What do I do with the nobs in shoota boy mobs?

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**Crimson-King2120**

just shoot mephiston 30 shoota boyz out a ridiculous amount of firepower plus overwatch. And whilst mephiston is tied up the rest of your army can stomp the rest of his army flat

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
just shoot mephiston 30 shoota boyz out a ridiculous amount of firepower plus overwatch. And whilst mephiston is tied up the rest of your army can stomp the rest of his army flat

Edited by Mannahnin

Anyway man i will give you my opinion of your problem I didn't read a chunk of the middle but Mephy is a power special character of the Blood Angels, you shouldn't think What am I going to do against him when you could just simply challenge him with the appropriate squads He hit you were it hurt the most CC. If anything Mephy needed to wipe the whole unit to make his pts back and that shoudl have given you 3-4 rounds of CC to tar pit him. Personally the best way to run this unit is to backing up from Mephy or outright avoiding him if you don't at least have a Warboss to meet him in close combat with.

Otherwise he just hit you right and it's a bad way to feel but he was specialized against you that match, it's why GW needs to pull all T8 models in the game (looking at you Wraithlords...) Other than that best advise i could give you would be just allowing the tarpit to happen and hope he kills himself from psyker tests or rolls low enough that your boys can hurt him that round (it is a d3 t upgrade while under IRON ARM) A tarpit at least is a wash you should have had plenty of time to focus on the rest of his army at that point. Shoota boyz are where it's at without question but Mephy might have left a bad taste in your mouth and you learned a painful lesson (Mork knows I have too)

If you see him coming always shoot him with deff gunz, big shootas and kannons he is more than likely the scariest thing on the battlefield no matter what the blood angels are throwing at you, I agree he is a little too good for his pts but tarpit is still viable and should be considered. ALL ORKS ARE EXPENDABLE at the end of the game

**MrMoustaffa**

Ok, so to clear some things up, Mephiston himself is not what I'm scared about. What I'm scared of is the fact that ANY character can come in and pull off what he did. Mephiston just happened to be the one that exposed this flaw, and brought it to light. It could have easily been Marbo, or a daemon prince, etc. etc.

What I'm concerned about is dealing with ANY character like that, as all they have to do is keep challenging the nob and forcing him to the back. That's what this thread is about more or less, how to deal with that, and whether a power klaw nob is worth it when he's going to get sent to the back 9 times out of ten against things he matters for.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Ok, so to clear some things up, Mephiston himself is not what I'm scared about. What I'm scared of is the fact that ANY character can come in and pull off what he did. Mephiston just happened to be the one that exposed this flaw, and brought it to light. It could have easily been Marbo, or a daemon prince, etc. etc.

What I'm concerned about is dealing with ANY character like that, as all they have to do is keep challenging the nob and forcing him to the back. That's what this thread is about more or less, how to deal with that, and whether a power klaw nob is worth it when he's going to get sent to the back 9 times out of ten against things he matters for.

I agree we are HORRIBLE challengers but then again man... not many special characters are like Mephy... mephy is T:6 for gork's sake no body but Nids is like that! The PK is suppose to now be used primarily on vehicles now, running into something T8 is just insane in this edition as is.

**Farseer Mael Dannan**

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

T 8 is immune to S4 dummy, did you read the post?

Anyway man i will give you my opinion of your problem I didn't read a chunk of the middle but Mephy is a power special character of the Blood Angels, you shouldn't think What am I going to do against him when you could just simply challenge him with the appropriate squads He hit you were it hurt the most CC. If anything Mephy needed to wipe the whole unit to make his pts back and that shoudl have given you 3-4 rounds of CC to tar pit him. Personally the best way to run this unit is to backing up from Mephy or outright avoiding him if you don't at least have a Warboss to meet him in close combat with.

Otherwise he just hit you right and it's a bad way to feel but he was specialized against you that match, it's why GW needs to pull all T8 models in the game (looking at you Wraithlords...) Other than that best advise i could give you would be just allowing the tarpit to happen and hope he kills himself from psyker tests or rolls low enough that your boys can hurt him that round (it is a d3 t upgrade while under IRON ARM) A tarpit at least is a wash you should have had plenty of time to focus on the rest of his army at that point. Shoota boyz are where it's at without question but Mephy might have left a bad taste in your mouth and you learned a painful lesson (Mork knows I have too)

If you see him coming always shoot him with deff gunz, big shootas and kannons he is more than likely the scariest thing on the battlefield no matter what the blood angels are throwing at you, I agree he is a little too good for his pts but tarpit is still viable and should be considered. ALL ORKS ARE EXPENDABLE at the end of the game

Pulling them from the game? Riiiight. They have no invuln to avoid small weapons fire, and are expensive units. It's your problem if for some reason you can't deal with this. I can understanding being a bit butt-hurt if someone surprises you with him but really...after one game against them they can be downed for their point cost effectively.

Also, you could look into anything AP2 in your Ork book as Meph doesn't have the Invuln to protect from them.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

T 8 is immune to S4 dummy, did you read the post?

Anyway man i will give you my opinion of your problem I didn't read a chunk of the middle but Mephy is a power special character of the Blood Angels, you shouldn't think What am I going to do against him when you could just simply challenge him with the appropriate squads He hit you were it hurt the most CC. If anything Mephy needed to wipe the whole unit to make his pts back and that shoudl have given you 3-4 rounds of CC to tar pit him. Personally the best way to run this unit is to backing up from Mephy or outright avoiding him if you don't at least have a Warboss to meet him in close combat with.

Otherwise he just hit you right and it's a bad way to feel but he was specialized against you that match, it's why GW needs to pull all T8 models in the game (looking at you Wraithlords...) Other than that best advise i could give you would be just allowing the tarpit to happen and hope he kills himself from psyker tests or rolls low enough that your boys can hurt him that round (it is a d3 t upgrade while under IRON ARM) A tarpit at least is a wash you should have had plenty of time to focus on the rest of his army at that point. Shoota boyz are where it's at without question but Mephy might have left a bad taste in your mouth and you learned a painful lesson (Mork knows I have too)

If you see him coming always shoot him with deff gunz, big shootas and kannons he is more than likely the scariest thing on the battlefield no matter what the blood angels are throwing at you, I agree he is a little too good for his pts but tarpit is still viable and should be considered. ALL ORKS ARE EXPENDABLE at the end of the game

Pulling them from the game? Riiiight. They have no invuln to avoid small weapons fire, and are expensive units. It's your problem if for some reason you can't deal with this. I can understanding being a bit butt-hurt if someone surprises you with him but really...after one game against them they can be downed for their point cost effectively.

Also, you could look into anything AP2 in your Ork book as Meph doesn't have the Invuln to protect from them.

My point exactly the Wraithguard and WraithLords are stupidly dated, They need to give them a statline closer to a Hellknight, Trygon ect Invulnerables and points hike them to match. It's not butthurt infact I laugh at Wraithlords with my current list but for many many many players how there they have NO options to deal with these incredibly dated beasts, they are tougher than c'tan shards, chaos gods and ...well you name it. This isn't what i imagine when i use to play eldar i imagine a wraithbone golem with a few weapons... yes it should draw fire but it shouldn't be seen as 100% superior to the Avatar in my mind. Avatar is a better balance but it can't simply stroll through armies troops as thogh they were nothing nobody does that anymore.

Also if you think we have Ap 2 weapons you are familar with the Ork Codex, the only things we do are completely hazardous to use. Shokk attack gun, Zzap Gun and Kustom Mega Blastas, each of these weapons are more likely to kill the unit before it even hurts Mephy. While a valid option it is a gambit with literally no flexibility or purpose other than that (with the expect perhaps of the Shokk attack gun... but even then...)

Personally on the wraithlord I would be fine to see T6 or 7 with invunls and maybe even a HQ like the bonesinger who could give it regeneration and/or FNP.

Wraithguard... they are simply slowed statlines which can be shot to death but their toughness again doesn't match any other army in the slighest a clear sign the 4th ed codex needs a desperate revision.

**TedNugent**

"Boyz couldn't hurt Mephiston and just sat there in combat the entire game."

Sounds like you just tarpitted one of the most expensive HQs in the game.

**KingCracker**

Wurrzog - Calling people names is not only against the rules, but is totally not necessary. If the guy didnt know, he didnt know. Relax.

And yea, Id just tarpit Mephiston and be done with him. 20+ boyz would take him awhile.

**Mannahnin**

As discussed, you can avoid the challenge for the first round by careful placement.

Every squad upgrade character has this issue now, when confronted with an IC who has higher Init that they do and a power weapon. I used to take a power fist on my blood angel squad sgts in 5th too, but now that's basically a recipe for death if I come up against an HQ character. It's not just Orks. You need to either avoid the character, or pair your nob with an IC who can take on the models the Nob can't fight.

On the plus side, Nobs still usually win against other squad-upgrade characters. If you're up against a SM Sgt, you usually both kill each other, but you have slightly better odds of surviving because he has fewer attacks, and thus a better chance to miss you completely. If the Sgt has a power weapon, with your 2W and T4, your chances are actually pretty darn good that they'll fail to land two wounds, and leave the Nob alive to kill him with the klaw.

Klaw nobs are no longer auto-includes, but are still well worth considering. For some units, it'll be more effective to go without, or just leave the nob naked. You can then use him strategically to absorb a character's attacks to keep a few more models from your unit alive and reduce CR against you, while waiting for your own counter-charge unit (like a warboss, or meganobs) to come kill the character and save your scoring unit.

**Ailaros**

Mannahnin wrote:As discussed, you can avoid the challenge for the first round by careful placement.

But the rules aren't that clear. I don't know if getting into a rules fight every game you play is worth it just to keep a klaw.

Especially when its in a squad of shootas, which won't be doing well in close combat anyways.

**MrMoustaffa**

To be true, they do tarpit like champs now. I think I've been approaching this the wrong way.

Perhaps keep some sort of decent countercharge unit nearby. When something scary charges into said boyz squad, have the nob at the back, and deny challenges. Run up your support unit (nobz, manz, Warboss, what have you) and charge them in as backup. By that time, your nob should be able to join in, and you can crush the offending unit.

Perhaps that would be a good way to handle said problem? A warboss on a bike would easily be able to cover a huge chunk of your deployment, and would probably be just about all you need to break all but the scariest of close combat monsters...

**Ailaros**

MrMoustaffa wrote:Perhaps that would be a good way to handle said problem? A warboss on a bike would easily be able to cover a huge chunk of your deployment, and would probably be just about all you need to break all but the scariest of close combat monsters...

Good idea.

Wait, I feel like I've heard this before...

Ailaros wrote: Rather than trying to make them anything good in close combat, it might be better to cut the losses and rely on other units to bail them out of a CC disaster in the making.

**MrMoustaffa**

Ailaros wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:Perhaps that would be a good way to handle said problem? A warboss on a bike would easily be able to cover a huge chunk of your deployment, and would probably be just about all you need to break all but the scariest of close combat monsters...

Good idea.

Wait, I feel like I've heard this before...

Ailaros wrote: Rather than trying to make them anything good in close combat, it might be better to cut the losses and rely on other units to bail them out of a CC disaster in the making.

Dangit Ailaros be quiet, I'm trying to brain today. Don't steal my glory!

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

KingCracker wrote:
Wurrzog - Calling people names is not only against the rules, but is totally not necessary. If the guy didnt know, he didnt know. Relax.

And yea, Id just tarpit Mephiston and be done with him. 20+ boyz would take him awhile.

My bad I meant it teasingly won't happen again

**KingCracker**

I can tell ya, a Biker Boss is a fething shining champ in most challenges. Unless the weapon in question has the ID rule attached to it, you dont have to worry much about power weapons and fists and the like, because you just take it. Then clobber whatever just tried stabbing you with a glowing sword. Or a MegaBoss is another good option, because 2+ is a really nice save now, since only a few CC weapons can ignore its saves. So your choice is either slow and REALLY survivable, or fast and super tough. LAtely, Ive been going fast and tough, its hilarious watching hand fulls of dice be thrown out because in most cases your opponent needs 6s to wound

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
Wurrzog - Calling people names is not only against the rules, but is totally not necessary. If the guy didnt know, he didnt know. Relax.

And yea, Id just tarpit Mephiston and be done with him. 20+ boyz would take him awhile.

My bad I meant it teasingly won't happen again

Hey dont feel bad, we all get carried away

**Code**

Crimson-King2120 wrote:
just shoot mephiston 30 shoota boyz out a ridiculous amount of firepower plus overwatch.

No, they just put out a ridiculous amount of DICE. Lots of dice is not lots of firepower!
While rolling 60 dice might look scary, the number really doesn't mean anything. It's what you need to roll with those dice that matters. 60 shots, 5+ to hit, 6 to wound and then a 2+ save amounts to almost nothing. Don't be fooled by huge numbers, just do the math.

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Code wrote:
Crimson-King2120 wrote:
just shoot mephiston 30 shoota boyz out a ridiculous amount of firepower plus overwatch.

No, they just put out a ridiculous amount of DICE. Lots of dice is not lots of firepower!
While rolling 60 dice might look scary, the number really doesn't mean anything. It's what you need to roll with those dice that matters. 60 shots, 5+ to hit, 6 to wound and then a 2+ save amounts to almost nothing. Don't be fooled by huge numbers, just do the math.

I don't agree with you, I've done the math and it works VERY well for me in games but not against t8.

When I am taking down Lone Wolves in Terminator armor from 1 round of shooting from 1 squad of boyz and no assault you know you've done something right

60 shots = 20 hits = 10 wounds = nearly 2 fails guaranteed (statistically speaking) with only a 33% chance to pull it out of the fire with FNP. Nah shooting boyz at things is damned scary.

**KingCracker**

I agree. Making something with a good save make that save many times is definitely how I do it. Why else are boyz the perfect anti terminator unit then? They wouldnt be according to you Code, yet EVERY single time, Ive charged terminators, they die to my attacks, and I only use shootas. So I get to pour a crap load of shots into a unit first, and THEN assault with a crap load of hits. Volume of dice rolled is indeed a powerful tool

**MrMoustaffa**

Oh yeah I'm familiar with that. Before I picked up orks, I cut my teeth on Foot Guard. Nothing teaches you the value of death of a thousand cuts like FRFSRF'ing lasguns

I'm just not used to the idea that I can shoot everything AND assault. That's an insane amount of dice, even to a guard player.

**Code**

KingCracker wrote:
I agree. Making something with a good save make that save many times is definitely how I do it. Why else are boyz the perfect anti terminator unit then? They wouldnt be according to you Code, yet EVERY single time, Ive charged terminators, they die to my attacks, and I only use shootas. So I get to pour a crap load of shots into a unit first, and THEN assault with a crap load of hits. Volume of dice rolled is indeed a powerful tool

I was referring to Shootas vs. Mephiston. Wounding on 6 and wounding on 4+ is a big difference. On average it's 10 wounds vs. 3,33 wounds.
And putting 3,33 wounds on a 2+ save model just isn't a "ridiculous amount of firepower". It's just lots of dice. A Dark Eldar Venom does the same thing with only 12 dice.

**Mannahnin**

Ailaros wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:As discussed, you can avoid the challenge for the first round by careful placement.

But the rules aren't that clear. I don't know if getting into a rules fight every game you play is worth it just to keep a klaw.

I do think the rules are that clear. You may need to teach them to some opponents, especially in the first few months, but that's usually the case.

**Ailaros**

Mannahnin wrote:I do think the rules are that clear. You may need to teach them to some opponents...

... which proves my point...

Ailaros wrote:I don't know if getting into a rules fight every game you play is worth it just to keep a klaw.

**Jayden63**

Where are all these guys who can take down a nob?

DE - Sarabites, arcothists, Heckatrixs, etc. - Most have 4 attacks on the charge, most need 4s or 5s to wound and hit on 4s. Even with agonizers, your probably not going to die.

SM - Sargents, wolf guard, etc. 4 attacks on the charge, 4s to hit, 4s to wound, if they bought a power weapon your still going to walk away with 1 wound.

Tau - Umm... yeah right

Eldar - See DE

And if any of the above guys take a P-fist to try to get S8, then your just going to have to look at it as simultaneous death - probably a points wash as base 16-18 points plus 25 for the fist. Pretty close to our nobs in cost.

But yeah, CC monster HQs and other elite HTH guys are going to tip the challenge scale in their favor. But then again, that is their job, that is why they cost a lot of points in the first place.

I don't see why one, two, or three really bad threats on the other side of the table would talk you out of taking our power house killers. S8 ap 2 on a guy with base 3 attacks is nothing to shurk away from. Even when the nob is killing kroot, I've never wished I had something other than a P-claw, because cleaving into that broadside team just 10" away next turn is going to be so sweet.

**Ailaros**

Well, anything with an I better than 1 stands a chance at knocking him out.

Of course, the real problem is keeping the entire mob alive, moreso than keeping just the nob alive (though you missed things like barrage weapons, or the new wound allocation (esp. vis. a vis. deepstrikers), or any of the ways you can get precise shot/strike).

Plus, you've got a close combat upgrade on a unit that is trying as hard as possible to stay out of close combat (against something so scary in CC that you'd need a klaw) so that they can do more shooting. Back when they were hidden, they added some real versatility, but now that they're not.

It seems like klaws on shootas are one of those things that looks better on paper. If you're not really getting much out of them in practice, it kind of defeats the point.

**KingCracker**

Code wrote:
KingCracker wrote:
I agree. Making something with a good save make that save many times is definitely how I do it. Why else are boyz the perfect anti terminator unit then? They wouldnt be according to you Code, yet EVERY single time, Ive charged terminators, they die to my attacks, and I only use shootas. So I get to pour a crap load of shots into a unit first, and THEN assault with a crap load of hits. Volume of dice rolled is indeed a powerful tool

I was referring to Shootas vs. Mephiston. Wounding on 6 and wounding on 4+ is a big difference. On average it's 10 wounds vs. 3,33 wounds.
And putting 3,33 wounds on a 2+ save model just isn't a "ridiculous amount of firepower". It's just lots of dice. A Dark Eldar Venom does the same thing with only 12 dice.

And the first rule of making things with good armor saves fail them is? Thats right, making them take saves. Besides, if you want to kill Mephiston, just sitting there waiting for something that can ignore his save isnt how its done. Shoot the piss out of him, with everything youve got, and he will start failing saves. Besides, your failing to understand what "ridiculous amount of firepower" is. It doesnt matter if you only score 3 wounds, or no wounds at the end of it, 60 shoota shots per unit is a gak load of firepower. Just because some near broken unit can shrug it off doesnt make it any less ridiculous

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:
Well, anything with an I better than 1 stands a chance at knocking him out.

Of course, the real problem is keeping the entire mob alive, moreso than keeping just the nob alive (though you missed things like barrage weapons, or the new wound allocation (esp. vis. a vis. deepstrikers), or any of the ways you can get precise shot/strike).

Plus, you've got a close combat upgrade on a unit that is trying as hard as possible to stay out of close combat (against something so scary in CC that you'd need a klaw) so that they can do more shooting. Back when they were hidden, they added some real versatility, but now that they're not.

It seems like klaws on shootas are one of those things that looks better on paper. If you're not really getting much out of them in practice, it kind of defeats the point.

I have to admit, my game last night, I took the PK off my nobs and gave them bigchoppas/bigshoota instead. They did awesome. So... you may be right.

**lazarian**

edit- Nevermind found the answer to my question.

**Mannahnin**

Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub phase (beginning of the Issuing Challenges section), and characters who cannot fight or strike blows (including those not engaged with enemy models) can't participate in a challenge (last sentence of the Issuing a Challenge section).

You do have to position your models carefully to protect the sgt/nob/whatever for the first round, but you can certainly do it. It's easier with a squad with more models in it, and it's easier against a single-model enemy unit. If you do it right, you can set it up so that at I1 your nob piles in to range that he can swing, and gets his klaw swings to try to instant-kill the character. Your opponent can attempt to counter this tactic by shooting your unit and removing some of your closer, blocking models, but then they increase the risk that they'll fail the charge.

KingCracker wrote:And the first rule of making things with good armor saves fail them is? Thats right, making them take saves. Besides, if you want to kill Mephiston, just sitting there waiting for something that can ignore his save isnt how its done. Shoot the piss out of him, with everything youve got, and he will start failing saves. Besides, your failing to understand what "ridiculous amount of firepower" is. It doesnt matter if you only score 3 wounds, or no wounds at the end of it, 60 shoota shots per unit is a gak load of firepower. Just because some near broken unit can shrug it off doesnt make it any less ridiculous

You're both mostly right. You're right that Orks put out a crapton of shots, and that the first step to killing stuff with good saves is to make them take a ton of saves. But he's right that you do have to look at math at least a little bit. One of the best ways to kill terminators is to hit them with shootas and/or charging boyz. But it takes three times as many shots (on average) to put a wound on Mephiston as it does to put kill one regular terminator. So it is worth considering, before you shoot at Mephiston, whether there's another target around that's more worthwhile. Sometimes it's better not to waste the shots, and to just tarpit him, like you originally suggested.

**KingCracker**

Well TBH, if theres something else I can pour shots into besides Mephiston, then I personally would take it, because of how tough he is. But I was also taking this in a vacuum, like only shootas and nob are dealing with Mephiston. Same thing with other units, I wouldnt shoot the SAG at a big ol tank and hope for the best, if there was something easier to kill in LOS/range

**Big Mek Wurrzog**

Nobs at this time use PK's as vehicle crackers IMO. thye really need to give us burna boyz again in squads that would make all the difference in the world I think.

**KingCracker**

Im hoping they do something to allow us that +1 I on the charge again. I used to enjoy having the same I attack as a Marine with a BigChoppa. But yea, more importantly, Id like to see burnas make a return as an upgrade to a nob or mob, and I hope they REALLY redo the entire Nob entry. They are such a huge and varied unit and should take a whole damn page in the Army List. Make them ranging form cheap-o's to CC monsters to FlashGits. Thats what Id like to see