Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Page 16 mentions out of range.

Here is the situation

Marine Sarge standing in front of his devastator squad.

The gaunts in their pod land, but scatter far enough away that the only model in range is the Dev Sarge.

can the Missile launcher Dev's get hurt by the gaunts shooting attack as they are out of range?

the whole graph on P.16 reads really weird to me. Maybe because it is late.

Can some one explain.

No, there is too much. Can some one sum up?

Yes, you can wound any model in the unit, as long as at least one model is in range to begin with

P16 tells you that, if a model is in range when you start shooting, removing casualties does NOT make that model no longer in range. So if 10 gaunts were in range, and wound 5 times 5 models can be removed, if you have my luck with PA saves!

Even if 4 guys are out of range?

Because from how page 16 reads, only models that were in range when the to-hit rolls were made are considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack.

It is worded very strangely, it is like they meant to say:

(As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, the unit is considered to be in range for the duration...)

when they actually said this:

"As long as a model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration..."

the He refers to the model that was in range, but then the last part of that graph does not make any sense.

"...even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

WTF GW? Good Game...

As Nos said and combined with pg 12 where it states you measure to the closest visible model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:


the He refers to the model that was in range, but then the last part of that graph does not make any sense.

"...even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range."

WTF GW? Good Game...

"He" refers to the shooter., meaning he is still considered in range of the targetted unit even if the casualties being removed would put him out of range.

It would have been nice had they made that clear, as it reads it sounds like He refers to the unit being shot.

The context of "...even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range." makes sense if you read it as:

"As long as a [firing] model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration..."

 DeathReaper wrote:
It would have been nice had they made that clear, as it reads it sounds like He refers to the unit being shot.

The context of "...even if the removal of casualties means that the closest model now lies out of range." makes sense if you read it as:

"As long as a [firing] model was in range of the enemy when To Hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration..."

It actually is clear because that section on models being out of range can only logically refer back to the section on 'check range' on page 12, which says:

When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the
nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found
to be our of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit
doesn't shoot- his shots would not be not accurate enough to
hit anything.

As you can see from that section of the rules, range only matters from the firing model's perspective. If a firing model is in range of the enemy unit then they count as being in range. Individual models in the unit being shot at are never out of range of specific weapons, either the whole unit being fired at is in range or it isn't.

It was like this in 5th. You only needed to have range to 1 model to be able to kill the entire unit. No difference in 6th.

I do find it odd, but it helps the game be smoother.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It was like this in 5th. You only needed to have range to 1 model to be able to kill the entire unit. No difference in 6th.

I do find it odd, but it helps the game be smoother.

I think a big reason it seems counter-intuitive is because with LOS you're checking to see if any models in the unit being fired at are completely out of LOS, where as with range you're checking to see if any models in the firing unit are completely out of range.

Its this difference without being really explicitly called out in the rulebook that I think throws people for a bit of a loop.

Yeah.

I do kinda wish we had gone back to the 4th edition way. If an enemy model was out of range and/or out of LoS it couldn't be killed.

Course then you could abuse LoS and range wierdness to snipe certain models.

I don't have the rulebook to hand at the moment so I can't re-read to clarify, but I took it to mean that as long as a model in the target unit is in range of a single model in the firing unit when shooting at the unit is declared then that model can be removed as a casualty.

Any model in the target unit out of range of all weapons firing cannot be killed.

At least thats how I saw it working....

Boggy79 wrote:
I don't have the rulebook to hand at the moment so I can't re-read to clarify, but I took it to mean that as long as a model in the target unit is in range of a single model in the firing unit when shooting at the unit is declared then that model can be removed as a casualty.

Any model in the target unit out of range of all weapons firing cannot be killed.

At least thats how I saw it working....

Not at all.
Determine range. The unit is now in range so all the models in the unit are in range.
Roll to hit. Range determines what weapons are in or out of range.
Roll to wound. Range is irrelevant here.
Allocate wounds. We're told that as long as a model is in range when To Hit rolls were made, he's in range for the duration of the attack.
Therefore he may have wounds allocated to him.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I do kinda wish we had gone back to the 4th edition way. If an enemy model was out of range and/or out of LoS it couldn't be killed.

Course then you could abuse LoS and range wierdness to snipe certain models.

"Range sniping" equivalent is pretty much a built-in feature of 6th edition, since you normally remove closest models, so you don't even need to control range to do it. LoS sniping is already there, since LoS in 6th edition works differently from range.

rigeld2 wrote:

Determine range. The unit is now in range so all the models in the unit are in range.

It's this that I don't get. If 1 model is in range then all models in the unit are.....even if it's a stupidly placed conga line where the furthest model is 20 inches away from the closest, and the closest is the only one in range????

I'll have a read through when I get home and try and work out how I interpreted the rule or if I'm just being stupid......

DeathReaper wrote:Can some one explain.
No, there is too much. Can some one sum up?

Also, nice quote "Inigo".

Boggy79 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Determine range. The unit is now in range so all the models in the unit are in range.

It's this that I don't get. If 1 model is in range then all models in the unit are.....even if it's a stupidly placed conga line where the furthest model is 20 inches away from the closest, and the closest is the only one in range????

I'll have a read through when I get home and try and work out how I interpreted the rule or if I'm just being stupid......

BRB wrote:When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit doesn't shoot - his shots would not be not accurate enough to hit anything.

BRB wrote:Any model that is found to be in range of at least one visible enemy model in the target unit can fire.

To-hits are rolled. To-Wound rolls have no restriction on Range. Allocating wounds has no restriction on range. Therefore there's no range restrictions other than the initial "Who can fire?".

So, you can fire at a conga line by just shooting the closest, but most of the conga line won't be able to fire back if they have the same range.

Pyrian wrote:
So, you can fire at a conga line by just shooting the closest, but most of the conga line won't be able to fire back if they have the same range.

Exactly correct.

It's the classic GW poor wording that muddles things.

It does say that as long as a model was in range (doesn't specify shooting model but is clear from the rest of the paragraph) when to hit rolls are made then he is considered to be in range....even if it is a conga line of out of range models!!!

Not as bad as 5th edition allocation but still a little strange.

All you have to do is be in range of one guy to trash the whole unit then.