon as well as novel fluff on neophyte selection are primarily based on physical pedigree (death world, survivalist, strong, warlike culture).

What you're missing out on is the realisation that this is a redundant quality control measure established by the Chapter itself (in many cases arguably part of the warrior culture and a matter of pride), not in any way a fundamental requirement. Consider this:

Now I get your point and I agree. It is an unnecessary thing yes, there is no actual need to recruit from warlike deathworld stock BUT I am not talking about what is needed, I am talking about what IS being done in the 40:th millenium.
The fact still remains(like you said), due to superstition, tradition etc etc 99.9% of all chapters stick hands down to selecting from primitive warlike societies o n l y looking at physical strenght, bravery, genetic adaptability.

Yes, with this method a ton of possible recruits that could have become perfect marines are overlooked, you are right.
The fluff also supports this with things mentioning a different recruitment process to the Emperors own Custodian guard super-marines being made marines well into their later age.
There is even one particular piece of fluff (Abnett) that mentions some of the Black Templar crusades having the means to transform grown up men into space marines with no negative side effect.
BUT, it also contradicts fluff on really old selection back where legions were started (and thus not suffering from traditions and superstitions) that clearly states that to old men (meaning not children) could not be made into fully fledged marines but became half effective or died in the process (or suceeded despite being to old). (Dark angels and space wolf fluff has this).

It could be legion specific though with some legions having the knowledge and some not but that doesnt sound particularly logical.

Thus, the lesser man will become a Space Marine, simply because he has a bunch of different genes that do not actually make him a better warrior but just a human who can be converted into Astartes.

The only canon fluff on this (lowering the standards in the event of severe losses) where replacements need to be brought up fast is not to ease on the compability but to induce not yet finished scouts into full marine status.
Thus a lowering of skill and not genetics.
Well yes the wolfs and Ravens did that once resulting in wulfen and monsters but I view that as an abnormality.

The Astartes could very well recruit Hivers (in fact, I do recall GW fluff saying that some Chapters do just this)

True. The most notorius of all those chapters are the Imperial Fists, thy recruit from the hive Necromunda (and also from Terra itself if I remember correctly) but again, even in these instances (and the fluff is very clear about this) the hivers selected are underhive gang scum, the most violent and dangerous individuals where again, the primary "need" is for the chapter to select strong individuals from a stock with proven superior survivability.

If you want to go to even older fluff on this then chapters used to select from grown up prisoners and yet again, no care was ever made on said prisoners mental education or level of civility but on sheer brutality, survivability and fighting prowess.

But as you have mentioned, these things ought to be irrelevant since the geneseed alters the body so much nothing original even remains, the mind and mentality however should be what is the most important thing (and maybe it is in the selection aspect of "beavery").
We have examples from the BA where complete physical wrecks, radiated, sick, miserable individuals are turned into perfect killing machines by the geneseed and the same geneseed in otehr BA sucessor chapters like the flesh tearers alter perfectly healthy and strong candidates into...the exact same killing machines. Thus fluff, canon fluff even, proves amongst other your point in that the physical state of the pre-scout is totally irrelevant.
But as I said myself, this is not what is actually happening.

Of course, once in a while a Chapter might actually get someone like Harker who does make it. Needless to say, this wouldn't be the standard (Harker isn't standard either, after all), and thus the average Space Marine can actually be "worse" in some regards. "Harker-Marines" would undoubtedly be those rare guys who may go on and become a hero of the Chapter some time down the road.

I agree 100% with you.
But , even an individual who at birth is weaker and genetically inferior to one "Harker baby" will become inhumanly superior to said grown up Harker after gene seed implantation and training. Space marines, even "common" ones are on a totally different level then a mortal, even a Harker one with tons of muscle etc.
Skill wise the Harker type can very well be better then a "new" marine since the Harker type has extreme experience in a given environment (in his case, death jungles) but even those special nieches will soon be overtaken by the "normal" marine as he gains decade after decade of experience in a tempo of training and battle that would kill the Harker type since he is after all...only human.



Thanks for the debate by the way, it is really fun to talk to you about these things and you have made some really good points that made me thing, keep it up

Harker is better because he has skillz. A Space Marine has brute strength. But Harker has skills, experience and precision. Essentially, he's Rambo. But awesomer to the max.

Pyriel- wrote:Read up on the fluff and tell me exactly where it says that full scouts are noobs.

He does have a point, sort of. Being a Scout is basically the Space Marines' Prep School, and the experience they collected before being recruited will be of some use, but considering the doctrinal differences between a Chapter of Adeptus Astartes and a Hive gang or a bunch of Feral World barbarians armed with clubs and spears, it is new territory for them.
Psycho-indoctrination should be able to ease the transition, however, with much knowledge being lasered directly into peoples' brains.

Pyriel- wrote:And still all chapter-recruitment fluff clearly states the primary reason being the hardy stock with superior survival instincts breeded into the populace.

Naturally, but only because the Space Marines believe that it would somehow make for better Marines, not because it would make for more Marines.
The stuff about "better Marines" might actually be true, but as mentioned before, the differences would probably be somewhat negligible and largely based on the subjective opinion of people who don't really understand the tech they're working with.

Pyriel- wrote:Have you read the chapter IA articles (canon fluff) or later deathwatch background on chapters?

If you are referring to the Index Astartes articles, then yes.
With the "Deathwatch background", are you referring to FFG's RPG? If so, then no. I see how much FFG's vision deviates from GW's own position, so personally I do not value those books as a source but stick solely to GW publications. Gives me a greater consistency.
Selection of choices is a huge problem in the fandom, and undoubtedly a source of a great many misunderstandings. I have a feeling that our opinions differ because of this, too.

Pyriel- wrote:There is a strong physical need to have a sturdy stock to recruit from

No, not at all. Otherwise the Index Astartes article would have pointed it out, considering the level of detail it goes into.

Pyriel- wrote:There is no fluff at all supporting that dumb vs civilized children make any sense at all relative the "mind exploding" from to much cultural shock at being induced into the chapter whereas almost all (not all) canon as well as novel fluff on neophyte selection are primarily based on physical pedigree (death world, survivalist, strong, warlike culture).

See, this is what I meant when I mentioned GW's vision being different from the individual ideas of the various writers who work on licensed products.

"The third consideration is mental suitability. The catalepsean node, occulobe, and sus-an membrane will only develop to a useable condition under the stimulus of hypnotic suggestion. A recruit must therefore be susceptible to this particular treatment. [...]"

"Although the Chapters are careful to select only the most suitable candidates, not all neophytes survive to become initiates. This is due in part to the degeneration of knowledge amongst the individual Chapters that makes screening procedures less effective than they once were. Nor are operational methods entirely satisfactory in some cases. In many Chapters, implant surgery is heavily ritualised and often accompanied by scarring, incantation, periods of prayer, fasting and all sorts of mystical practices which compromise medical efficiency."

From the Index Astartes I.

Pyriel- wrote:The fact still remains(like you said), due to superstition, tradition etc etc 99.9% of all chapters stick hands down to selecting from primitive warlike societies o n l y looking at physical strenght, bravery, genetic adaptability.

That's not what GW says, though there are undoubtedly some Chapters that operate this way. Needless to say, their recruitment statistics would be suitably abysmal, except for those cases of sheer luck where a native population may sport a higher rate of compatibility.

The fact remains that Space Marine Chapters incur casualties. Of course the first step is, as you said, to promote Scouts into full Space Marines. Yet obviously this cannot go on forever, lest your Chapter will run out of Scouts pretty soon. And so a Chapter will have to come up with a minimum recruitment rate of Neophytes to secure its future, which means either adapting their selection process or ... well, refraining from going to battle until their numbers have recovered. But regardless of what they do, they cannot turn every individual they'd wish to recruit into a Space Marine, they can only take the best of those who are compatible. Which tends to be a very small part of the population, again going by GW sources.

Pyriel- wrote:There is even one particular piece of fluff (Abnett) that mentions some of the Black Templar crusades having the means to transform grown up men into space marines with no negative side effect. BUT, it also contradicts fluff on really old selection back where legions were started (and thus not suffering from traditions and superstitions) that clearly states that to old men (meaning not children) could not be made into fully fledged marines but became half effective or died in the process (or suceeded despite being to old).

See, perfect example for what I mentioned about outsourced products presenting a different idea than GW.

Pyriel- wrote:But , even an individual who at birth is weaker and genetically inferior to one "Harker baby" will become inhumanly superior to said grown up Harker after gene seed implantation and training. Space marines, even "common" ones are on a totally different level then a mortal, even a Harker one with tons of muscle etc.

Aaaaand this is where interpretation kicks in. Whilst I will agree that a Space Marine will ultimately be physically superior, this superiority does not have to extend to any and all areas concerning combat. I see this a lot - fans taking that "Space Marines are better" would supposedly automatically mean that "they are better at everything". They're not. Well, unless you look at the aforementioned outsourced products.

Also, the term "mortal" is actually a good hint at a certain degree of distortion concerning your perception of Space Marines. Space Marines are not immortal. Their lifespan may be 2-3 times higher than that of a normal man, and they may require a greater beating to kill, but in the end they will still die just like anyone else. It is primarily the novels and computer games that promulgate a much more heroic version of the Astartes as "gods of the battlefield" - the result obviously being that people are convinced that they are not strong enough on the tabletop just because a freelance writer thinks he has to make them better than GW themselves intended. This includes the height issue that Jes Goodwin joked about in the podcast when he said that they (the Marines) get progressively bigger with every Black Library book.

Pyriel- wrote:Skill wise the Harker type can very well be better then a "new" marine since the Harker type has extreme experience in a given environment (in his case, death jungles) but even those special nieches will soon be overtaken by the "normal" marine as he gains decade after decade of experience in a tempo of training and battle that would kill the Harker type since he is after all...only human.

Quite possibly, but the average Scout and Devastator Marine may both lack these decades. Both positions are said to be "rookie jobs" within the Chapter, after all.

Pyriel- wrote:Thanks for the debate by the way, it is really fun to talk to you about these things and you have made some really good points that made me thing, keep it up

Whew, no problem.
I just fear that this is largely an issue resulting out of us "growing up" on different books. 40k having no canon means that there's a lot of individual interpretation running rampant, with us fans and gamers just as much as with various freelancing authors. Needless to say, this makes discussions difficult - we each defend a perfectly valid view of the setting, and none of us is "wrong". We're possibly just not 100% on the same common ground, if that makes any sense.

A lot of arguments here center on Harker's experience, how old and how long do you people think he's been fighting for?

 Lynata wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:There is no fluff at all supporting that dumb vs civilized children make any sense at all relative the "mind exploding" from to much cultural shock at being induced into the chapter whereas almost all (not all) canon as well as novel fluff on neophyte selection are primarily based on physical pedigree (death world, survivalist, strong, warlike culture).

See, this is what I meant when I mentioned GW's vision being different from the individual ideas of the various writers who work on licensed products.

"The third consideration is mental suitability. The catalepsean node, occulobe, and sus-an membrane will only develop to a useable condition under the stimulus of hypnotic suggestion. A recruit must therefore be susceptible to this particular treatment. [...]"

"Although the Chapters are careful to select only the most suitable candidates, not all neophytes survive to become initiates. This is due in part to the degeneration of knowledge amongst the individual Chapters that makes screening procedures less effective than they once were. Nor are operational methods entirely satisfactory in some cases. In many Chapters, implant surgery is heavily ritualised and often accompanied by scarring, incantation, periods of prayer, fasting and all sorts of mystical practices which compromise medical efficiency."

From the Index Astartes I.

That doesn't prove your point on the subject needing to be dumb. It's saying that the chapters apothecaries are dumb. It's talking solely about how the chapters apothecaries knowledge has degenerated, not requiring a less intelligent mind to work on.

-Loki- wrote:That doesn't prove your point on the subject needing to be dumb. It's saying that the chapters apothecaries are dumb. It's talking solely about how the chapters apothecaries knowledge has degenerated, not requiring a less intelligent mind to work on.

The first sentence talks about the intelligence bit, the second section was about how the creation process has become less and less scientific over the ages.

I've already quoted something about "the subject being dumb" earlier, but here it is again:
"Cretacia has provided the Flesh Tearers with a good source of recruits in the past, as the primordial humans make excellent Space Marines: only a small percentage of them reject the genetic modifications that make a Space Marine superhuman, while their simple minds are easily adapted to the martial conditioning all Space Marines aundergo."

I suppose it may be debatable whether "dumb" is an accurate term, but the subject's mental capacities need to be malleable and open to hypnotic suggestion. In other words, it seems as if people who have a more developed mind might subconsciously resist this process. I suppose the exact tolerance levels may differ depending on the Chapter and to which degree their technology has degraded.

Their simple minds are easily adapted to the martial training. What this says to me is that its easier to train someone who doesnt have a whole lot on his mind, not that their stupid. Look at every story where they are try to teach a kid/young adult... well anything. They dont want to listen because they are used to all the crap they do, who wants to become a "hero" (hard work) when you can play with plastic space men . I have no doubt that the trials most chapters put their canidates through have a fair share of puzzles to test thier mental apitude also, after all they are not just strong theyre smart too.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/simple-minded

Well, we can also just chalk that up as a matter of interpretation, I guess.

Regarding "smart" Space Marines, I'm fairly convinced that they will only become smart thanks to the indoctrination, flash-training and decades if not centuries of experience, but when it comes to their recruits... come on, they are basically rounding up tribal barbarians and ghetto kids here, and the sources I've read are fairly clear about which attributes are considered important.

Anyhow, what would you even do if your best warriors, those few who managed to succeed in the physical trials, fail at your puzzles? And what when the smart recruits aren't strong enough? Would you further lower your requirements?
Thinking about it, I guess it's not out of the question that some Chapters - those not too fixated on the unnecessary warrior trials - might try to find some "middle ground". Probably the Chapters which recruit from the more civilised worlds, whose cultures will also place more value in cleverness. But ultimately you will have to compromise somewhere ... there will be no "nerd quarterbacks".

Ah but your talking death worlds here, everyone is physically "better" than normal therfore the thing that would make them better is their mental aptitude. remember the gene seed increases every physical attribute but not mental ones, that all in the teachings of the chapter and you cant teach a mentally deficent individual to be intellegent or witty or quick that ability has to be present already.

 Pyriel- wrote:

You have obviously played to much DoW.
Read up on the fluff and tell me exactly where it says that full scouts are noobs.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Scouts#.UEsHcrJlSAo

First words:
"Scouts are the new recruits of a Space Marine chapter"

New recruits. Noobs. New guys.

Also, when are scouts mentioned in DOW? It's been a fair few years since I played the story line games (the original and winter assault), I don't remember scouts being mentioned in particular.

 Testify wrote:

First words:
"Scouts are the new recruits of a Space Marine chapter"

New recruits. Noobs. New guys.

It is important to note that a "newbie" Space Marine still has a ton of experience compared to a regular trooper. He's been raised from childhood to be a warrior. So even if he's just dropped into the Scout company, he's not a boot fresh out of basic.

It's probably fair to assume that Space Marines spend a fair number of years in the Scout Companies. The average real world Special Operators (SEALs, Delta Force, SAS, etc) don't have decades of experience. They might have a decade if they are veterans. It's the level of training and the difficulty of selection and the wealth of shared experience that makes them what they are. The average Space Marine Scout is probably on their level by the time he makes it to the Battle and Reserve companies, so leading up to that, he's close.

AndrewChristlieb wrote:Ah but your talking death worlds here, everyone is physically "better" than normal therfore the thing that would make them better is their mental aptitude.

Yes, and it has to be low enough so they are susceptible to hypno-suggestion, as GW said. This is not what makes them better warriors, it makes them better Space Marine candidates.
And no, people aren't "equally badass" just because they come from a Death World. You will still have those that stand out and those who won't even see their 10th birthday. See Catachan. I think it's safe to say that many Chapters would prefer the former to the latter, regardless of how smart he is.

AndrewChristlieb wrote:remember the gene seed increases every physical attribute but not mental ones, that all in the teachings of the chapter and you cant teach a mentally deficent individual to be intellegent or witty or quick that ability has to be present already.

No it does not. Where did you read this?
Again, the Astartes prefer feral barbarians - to suggest that this stock of recruits already has the innate ability to become as smart as what is essentially a modern day warrior within a matter of years just because of the knowledge beamed into his skull is ... well, it just doesn't seem very feasible to me. Also keep in mind that the children recruited are still growing, so their bodies may be easily enhanced by the gene-therapy. This does not only extend to his muscles - how intelligent a person can be is also dependent on the structure of his brain. When it comes down to it, even cleverness is a physical attribute somewhere.

"The various implants cause vital changes in a Marine's physique and mental state."
- Index Astartes I : Recruitment and Initiation

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is important to note that a "newbie" Space Marine still has a ton of experience compared to a regular trooper. He's been raised from childhood to be a warrior. So even if he's just dropped into the Scout company, he's not a boot fresh out of basic.

Well, I'd say that depends a lot on a Chapter's battle doctrines. A Space Marine Scout "has been raised from childhood to be a warrior" for a feral tribe hunting bears with a spear and a knife. That may not translate so well to shooting people with sniper rifles and heavy bolters or utilising advanced battle tactics. It's obviously an advantage, but many of these years will ultimately be wasted - though this is of course not how people within the setting will actually see it.

 Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is important to note that a "newbie" Space Marine still has a ton of experience compared to a regular trooper. He's been raised from childhood to be a warrior. So even if he's just dropped into the Scout company, he's not a boot fresh out of basic.

Well, I'd say that depends a lot on a Chapter's battle doctrines. A Space Marine Scout "has been raised from childhood to be a warrior" for a feral tribe hunting bears with a spear and a knife. That may not translate so well to shooting people with sniper rifles and heavy bolters or utilising advanced battle tactics. It's obviously an advantage, but many of these years will ultimately be wasted - though this is of course not how people within the setting will actually see it.

As always, mileage may vary, but it seems to be the industry standard to start selecting recruits at age 6-7, and the chapters that utilize older recruits (like the Space Wolves) are the exceptions, not the rules. In fact, there's no real advantage to waiting. They need to find kids who are genetically compatible with the implants, free of mutation or other taint, and perhaps screen them for baseline mental traits.

Otherwise, their bodies are crafted by constant training and biological modification. It doesn't matter if you are getting the scrawniest kids or the huskiest. They're all going to end up 7 feet tall and built. Their killer instincts are going to be honed by repetition of combat tasks and psychological conditioning. Their combat skills honed through endless drilling. Their psychological endurance honed by various trials. Their minds sharpened by lessons, puzzles, and other challenges. Waiting until later doesn't make any sense. Any time past early childhood that isn't spent being indoctrinated is time wasted in the developmental cycle. The Space Wolves may (foolishly) place value in their traditions, ultimately, the Ultramarines' model is the superior one, and it has shown in the comparative advantage the Ultramarines seem to enjoy everywhere except in the poorly balanced table top codex books. Nevermind that the Ultramarines model as set forth by Guilliman is the nearly universally accepted standard.

Normal Space Marine recruits will be drilling with real and mock weapons from the beginning, not scrabbling around the surface of some death world with a stone knife. Remember, the Space Wolves are .1% of Space Marine Chapters. The Ultramarines and their successors are over 60%, and the vast majority of the remaining 30-39% are still Codex Chapters, at least in terms of recruiting, indoctrination, and training, if not organization. I'd imagine most planet based chapters would have "civilized" home worlds, as that benefits them the most by having the largest pool to draw recruits from. Having a death world like Fenris is actually relatively useless, since the skills the recruits as small children learn are largely irrelevant in the long run. You can foster killed instinct just as easily through training as through an uncontrolled and unmoderated process like feral tribal warfare/survival. The Space Wolves live on Fenris by accident of history. When selecting a homeworld for a newly created chapter, there's no incentive for the Admech to put them at a disadvantage by issuing them a planet with limited human capital.

YMMV indeed, I am willing to bet Cadian Whitehelm are as skilled as a scout, what with being able to strip a lasgun & co at the age of 10 or sooner.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:As always, mileage may vary, but it seems to be the industry standard to start selecting recruits at age 6-7, and the chapters that utilize older recruits (like the Space Wolves) are the exceptions, not the rules.

According to the Index Astartes, the creation process begins at age 10-14. Which kind of makes sense, as personally I'd have a difficult time accepting that young kids age 6-7 are already known as famous warriors in their tribe.
Whether this waiting time is because a child's body is unable to endure the intense modifications, or because the various Chapters are not thinking objectively and are looking for martial heroes rather than just compatible candidates ... I guess both explanations would make sense, though I think I would lean towards the latter.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Waiting until later doesn't make any sense. Any time past early childhood that isn't spent being indoctrinated is time wasted in the developmental cycle.

Yes. Since when do things in 40k have to make sense? The creation of a Space Marine being shrouded in mystery and superstition, and made less efficient by silly rituals that actually endanger the candidate's life without any benefit to the Chapter, is (I think) part of the overall theme.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'd imagine most planet based chapters would have "civilized" home worlds, as that benefits them the most by having the largest pool to draw recruits from.

Codex says the majority recruits from death worlds, though, for the aforementioned subjective and nonsensical reasons. Here, too, it would be part of the theme. The Astartes aren't meant to be 100% efficient. No Imperial army is. Hell, the Navy reloads giant cannons by hand, the Imperial Guard sends infantry tramplers to clear a minefield for their precious tanks, and the Sororitas' equipment is 50% bling, 50% useful. Isn't this part of what makes this setting so Grimdark!

But as you said, mileages may vary. It all depends on which books you're looking at, as the different sources can do a great deal about forming one's perception of the setting. Not to mention that there are so many things simply open to interpretation, which is where personal preferences would kick in. Some like their Space Marines to be more epic and godlike, others like them to be more gritty and flawed.

Harker's abs have the same protection as advanced body armor from one of the most advanced races in the galaxy

Reading this made me think of how much more awesome the Expendables would be featuring Harker.