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So, I've started playing orks more lately, and while I don't have much, I've got nobs and boyz. I've been running all shoota boys right now, and while the boyz themselves are really good, I'm really stuck on what to do with the nobz in the unit. Used to be, they were awesome with a klaw and a BP, but now, they're the only character in the unit. I had a mob get attacked by mephiston (with iron arm no less) last weekend, and the nob literally didn't get a single swing in. Mephiston kept challenging the nob, and nob had to hang back. Since Mephiston was always T8 or above, the boyz couldn't hurt him. So they sat in combat for over half the game, and I had no way of taking mephiston out.

Are nobz just not worth it in shoota mobz now? None of my nobs in shoota mobs have gotten to do anything in 6th so far, and it's really bugging me. These guys are costing a good 50 points or so, and if all they're going to do is sit in the back of the mob or die every assault, then I may stop running them. Is there something I'm missing here? Should I run just plain old mobs with no nobz whatsoever? I'm really stuck guys.

Any ideas?

Can you give them shooty upgrades? I'd think a big shoota would go well with all those boyz if you have the option to take one.

If the Nob got challenged, then you'd get a re-roll for every 5 boyz (at least I think it's 5) in the squad to hit or to wound. Plus you can LoS! the wounds he gives away (or at least try to).

You can give him one of the big shootas you buy, if you really wanted to.

For 46 points, the Nob with PK and BP is fairly good. If you get tank shocked, it'd be pretty darn useful to use that nob as well!

You can't use LoS! in a challenge. Meanwhile, the nob is I1 with his klaw, and mephiston is something rediculous like I6. As Moustaffa said, it wouldn't even get a chance to swing. Instead, it would just keep boy casualties down briefly, while losing the pole. The problem wasn't how Moustaffa reacted (as tarpitting is probably the best he could have hoped for) so much as 6th ed close combat.

Another one to consider is the rokkit (once again, I don't know my ork codex). Given that 50% of the time that the nob hits he causes a precise strike, it might be something worth looking into.

Dr. What wrote:
If the Nob got challenged, then you'd get a re-roll for every 5 boyz (at least I think it's 5) in the squad to hit or to wound. Plus you can LoS! the wounds he gives away (or at least try to).

You can give him one of the big shootas you buy, if you really wanted to.

For 46 points, the Nob with PK and BP is fairly good. If you get tank shocked, it'd be pretty darn useful to use that nob as well!

The problems are:

1. We only get the reroll if the guy we challenged is the ONLY surviving member of his unit, or a MC. If you're in combat with an IG blob for example, you would get no rerolls, as there are 20+ guardsmen fighting your boys. However, if the commissar was the sole survivor, yes, you would get the rerolls.

2. I don't think you can LoS! in a challenge. The whole idea is that these guys are having a seperate battle seperate from the swirling melee around them. If we can't precision shot out of challenges, I doubt we can look out sir as well. I'll have to reread the rules though to be sure.

3. Yes, he can take shooty upgrades, but that doesn't save the problem I have now, where the nob is getting knocked out of combat by challenges. @Ailaros, it'd be like us trying to buy gun upgrades for a commissar in a blob, it doesn't help in assault. However, I will throw the big shoota on the nob as I've been meaning to do that for a while now.

The problem is, I'm paying all these points for this big shiney power klaw, and he can't use the friggin thing. I'd almost rather just shave them out of the boyz mobs, and put them towards a proper nob squad, which has no problem with challenges. Unless I chuck a warboss in with the mob or something, I can't add extra characters. And since the regular nob can't get access to FNP or cybork, he has no way to survive a challenge against any sort of power weapon. Heck, even a guard sargeant could beat a nob in a challenge one on one if he had a maul. That should give you an idea of why I'm kind of stuck at the moment.

Oh, didn't realize on that (fairly certain I need to re-read the rules again).

Is your only problem Mephiston though?

Dr. What wrote:
Oh, didn't realize on that (fairly certain I need to re-read the rules again).

Is your only problem Mephiston though?

Last game was, but it only highlights the problem I would've run into in any other situation. What would I do if I ran into an emperor's champion? Or a space marine captain? Or one of those space wolf elite sarge guys? Or even a guard blob with power weapons? The problem is that, while the nob has 2 wounds, his armor will not save him from any power weapon, his two wounds aren't enough to survive the unsaved hits, and he has no invuln or feel no pain to speak of. He literally has no way to survive the challenge. And if he declines, you're left with trying to have the boyz pick up the slack, which we all know is a bad idea.

My guard blobs got around this by having a good 4 to 5 characters to a unit. Challenges were no biggie, because I could throw a sarge at it and have the rest of the blob maul the unit (which I used to good effect against single character units more than once) Being on the giving end of this scenario, it really drove home that any close combat unit relying on just one character to do damage is suicide. If your opponent really want's to screw you over, he can. Unless you ran into a space marine with an axe, odds are you're losing the nob.

So is there something I'm missing here, because aside from tossing the occasional vehicle into the sun and holding a BP, nobz don't seem very helpful in boyz mobs anymore. I may run them barebones with a big choppa, big shoota, and boss pole, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to keep buying a power klaw I'll never get to use when I need it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The problem is, I'm paying all these points for this big shiney power klaw, and he can't use the friggin thing.

That is precisely your problem. You are spending points for an upgrade that is only going to get any use against things that it way, way overkills.

So, the first thing you should do is drop the klaw. End of.

The question then becomes, do you need a nob? If there is still a reason to take a nob (for example, you really want the bosspole), then take a nob, regardless of how you care to arm him. If you don't think you need a nob (once again, ignore his weapon upgrade potential for a moment), then just don't take nobz in your boy mobs any more.

If you have decided that the nob is worth taking on account of being a nob, only then does it become a question of how to arm them. First, of course, you should not even bother considering weapons you will never get to use, or will scarcely ever use. Then you look at what is left. The rest of the squad is devoted to shooting. How do you best match the nob's weapon with the needs and the purpose of the squad he's attached to. A need-based reason may be a rokkit, as it would give your boyz SOMETHING to do in the face of a vehicle wall. A synergy-based reason might be a big shoota as he adds even more dakka of the same type, and more dakka is good.

What weapon to take will therefore be determined by what you're going for, whether flexibility, killing power, or whatever.

In any case, it doesn't make any sense to compare what weapon to take now with the value that you used to get out of the klaw. Those memories are now useless to your current decision, as you no longer have access to that kind of value.

The problem is, boyz units WILL end up in close combat at some point. Which means they need something. Which leads to the next problem. For a nob, he's either got a klaw, a big choppa, or nothing. A big choppa is only 5pts, but you get what you paid for. It only gives you +2 S, and no AP. It gives you something for vehicles, but that's about it. It solves none of my other close combat problems though.

As for a rocket, it'll only hit 1/3 times, and if you're having an entire boyz mob shooting at a vehicle, you're wasting a lot of shots. I'd rather take rokkits in other areas where they can be taken advantage of. Big shoota though works great. 1/2 times you're getting a 6, which isn't shabby at all.

All said though, it still leaves me with no real solution except to put in a warboss. But I cant take one of those for every mob. So I'm realy stumped at this point. I'll try a bigchoppa nob with a big shoota, but I doubt this will solve my problem...

MrMoustaffa wrote:The problem is, boyz units WILL end up in close combat at some point. Which means they need something.

Do they?

Shoota mobz relied on a single hidden weapon upgrade to be anything useful in close combat. Welcome to 6th edition...

I'd focus less on how to get your shootas to be sufficiently choppy, and move the "good enough in CC" role over to a support unit. Rather than trying to make them anything good in close combat, it might be better to cut the losses and rely on other units to bail them out of a CC disaster in the making.

As you mentioned, it might be much better to have a boss attached to a unit of klaw nobs than a boss and a klaw nob in one of each shoota mob.

The problem is, your getting your brain ina knot over Mephiston. The guy is probably broken, if not, damn close to it. Your boyz mobz are going to run into that from time to time, just stick with the PK. Youll also run into situations where youll wish you had it. So just keep denying challenges from things that are going to curb stomp your nob.

Your looking at it totally wrong too, your seeing it as "Oh boohoo! I wasted half the game figuring out I cant beat Mephiston with a boyz unit!" Where as I would look at it as "feth you BA player, my boyz tied Mephiston for half the game BWAHAHAHA!!!!!" See the difference? I tried a few games at the beginning of 6th with nobs only having the Bigshoota, and I constantly missed having the PK. Just suck it up and take it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, dont EVER stick a Boss in with a nob mob. Its overkill to the extreme for one, and you run into that whole all your eggs in one basket thing. Make sure they are separate always.

KingCracker wrote:So just keep denying challenges from things that are going to curb stomp your nob.

But there's a lot out there that can kill a single nob before it gets a chance to swing.

Seems like taking a klaw is a lot of points to spend on a unit that can deny challenges just as well without one.

Oh I meant for the boss in the boyz mob, sorry if I wasn't very clear.

On the whole klaw thing, yes the boyz did a great job at tying him up, even with him at S8 T8 all game, so maybe I should look on the bright side. The problem is that mephiston isn't what I'm worried about. I'm woried about everything else. It's just that all it takes is one character to single out the nob, and take him out of the game.

I'll try em with klaws for a bit longer, but i'm still unsure if they'll see much action. If they don't work though, what's a good way around the problem?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: Something I just realized that I goofed on, was that when you deny a challenge it's the highest Ld Unit that goes to the back. I had a big mek in that unit with a burna. he should've been the one sent back each time, meaning the nob would've been able to fight!

I think with some proper positioning you can avoid challenges you don't want.

Just keep your nob 3 inches away from the closest of your own models that can be assaulted. The nob will pile in and fight at initiative 1.
And challenges are issued at the start of the fight sub phase. So you nob will be immune to challenges because he is not in base contact with enemy models and he is out side the 2 inch engagement zone. Look at page 64 of the BRB. Under accepting challenges. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challengers."

So your nob can hide behind the boys and then pile in with in 2inches of the enemy on his initiative of 1 to make his power klaw attacks.

Firstly, that's pretty YMDC. Whether or not a model is engaged isn't determined until their initiative step. By your reasoning, challenges would never be able to be issued in the first place as nobody starts out a fight phase engaged (determining who is engaged would only happen after the challenge is issued).

I'm pretty sure the intent of the rule was to say that those who can't fight at all, perhaps because they have a WS of 0, or because they are affected by a special rule like terror, then they can't accept a challenge. Not being able to accept a challenge because "they're slow" doesn't make much sense, especially since the rules then go on to say that when a challenge occurs, models affected get a free move to get close to each other.

In any case, even if you were right, it would only keep the nob alive exactly once - he would just get challenged again at the beginning of the next fight sub-phase.

According to page 23 of the BRB. Under the " Who can fight" paragraph.

"A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During it's initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During it's initiative step, it's with in 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat"

So this says any models in base contact and within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with the enemy is engaged.

It is pretty clear that a model not in base or within 2" of a friend in base is not engaged in the combat.

If GW intended it that way or not I am not sure. I am just going with what the book has in it.

Also the book says that you make your charge move into contact before challenges are made because challenges are issued at the beginning of the fight sub phase. After you move the chargers you will have models engaged or it will be a failed charge.

I believe the above is a valid tactic for ork players to get more use out of their nobs before they get removed.

You missed it in your own quote. DURING ITS INITIATIVE STEP.

That's when you decide if a model is engaged or not. Challenges are issued before the first initiative step is resolved. Therefore, challenges can never be issued or received, because no one is engaged at the beginning of the fight phase - it happens later.

Or you could change your reading of who can receive a challenge to be that "those who can't fight, regardless of if they're engaged or not" rather than "those who can't fight, including for the reason that they're not engaged". But that, of course, would negate this strategy.

Just as a random question, whats got you so interested in orks all the sudden Ailaros? I didn't know you played them.

As for the challenge bit, it is very badly worded. I had this exact question come up last weekend and we had no idea how to resolve it. It's not clear at all, like most of the assault rules, and its hard to tell what they intended there. I hope they come up with a FAQ soon...

I don't.

It was more "Oh, Moustaffa made a post. Click." than necessarily any particular understanding of the codex itself. I can't give specific advice, but I can certainly guide people through general questions to help them figure things out on their own.

I'll admit, I also have some sympathy for green tide players. Broken assault horde commanders have gotsta have the solidarity, yo.

It may be more advantageous to run with 2 or 0 characters in a squad - perhaps run without a nob on certain boys squads, looking to use them to tarpit the monster characters - 2 nobs with power claws are the same cost as a small boys squad. On other squads run with a vanilla nob to accept charges where necessary, but add the warboss to the unit to deal with the little challenges. It may be a case of go big or go home.

The other option is to take nobs out of the squads and give them a squad of their own.

As to anti vehicle I agree with nob with a rocket launcher is just not worth it. 1 nob with a power claw = 2 cannons or a rocket copter if it needs to be mobile - no precision shots, but still probably a better solution.

 Ailaros wrote:

KingCracker wrote:So just keep denying challenges from things that are going to curb stomp your nob.

But there's a lot out there that can kill a single nob before it gets a chance to swing.

How much of that "lot" is an expensive HQ model? How many of those are in risk of potentially failing to do so and then getting instant-deathed by a S8 powerklaw?

Currently my squad leader nobz all get 'eavy armor solely for the reason to discourage non-combat characters from attempting to snipe them. Works pretty good for me so far. There is no point in fighting dedicated combat characters with a nob ever though.

well, by "lot" I mean "anything that strikes before I1".

You could, indeed, mitigate some of these problems with better armor, but then you're also making the nob more expensive. Sounds like throwing good points after bad to me.

Paying 5 points means that most squad leaders are no longer reliably able to kill the nob. Risking your sergeant (and thus LD9) to wound 25% of his attacks is a whole world away from risking that same character to wound 12.5% of the time.

Most marine characters have three or four attacks, the chance of killing an unwounded nob with those is 15% or 26%. 'eavy armor drops that to 4% or 8%, putting your opponent in a place where he is better off directing all those attacks against your boyz than attempting a futile lob at your nob. If he picks up power weapons just to counter those 5 points, you're ahead again points-wise anyways.

Ailaros - There is also "a lot" of things out there that the Nob will most likely survive to get his PK attacks, and you can pretty much guarantee that whatever it is, will be dead when its all over. And again, if your being challenged by a CC monster, just keep denying the challenge and then enjoy having your boyz be fearless for awhile and soak up those wounds, further tying up said CC monster. Its a win/win either way you slice it.


Warboss Brokentoof - Yes, there is a chance you can position your Nob in such a way that in the initial charge, he will be outside the challenge range (currently, that will probably be FAQed) so he will get his charge attacks into the squad being charged. PRoblem is, thats pretty unlikely. Most times youll be on a WAAAGH! when charging and chances are good with rerolls that your charge will be pretty far. And since "You must move all models as close to base to base as possible" on a large charge, your Nob will more then likely be in challenge range. VERY situational at best.


Also dont feel bad for us Ork players, we got some pretty good buffs in 6th, specially us shooty Ork players. The last few games Ive played, my assaults were actually down by about half as much as I used to assault in 5th. Im loving it right now

Just another idea if your feeling that your Nobz need a bit of a armour boost...

Take Mad Doc Grotsnik as one of your HQ's and then Cybork up the Nobz 5++

@Ailaros, ah ok. i dont know why but that was buggin me

As for the whole nob thing, I like the idea of the 2 characters or none approach. If the single nob doesn't work out, I think this will be next thing I try. Some boyz mobz with just boyz and a barebones nob for the bosspole and shoota, and then whichever mob I stick my boss and mek in will have nob bodyguards.

In that game with mephiston, I forgot to mention that at the end of the game, my second boyz mob with my boss got charged by mephiston. Warboss challenged, and while he didn't kill Mephiston, he got very close. The nob didn't get to do anything, but had there been a squad there as well he would've been really handy.

Only problem is I only have 40 boyz at the moment, so it'll be a while before I can get my orks up to a proper amount. I'm just starting them, and like IG, I'm having to relearn the game with a whole new army. So that's part of the problem as well. I mean, I'm so new to orks I've only remembered my WAAAAGH! once

 Warboss Brokentoof wrote:
I think with some proper positioning you can avoid challenges you don't want.

Just keep your nob 3 inches away from the closest of your own models that can be assaulted. The nob will pile in and fight at initiative 1.
And challenges are issued at the start of the fight sub phase. So you nob will be immune to challenges because he is not in base contact with enemy models and he is out side the 2 inch engagement zone. Look at page 64 of the BRB. Under accepting challenges. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challengers."

So your nob can hide behind the boys and then pile in with in 2inches of the enemy on his initiative of 1 to make his power klaw attacks.

I'm sorry but, I don't think the nob would get a 3" pile in move because he wasn't involved in the combat. He was in the unit, but not the combat. The assault steps go basically:

1. Move troops in together during charge move.
2. Then you look at what models are potentially involved in the combat. Models in Base to base and models within 2" of models that are base to base with enemy. Thats your pool of combatants. You make challenges against any of those guys.
3. Then you start the Initiative count down and fight for that pool of models. Each model gets a pile in move when his I comes up.

If your unit is so large, that you have models outside the 2" radius they do nothing during the combat. If you positioned your nob outside the combat to begin with, he never gets involved with the pile in move when I of 1 happens. So he can't suddenly move up and enter combat. He was never in the combat at the start.

He's part of the unit, not an independent character, so if he is withing 2" of a model in B2B at his initiative step he gets to fight.

Back to the question of including one or not, I've found instances for an against, so I take a mixture now.

I run a 30 strong mob with 3 big shootaz and Nob with PK and tag a Weirdboy on to them (He's part of a 2 Dakka Jet list so I'm rooting for that Waagh) if they deepstrike on to the enemy flank having that PK there makes them a serious threat that won't be ignored and forces the enemy to split fire/movement etc.

I also run 1-2 mobz of 20 in a BW, here I don't bother with the Nob, just truck the BW around shooting stuff with the Boyz and running things over. Similarly, if I play larger games I like to use a large mob to camp and objective in which case I just use Boyz and keep a counter charge unit, like Nobz near enough that they can lend a hand when needs-be.

Overall you're paying 40 points for a Nob+PK+BP, 45 with Eavy Armor which is actually useful now, and they just aren't as durable as they used to be, so just use them sparingly.

Mephiston can not be considered broken when has been nerfed. If assaulted by meganobz he will die all too easily, not suggesting you do this more that he can be be killed admittedly it is a lot harder for orks.

Take the nob, you can avoid the challenge first round of combat. In most challenges he does all right, mephiston will kill you. Moreover mephiston will slowly kill you.

At the end of the day bosspole and klaw gives the mob flexibility.

MFletch wrote:Mephiston can not be considered broken when has been nerfed.

He most certainly can.

"Worse" is not analogous with "bad".