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Hi DakkaDakka, I just got the 6th Ed. rulebook and a couple of things have stumped me.

I have googled and searched several forums, but haven't been able to find an answer to them.

My first question is:

When a unit's entry in a codex states that a model can take a "power weapon", are you allowed to model them with a choice of your own? Does this mean I could choose to give a power lance as the power weapon choice for my biker sergeant?

My second question is:

Do the new power lance rules overrule the hunting lance rules for the Rough Riders found in the Imperial Guard codex? Which takes precedence?

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this, and thanks in advance for your answers.

Marsden

The Hunting Lance will be an unusual Power Weapon I guess. I can't see it in the FAQ so if it is it will be AP3 on the charge with whatever other benefits it gives.

The Hunting Lance for Imperial Guard aren't power weapons

Simple answer to the first question is yes. Whatever the weapon is modelled as will go into one of the catagories so that is the type you must use.

 Marsden wrote:
When a unit's entry in a codex states that a model can take a "power weapon", are you allowed to model them with a choice of your own? Does this mean I could choose to give a power lance as the power weapon choice for my biker sergeant?

See the Axe Mortalis and the DCA power weapon threads for more information. Most people have no problem with you modeling a generic power weapon how you want, some argue that yo are MFA.

Do the new power lance rules overrule the hunting lance rules for the Rough Riders found in the Imperial Guard codex? Which takes precedence?

Since the Hunting Lances have additional unique rules associated with close combat, they are unusual power weapons that follow their own (additional) rules.

I'd say its a power lance on that ONE Turn it is a Power Weapon. Makes sense.

A hunting Lance is a UNIQUE POWER weapon and is subject to its own rules as outlined in the Gurad codex.

it turns into a power weapon. Thats it. It has no additional effects.

 Bloodhorror wrote:
it turns into a power weapon. Thats it. It has no additional effects.

Only on the model's first charge of the game. That is pretty unique to me. It is similar to the Eldar Laser/Star Lance which are only power weapons only on the charge.

Asked and answered before...

The power weapon rule says to look at the model and use the profile based upon what it is carrying. It does not say you can model it as you wish, that should be addressed(hopefully) in the FAQ.

And a hunting lance is not a power weapon, it is its own kind of weapon.

Thanks for clarifying this everyone. You have all been extremely helpful.

Just to clarify, I'm not intending to model for advantage, I simply thought that power lances would look cool on my Iron Hunter Huntsmaster. (I'm playing the Tyrant's Legion anyway, it's not an army you play if you are a win at all costs player! Haha!)

I'll have a read over those threads you recommended Happyjew.

...has no one here read the IG codex?
"When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and Iniative 5".

Sounds pretty clear to me. Not an unusual power weapon, "counts as a power weapon" does not equal unusual. Similar wording in the Deamon Codex.

I guess you could make a case for saying that since they have lances, that'd actually make them S6 on the charge and AP4.

Right Power Weapons that are Str and Init 5 on the charge. Normal Power Weapons are not Str/Init 5 on the charge.

 Testify wrote:
...has no one here read the IG codex?
"When they charge into close combat, a unit armed with hunting lances counts as being armed with power weapons that strike at Strength and Iniative 5".

Sounds pretty clear to me. Not an unusual power weapon, "counts as a power weapon" does not equal unusual. Similar wording in the Deamon Codex.

I guess you could make a case for saying that since they have lances, that'd actually make them S6 on the charge and AP4.

Counts as a power weapon, correct. That also gives Str and I bonuses? A unique close combat rule.
That's definitely more than enough to make them unusual power weapons.

Happyjew wrote:
Right Power Weapons that are Str and Init 5 on the charge. Normal Power Weapons are not Str/Init 5 on the charge.

That's a bonus to the attacker not the weapon. Banshees do not have unusual power weapons because they strike at I10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

That's definitely more than enough to make them unusual power weapons.

See above. No boost to the weapon, only the weilder.

 Testify wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Right Power Weapons that are Str and Init 5 on the charge. Normal Power Weapons are not Str/Init 5 on the charge.

That's a bonus to the attacker not the weapon. Banshees do not have unusual power weapons because they strike at I10.

Banshee's get the bonus from their masks, not their swords. 2 different pieces of wargear.
The Hunter Lance gives them the Str and I boost.

It is clear as day that the weapon has 'further special rules' which means you can never look at the model for any reason.

It is also clear as day that the weapon has unique close combat rules... so it is an unusual power weapon. Giving the wielder +str doesn't mean it isn't an effect of the weapon. Almost all 'effects' and 'special rules' impact the wielder in some way...

How the heck are you reading

Testify wrote:That's a bonus to the attacker not the weapon.

From

Testify wrote:"...power weapons that strike at Strength and Iniative 5".

It directly states that the S5/I5 is a property of the power weapon, right there in your own quote.

Testify wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
Right Power Weapons that are Str and Init 5 on the charge. Normal Power Weapons are not Str/Init 5 on the charge.

That's a bonus to the attacker not the weapon. Banshees do not have unusual power weapons because they strike at I10.

If you read the rule you quoted, it says pretty clearly that the weapon counts as a power weapon that strikes at strength and initiative 5. It certainly is a bonus to the weapon, as indicated by the word "that" (which grammatically must refer to the weapon).

nkelsch wrote:It is clear as day that the weapon has 'further special rules' which means you can never look at the model for any reason.

That might make moving the model rather difficult...

Pyrian wrote:
How the heck are you reading

Testify wrote:That's a bonus to the attacker not the weapon.

From

Testify wrote:"...power weapons that strike at Strength and Iniative 5".

It directly states that the S5/I5 is a property of the power weapon, right there in your own quote.

I may have been smoking crack earlier. It appears I miss-read

Yep, i'll throw my vote in that a weapon that is only a power weapon on the charge, but one that further sets the models' strength and initiative statistics to 5 for that turn regardless of what they otherwise would be is pretty unusual... (aka: an unusual power weapon: AP-3 and any other characteristics listed in it's rules-text).

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The power weapon rule says to look at the model and use the profile based upon what it is carrying. It does not say you can model it as you wish, that should be addressed(hopefully) in the FAQ.

False. GW gives me different options to model my weapons. By your logic I can't modify my Space Marine Sergeant to have a Power Weapon, even though the rulebook says he can have one. And my Damned Sergeant can't take a Power Fist because the only model that they sell has a Power Sword. Being able to modify your model to have what you want it to have is not breaking the rules, as long as your codex says you can take that particular piece of equipment. It says my Sergeant can take a Power Weapon, and since the only Sergeant models that exist have Power Fist or Chainsword I cannot give my Sergeant a Power Weapon? You, sir, are wrong. Good luck telling me I cannot give my models equipment my codex says I can give them. Codex > you.

Besides, who's really going complain about a Power Lance? +1 Str/AP3 on the charge only? Feh, I say, Feh!

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The power weapon rule says to look at the model and use the profile based upon what it is carrying. It does not say you can model it as you wish, that should be addressed(hopefully) in the FAQ.

False. GW gives me different options to model my weapons.

False... GW gives you no such permission in thier ruleset. An unspoken social convention from the collective wargaming community gives you the implied permission you may modify your model. Your comparisons to powerfists fail as your codex actually gives you explicit permission to own a powerfist, it does not give explicit permission to own a power axe, simply a power weapon and 'look at the model'. It is implied you are allowed to model it as you see fit... until GW limits the options as they have done for many units... Opponent permission withstanding as all conversions are pending opponent or TO approval.

nkelsch wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The power weapon rule says to look at the model and use the profile based upon what it is carrying. It does not say you can model it as you wish, that should be addressed(hopefully) in the FAQ.

False. GW gives me different options to model my weapons.

False... GW gives you no such permission in thier ruleset. An unspoken social convention from the collective wargaming community gives you the implied permission you may modify your model. Your comparisons to powerfists fail as your codex actually gives you explicit permission to own a powerfist, it does not give explicit permission to own a power axe, simply a power weapon and 'look at the model'. It is implied you are allowed to model it as you see fit... until GW limits the options as they have done for many units... Opponent permission withstanding as all conversions are pending opponent or TO approval.

False. The fact that they do not sell a model that has the options I can purchase means I must be allowed to modify my models to have the model represent the wargear I can legally purchase. It says I can take a Power Weapon for my Tactical Sergeant. Which type of Power Weapon can I take? The model I can buy has no Power Weapon, so if you are right which Power Weapon can I give my Sergeant? A sword? An axe? A lance? Or can I not give my Sergeant a Power Weapon because it is not clear which weapon he can take? If you tell me I cannot modify my Sergeant to have a Power Axe then you are breaking a rule in my codex. You do not have permission to tell me I cannot take wargear my codex says I can take; and I do not get to just say his Chainsword is a Power Axe, I have to represent the gear on the model. Face it, you are wrong.

Now this is not to say that you can modify Dante to have a sword. If the weapon is what it is you cannot just change it. But if it is legal to take a generic power weapon I get to pick which weapon I take.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
The power weapon rule says to look at the model and use the profile based upon what it is carrying. It does not say you can model it as you wish, that should be addressed(hopefully) in the FAQ.

False. GW gives me different options to model my weapons.

False... GW gives you no such permission in thier ruleset. An unspoken social convention from the collective wargaming community gives you the implied permission you may modify your model. Your comparisons to powerfists fail as your codex actually gives you explicit permission to own a powerfist, it does not give explicit permission to own a power axe, simply a power weapon and 'look at the model'. It is implied you are allowed to model it as you see fit... until GW limits the options as they have done for many units... Opponent permission withstanding as all conversions are pending opponent or TO approval.

False. The fact that they do not sell a model that has the options I can purchase means I must be allowed to modify my models to have the model represent the wargear I can legally purchase. It says I can take a Power Weapon for my Tactical Sergeant. Which type of Power Weapon can I take? The model I can buy has no Power Weapon, so if you are right which Power Weapon can I give my Sergeant? A sword? An axe? A lance? Or can I not give my Sergeant a Power Weapon because it is not clear which weapon he can take? If you tell me I cannot modify my Sergeant to have a Power Axe then you are breaking a rule in my codex. You do not have permission to tell me I cannot take wargear my codex says I can take; and I do not get to just say his Chainsword is a Power Axe, I have to represent the gear on the model. Face it, you are wrong.

Now this is not to say that you can modify Dante to have a sword. If the weapon is what it is you cannot just change it. But if it is legal to take a generic power weapon I get to pick which weapon I take.

Actually, people disagree with your interpretation on multiple levels as many claim he has an unusual power weapon due to further special rules and others say you can't modify him to have anything but an axe. And sice GW has not given any of us explicit permission, we really have no official guidance and it boils down to what you and your opponents agree on. you do not have any permission to choose any weapon. Your codex doesn't say "may choose any of the following, axe, sword, lance maul" so you have not been given explicit permission which boils down to war gamer social convention, not RAW.

Then answer the question. Which Power Weapon can I give to my Sergeant? Or can I not give my Sergeant a power weapon at all? Repeating the same fallacious argument is not adding to the discussion. Address the points I have made, please.

nkelsch wrote:
you do not have any permission to choose any weapon. Your codex doesn't say "may choose any of the following, axe, sword, lance maul" so you have not been given explicit permission which boils down to war gamer social convention, not RAW.

*Sigh*

This again? There is no rule in the rulebook against modelling for advantage either (except for modelling with the appropriate bases of course). Therefore, the rule against MFA is just wargamer social convention too.

However, there is a rule in the rulebook which says "look at the model" to see what kind of power weapon it is. This is equivalent to "WYSIWYG" for power weapons. They mean look at the assembled model - because the "RULES" section of the book applies to assembled models. Since I may assemble my models as I see fit, when you look at my model you will see the power weapon option that I have CHOSEN to model.

You say that I can't choose which type of power weapon to model on my SM seargent. But then which Power Weapon am I supposed to model on my Sergeant? The choice has to be made before the model is assembled obviously - who gets to choose?

 Grugknuckle wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
you do not have any permission to choose any weapon. Your codex doesn't say "may choose any of the following, axe, sword, lance maul" so you have not been given explicit permission which boils down to war gamer social convention, not RAW.

*Sigh*

This again? There is no rule in the rulebook against modelling for advantage either (except for modelling with the appropriate bases of course). Therefore, the rule against MFA is just wargamer social convention too.

However, there is a rule in the rulebook which says "look at the model" to see what kind of power weapon it is. This is equivalent to "WYSIWYG" for power weapons. They mean look at the assembled model - because the "RULES" section of the book applies to assembled models. Since I may assemble my models as I see fit, when you look at my model you will see the power weapon option that I have CHOSEN to model.

You say that I can't choose which type of power weapon to model on my SM sergeant. But then which Power Weapon am I supposed to model on my Sergeant? The choice has to be made before the model is assembled obviously - who gets to choose?

But then we have what we have in this thread... Disagreement of players of what 'should' be allowed. We already had one of 'Of course I can model my Sargent anyway I want, but I totally see how Dante has an axe'.

Really? Some people feel Dante can have any weapon you choose. And now we have a difference of opinion in how we apply 'look at the model' and how the game 'should be played' and none of the sides have explict permission the same way 'you may have a power fist for X points' does. Also, we have a whole mess of where 'look at the model' except when you can't look at the model or when the unit has had it's options defined. It is a crappy worded rule to help make a transition from 5th to 6th which should have been replaced with a clear FAQ for every weapon option ever. We are already seeing Power Weapon charts for tourneys which distinguish which models can have which weapon types because there is so much ambiguity and difference of opinion on special characters, 'unique' weapons, unique close combat rules, special rules, unusual power weapons, differences with the Idex and so on.

Which is why you should discuss pre-game because you are using a weapon option which isn't explicitly granted permission by the rulebook. It is an implied permission by friendly gamers filling in a hole in the codex which makes it different from the explicit weapon options. One person's Axe dante is another persons mace dante vs another persons unusual PW dante. I already met a poor guy who had converted Axe Lychguard and had his first experience with the Idex

No one has explicit permission to do anything when it comes to Power weapon types right now. Accept it is a grey area and most people agree on the easy stuff like Sargent's. Discuss the outliers with your opponent.

It is not implied permission. It is explicitly given permission when they say I can take a Power Weapon but don't specify which weapons I can specifically take.

Special characters with special unique weapons are a different story. Dante has an Axe, the name of his weapon says so. Modeling Dante's axe to be a sword would not work as he has an axe. In that case the rules HAVE told you which Power Weapon you can take so you cannot change his weapon on a whim, the rules tell you what that character has.

Kantor has a power fist. Other Chapter Masters can take other weapons, but he cannot. It is not an option for him. Dante is the same. He ha an axe and cannot change that. See the difference?