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Ok, so before my group and I had decided to play it so that the Blood Lance BA pyschic power could not hit a zooming flyer because it does not have a ballistic skill, thus cannot make a snap shot. However in the new FAQ it states that weapons that auto-hit, still auto-hit when firing snap shots. It goes on further to say that pshychic shooting attacks (usually auto-hit) can also be fired as snap shots.

But they specifically point out that the doomscythe's death ray (another auto hit weapon) can't hit a zooming flyer (my group and I also played it this way for the same logic as blood lance...no ballistic skill=no snap shot thus no way to hit a flyer). They did not FAQ the Blood Lance and how it effects flyers in the new 1.1 FAQ for Blood Angels...but based on the BRB FAQ, it seems that it can be fired as a snap shot, still hit automatically, and resolve against a flyer in zoom mode.

Your take?

Read BRB FAQ

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected?
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

 Darog wrote:
Read BRB FAQ

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected?
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

That doesn't really answer his question.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

IS the bloodlance a beam that hits automatically? If so, no.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Darog wrote:
Read BRB FAQ

Q: If the Blood Lance or Jaws of the World Wolf psychic power
(or any beam power for that matter) passes through more than one
enemy unit, does my opponent get to make a Deny the Witch roll for
each unit affected?
A: No. The first unit affected by the psychic power can
attempt to Deny the Witch, but if that test is failed, every
enemy unit is affected as normal.

That doesn't really answer his question.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

IS the bloodlance a beam that hits automatically? If so, no.

The blood lance is an auto-hit psychic shooting attack. I would presume it's a beam, but it doesn't really specify that I know of. My thought is, and always has been, that they can't hit flyers in zoom mode. That's the way we've been playing it. So, obviously this answers the question. I did not see this in the FAQ. Thanks for the heads up.

oH and don't forget its not a weapon its a psychic power. and it dosent resolve using snap shots so it cant.

The simple answer to this whole thing, because blood lance creates a line, it is NOT able to hit a flyer.

Is it just me or are those FAQ results entirely at odds with each other?

They say weapons that hit automatically can be snap shot and continue to hit automatically, but then they say these same automatically hitting weapons can't effect Flyers?

I feel like maybe they meant for the first FAQ to say weapons that hit automatically CAN'T be snap shot, since that lines up with the already established rules which say shooting attacks that don't use BS can't be snap shot.

They are not at odds with one another.
There are other times you are forced to Snap Shot. Those times you are able to hit automatically.
When the attack would affect HtH models, however, it doesn't work.

The problem with that Drunkspleen is that all automatic hit attacks do not roll to hit, but not all do not roll to hit attacks are automatic hits. In other words think of it like this, all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. The whole thing (in my opinion as pointed out in both of the posts about Zzap and flyers, read them to see) about it is that something that "automatically hits" is not necessarily ignoring ballistic skill of a model. It simply forgoes the to hit rolls, and as such can still make snap shots as pointed out by the earlier FAQ answer. Then later we are told that snap shots are the only way to hit a flyer, if something that "automatically hits" is able to make a snap shot, something that automatically hits is able to hit a flyer. So it's just a matter of a specific subset of "does not roll to hit" shooting attacks can snap shot, thus that specific subset is more specific than the general one.

Did the whole bit about having to hit it on a 6 when shooting without Skyfire not get through to you?

lmao


And now let's have somebody posting about Dante's Axe.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Did the whole bit about having to hit it on a 6 when shooting without Skyfire not get through to you?

Did the whole FAQ answer that states weapons that "automatically hit" still automatically hit on a snap shot not get through to you? Automatically hit is a very specific subset of do not roll to hit. Automatically hit attacks can still snap shot. The very first line of one FAQ answer tells us that to hit a flyer the attack must be a snap shot. Thus if a shooting attack automatically hits (read says automatically hits, not has an alternate type of to hit) it is capable of shooting as a snap shot. Read zzap from codex orks, "Choose an enemy unit within line of sight. If in rage, that unit is automatically hit. Zzap has the profile below. Zzap 36" S10 AP2 Melta." The weapon has a normal shooting profile. Note it does NOT ignore the BS of the model, it just automatically hits. This attack is capable of making a snap shot, because it is a normal shooting attack that automatically hits. Look at the wording for a template weapon now, "Instead of rolling to hit, simply place the template..." This is an example of something that "does not roll to hit." Since automatically hit attacks are a subset of does not roll to hit attacks that can make a snap shot, they can hit a flyer.

Give it a rest. In most instances you won't even be probably that close (and have to roll a good 4d6) - also, clearly the rule's intent is not what you're hoping for, and it's not like you'll get many chances to use it, and trying to interpret it as something else comes across as grasping at straws and something you will have to debate with your fellow player in a game, to which they will appropriately respond "no" - Feel free to use it and if people allow it due to this slight discrepancy, sure, enjoy.

Titan Atlas wrote:
Give it a rest. In most instances you won't even be probably that close (and have to roll a good 4d6) - also, clearly the rule's intent is not what you're hoping for, and it's not like you'll get many chances to use it, and trying to interpret it as something else comes across as grasping at straws and something you will have to debate with your fellow player in a game, to which they will appropriately respond "no" - Feel free to use it and if people allow it due to this slight discrepancy, sure, enjoy.

Actually if the rules weren't meant to be played the way I've suggested, why would one of their FAQ answers tell us that when a weapon that "automatically hits" snap fires, it automatically hits? Again in the second FAQ answer, why would their first line out of there be, Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? If a weapon that hits automatically still hits automatically when making a snap shot. and it is making a snap shot at a vehicle, is the vehicle hit? The answer has to be yes. Notice in the second question they take the time to separate weapons that "hit automatically" from a weapon that "doesn't need to roll to hit?" Again in the answer do you see anything that explains something that hits automatically? Every way they mentioned in the question is covered in the answer, except weapons that "hit automatically." There has to be a reason, and that reason is made clear when we look at their first question. Weapons that hit automatically can snap shot, and if something can snap shot it can legally target a flyer.



Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
Give it a rest. In most instances you won't even be probably that close (and have to roll a good 4d6) - also, clearly the rule's intent is not what you're hoping for, and it's not like you'll get many chances to use it, and trying to interpret it as something else comes across as grasping at straws and something you will have to debate with your fellow player in a game, to which they will appropriately respond "no" - Feel free to use it and if people allow it due to this slight discrepancy, sure, enjoy.

Actually if the rules weren't meant to be played the way I've suggested, why would one of their FAQ answers tell us that when a weapon that "automatically hits" snap fires, it automatically hits? Again in the second FAQ answer, why would their first line out of there be, Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? If a weapon that hits automatically still hits automatically when making a snap shot. and it is making a snap shot at a vehicle, is the vehicle hit? The answer has to be yes. Notice in the second question they take the time to separate weapons that "hit automatically" from a weapon that "doesn't need to roll to hit?" Again in the answer do you see anything that explains something that hits automatically? Every way they mentioned in the question is covered in the answer, except weapons that "hit automatically." There has to be a reason, and that reason is made clear when we look at their first question. Weapons that hit automatically can snap shot, and if something can snap shot it can legally target a flyer.



Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Strong warped logic Batman.

The giant words end the discussion.

 Amaya wrote:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

Titan Atlas wrote:
Give it a rest. In most instances you won't even be probably that close (and have to roll a good 4d6) - also, clearly the rule's intent is not what you're hoping for, and it's not like you'll get many chances to use it, and trying to interpret it as something else comes across as grasping at straws and something you will have to debate with your fellow player in a game, to which they will appropriately respond "no" - Feel free to use it and if people allow it due to this slight discrepancy, sure, enjoy.

Actually if the rules weren't meant to be played the way I've suggested, why would one of their FAQ answers tell us that when a weapon that "automatically hits" snap fires, it automatically hits? Again in the second FAQ answer, why would their first line out of there be, Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? If a weapon that hits automatically still hits automatically when making a snap shot. and it is making a snap shot at a vehicle, is the vehicle hit? The answer has to be yes. Notice in the second question they take the time to separate weapons that "hit automatically" from a weapon that "doesn't need to roll to hit?" Again in the answer do you see anything that explains something that hits automatically? Every way they mentioned in the question is covered in the answer, except weapons that "hit automatically." There has to be a reason, and that reason is made clear when we look at their first question. Weapons that hit automatically can snap shot, and if something can snap shot it can legally target a flyer.



Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when
making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Strong warped logic Batman.

The giant words end the discussion.

Thank you kind sir. you speak with reason.

And blood lance now can not be fired out of a hatch ( fire point ) .....serious gimpage

It is still worthwhile on Librarian Dreadnaughts and DoA Librarians.

yup.

 Amaya wrote:
Strong warped logic Batman.

The giant words end the discussion.

Here's the problem with that. I use an attack that hits automatically, say Zzap. According to the first FAQ part I posted I am allowed to make a snap shot with a weapon that hits automatically. If I wasn't allowed to make a snap shot with said weapon, we would have been told "weapons that automatically hit cannot make snap shots." Instead we are told, yes a weapon that automatically hits still hits if you snap shot with it. Thus the attack is made with a snap shot. That means I fall under the very first sentence of the second FAQ, Only snap shots can hit Zooming flyers and Swooping Monstrous creatures. I've used a snap shot with a weapon that hits automatically, I still hit automatically on that snap shot, and my hit on the flyer is now valid.

You're creating a non existent loop.

Shooting goes as follows.

Select target
Check Range
Roll to Hit
Roll to Pen
Resolve Pens/Glances

If you can not even target something how can you even start the shooting process?

Lone is correct, they made a paradox there. The intent however is made clear they those effects cannot affect a Flyer. GW just poorly worded it (go figure)

Where is the paradox?

The first step of shooting is selecting a target. It is clearly stated what can not target flyers. Whether or not they can snap fire is irrelevant.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Gliding Flying Monstrous Creatures...............................otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

They say you can shoot a Snap shot with an automatic hit weapon. They say you have to Snap Shot to hit Flyers. Then they say you cannot target them with those those weapons because they dont roll to hit (aka automatically hit).

First of all, let me make this clear. Something that hits automatically is not something that doesn't use ballistic skill to hit. Something that hits automatically simply assumes that the "to hit" roll is a success. Fearless is a perfect example. A fearless unit is forced to take a morale check. Even though you do not roll the dice because you pass the check, you still took the morale check. It is assumed that you rolled a number that would pass the check in question. The difference between an attack that automatically hits and an attack that does not use ballistic skill to hit, is that the attack that does not use ballistic skill it doesn't matter what the ballistic skill is. An attack that automatically hits, DOES matter what the units ballistic skill is. We still have to determine if an attack needs to be made at Ballistic skill 5 or BS 1. What doesn't matter is the outcome of the die from the roll, because we still made that to hit roll, and the number doesn't matter because we've hit with the attack. Just like in the fearless example, with an attack that automatically hits, even if you do not roll the dice you still have made the to hit roll.

The above would indicate that your steps are accurate.

Select Target
Check Line of Sight
Check Range
Roll to hit (we still made the to hit roll, we just got a number that corresponds with a hit)
Roll to Pen
Resolve Pens and Glances.

Again, what are the steps of the shooting phase.

1) Select the unit that is shooting
2) Select their target

If they fall into the category stated in the FAQ that can not target flyers then they can, (you probably guessed it!), NOT TARGET FLYERS.

They must select another target or not shoot. Snapfire is only of importance when determining what is necessary to roll in the hit and wound phase.

Yes it cannot target Flyers because they state it cannot.

That is irrelevant to the fact that they contradicted themselves doing it.

How do they contradict themselves in doing so?

Automatic hit weapons can snap shot and automatically hit when they do.

Flyers can only be hit with Snap shots.

What part of those two sentences contradicts each other ?

Where they contradicted themselves is that they put the cart before the horse. You cannot determine if you cannot target the flyer until you've gotten to a point after which the targeting is done. In other words you cannot determine if you able to hit it until step 4, but at step 1 is when they're telling us to apply that. In other words what the faq is saying, Check LoS and Range, then make your to hit roll (or whatever action substitutes for that), THEN telling you you cannot target the unit. Targeting something should be the first thing we do, but it now comes after our to hit actions.