Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

None of them. You're creating a nonexistent paradox.

1) You must Snapfire (or have Skyfire) to hit flyers.
2) Not all Snapfire can target flyers.

What part of this complicated?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lone Dragoon wrote:
Where they contradicted themselves is that they put the cart before the horse. You cannot determine if you cannot target the flyer until you've gotten to a point after which the targeting is done. In other words you cannot determine if you able to hit it until step 4, but at step 1 is when they're telling us to apply that. In other words what the faq is saying, Check LoS and Range, then make your to hit roll (or whatever action substitutes for that), THEN telling you you cannot target the unit. Targeting something should be the first thing we do, but it now comes after our to hit actions.

The second step in the phase is selecting a target. Why do you think a you can target a flyer when it specifically states you cannot?

 Amaya wrote:

The second step in the phase is selecting a target. Why do you think a you can target a flyer when it specifically states you cannot?

Let me try to explain this. Here are the steps for shooting

1. Nominate the unit to Shoot.
2. Select the Target.
3. Roll to Hit.
4. Roll to Wound (Armor penetration)
5. Allocate wounds and remove casualties (determine results of armor penetration rolls).

Essentially what they are telling us is that the steps should be 1, 3, 2, 4, 5. When we choose the target we do not determine how the weapons hit the target, only that they shoot at the target. In other words we cannot determine if we can target something until after we have shot at it. We do not determine if a unit can or can't snap fire until we go on to the 3rd step, at which point we have already targeted the flyer.

 Amaya wrote:
None of them. You're creating a nonexistent paradox.

1) You must Snapfire (or have Skyfire) to hit flyers.
2) Not all Snapfire can target flyers.

What part of this complicated?

First it never says number 2, so don't say something the rules don't say. You're trying to say that the FAQ implies that not all snap shots are equal. A snap shot is a snap shot, if you can point out an instance where one snap shot is different than another, I'll be happy to list. Anyways, moving on it lists what can and cannot hit a flyer. A snap shot is the ONLY way (besides skyfire) to hit a flyer with a shooting attack. I showed earlier a weapon that hits automatically still makes a to hit roll, we just come up with a result that is a hit. Thus it is not an attack that does not use ballistic skill, it is an attack that doesn't care if our ballistic skill is 5 or 50, when we make it the to hit roll step, it will always be a successful roll. The to hit roll may not physically be made, but a to hit roll is still satisfied. So if something that hits automatically is making a snap shot, what prevents THAT snap shot from hitting the target? It can make a snap shot, it does make a snap shot. So it must be capable of targeting the flyer.

It is not necessary for it to say the second statement as it is implied.

If a model does not have the Skyfire rule it can only Snapfire at a Zooming Flyer.

How are you getting if you can Snapfire you can shoot at a Zooming Flyer? You can Snapfire Template weapons, but they can't hit Flyers....

You are creating rules that do not exist.

 Amaya wrote:
It is not necessary for it to say the second statement as it is implied.

If a model does not have the Skyfire rule it can only Snapfire at a Zooming Flyer.

How are you getting if you can Snapfire you can shoot at a Zooming Flyer? You can Snapfire Template weapons, but they can't hit Flyers....

You are creating rules that do not exist.

First, you CANNOT perform a snap shot with a template weapon. You can Overwatch with them because they have a special rule that allows it, never are you performing a snap shot. Agreed, if a model does not have the skyfire rule it can only snap shoot at a zooming flyer. If a snap shot can be made the flyer can be hit by that attack. We automatically pass a to hit roll with weapons that automatically hit. The to hit roll was still made, we just assume we passed the to hit roll. That means if a weapon has a rule that allows it to automatically hit, it is allowed to make a snap shot. If that snap shot is successful (which it always will be, as we rolled the number corresponding with a hit result, in other words a six was rolled even if no dice were rolled), that weapon that automatically hits has hit the flyer. Remember, because we cannot determine until AFTER the to hit step if we can target the flyer or not, the result has already gotten through and was made with a snap shot, so it is a legal attack.

I'm not going to argue in loops with you about semantics of the shooting process when you ignore RAW.

It is pointless anyway as the FAQ has clarified that Blood Lance (and all beam weapons) can not target flyers. The OP's question has been answered and there is no reason for the thread to continue,

At no point have I ignored the RAW. Just because my views do not coincide with yours doesn't mean you can tell me I'm making up rules, or ignoring the raw. I'm merely pointing out how GW screwed the pooch in one portion of their new FAQ, and what we're going to have to deal with until the next bout of FAQ updates comes around. Part of the job in YMDC is having to play the devil's advocate so we can get everyone on the same page. While the problem of Blood lance has been solved, we have had a new wrinkle pop up that has spawned a new discussion in the same vein as the blood lance discussion. That's just part of YMDC, discussions evolve and they change.

 Amaya wrote:
You can Snapfire Template weapons, but they can't hit Flyers....

You are creating rules that do not exist.

??

Fragile wrote:
Automatic hit weapons can snap shot and automatically hit when they do.

Flyers can only be hit with Snap shots.

What part of those two sentences contradicts each other ?

Weapons that may fire as snap shots and hit automatically do hit automatically when fired as snap shots.

Not all weapons that hit automatically may fire as snap shots. Re-read the FAQ.

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Automatic hit weapons can snap shot and automatically hit when they do.

Flyers can only be hit with Snap shots.

What part of those two sentences contradicts each other ?

Weapons that may fire as snap shots and hit automatically do hit automatically when fired as snap shots.

Not all weapons that hit automatically may fire as snap shots. Re-read the FAQ.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes

Are we both talking about this FAQ ?

Does "hit automatically" = "does not need to roll to hit"? I always saw Blood Lance as an unorthodox template weapon (like JOTWW).

Anyway, there's clearly enough wiggle room for people to set up their little fortresses in this debate, and I sincerely doubt we will come to any agreement on it... but it seems pretty damn clear to me that the intent of the rule is that there are different type of snap shots - overwatch, shooting at flyers and then general snapshots from going to ground/moving + shooting a heavy weapon/etc. The FAQ about hitting automatically when making a Snap Shot refers to the sort of situation where someone has gone to ground and then wants to snap shot Blood Lance afterwards. So, while it can be snap shot, it cannot target a flyer since FAQ and rulebook both state that any attacks that create a line of/area of effect cannot target them.

Feel free to argue about how I've got my head up my ass, but good luck getting your opponent to agree with it.

Does "hit automatically" = "does not need to roll to hit"? I always saw Blood Lance as an unorthodox template weapon (like JOTWW).

Anyway, there's clearly enough wiggle room for people to set up their little fortresses in this debate, and I sincerely doubt we will come to any agreement on it... but it seems pretty damn clear to me that the intent of the rule is that there are different type of snap shots - overwatch, shooting at flyers and then general snapshots from going to ground/moving + shooting a heavy weapon/etc. The FAQ about hitting automatically when making a Snap Shot refers to the sort of situation where someone has gone to ground and then wants to snap shot Blood Lance afterwards. So, while it can be snap shot, it cannot target a flyer since FAQ and rulebook both state that any attacks that create a line of/area of effect cannot target them.

Feel free to argue about how I've got my head up my ass, but good luck getting your opponent to agree with it.

QFT.

Why on earth are people still arguing this point? The FAQ specifically says Blood Lance doesn't hit flyers. So debate over.

Yes, that's what we thought too, and we're almost definitely right, but let's now patiently wait for you to be quoted and then told why you're wrong lol

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Why on earth are people still arguing this point? The FAQ specifically says Blood Lance doesn't hit flyers. So debate over.

You're right, blood lance doesn't hit flyers because it forms a line. However as I said before, the debate evolved over the course of the day and multiple threads to be more than just about blood lance. The discussion became more along the lines of a shooting attack that auto hits is difference than one like Blood Lance where it forms a line of effect then auto hits what's under the line. The differences we've been trying to hash out is whether something that targets normally, has a normal weapons profile, and automatically hits (in other words the to hit roll still happens it just is a number that would hit) is able to hit a flyer, simply because it can make a snap shot. Or if it falls under the heading of something that "doesn't roll to hit" from the FAQ. That's what the debate has evolved into, because we have one rule that says an attack that hits automatically can make a snap shot, and another rule saying that only a snap shot can hit a flyer, and yet a third saying that an attack that doesn't roll to hit cannot target a flyer. It comes down to, which rules are the ones we apply?

People are debating what 'doesn't roll to hit' means? Really? Do some people have no lives?

Fragile wrote:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Automatic hit weapons can snap shot and automatically hit when they do.

Flyers can only be hit with Snap shots.

What part of those two sentences contradicts each other ?

Weapons that may fire as snap shots and hit automatically do hit automatically when fired as snap shots.

Not all weapons that hit automatically may fire as snap shots. Re-read the FAQ.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes

Are we both talking about this FAQ ?

Yes we are and you have apparently read it wrong.

When making a snap shot, weapons that hit automatically, still hit automatically.


This does not give weapons that hit automatically permission to make fire snap shots. Only those that can already fire as snap shots, may hit automatically.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
People are debating what 'doesn't roll to hit' means? Really? Do some people have no lives?

Is something that automatically hits something that doesn't roll to hit? Here's the example from before, Fearless automatically passes morale checks. That doesn't mean fearless units do not have to take them. The result of the dice roll for fearless is immaterial, but technically there is a roll of the dice even if one is never made. That's what we're discussing, is something that automatically happens the same as something that doesn't roll for it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
When making a snap shot, weapons that hit automatically, still hit automatically.


This does not give weapons that hit automatically permission to make fire snap shots. Only those that can already fire as snap shots, may hit automatically.

With one side of the argument something that hits automatically doesn't use ballistic skill and thus would never be able to make a snap shot, and the question shouldn't even exist in the FAQ. With the other side that something that hits automatically the to hit roll is still made, but the result is a number that corresponds with a hit. So we have one of two choices, either something that hits automatically does not roll to hit and the question should never have been put in there (since it wouldn't use BS it wouldn't get a snap shot), or something that hits automatically still makes a snap shot, and the FAQ has some sort of relevance (since it makes a to hit roll regardless of what the ballistic skill is, and that roll is always a success thus it can do anything a weapon that rolls a to hit roll can do).

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
People are debating what 'doesn't roll to hit' means? Really? Do some people have no lives?

Is something that automatically hits something that doesn't roll to hit? Here's the example from before, Fearless automatically passes morale checks. That doesn't mean fearless units do not have to take them. The result of the dice roll for fearless is immaterial, but technically there is a roll of the dice even if one is never made. That's what we're discussing, is something that automatically happens the same as something that doesn't roll for it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nemesor Dave wrote:
When making a snap shot, weapons that hit automatically, still hit automatically.


This does not give weapons that hit automatically permission to make fire snap shots. Only those that can already fire as snap shots, may hit automatically.

With one side of the argument something that hits automatically doesn't use ballistic skill and thus would never be able to make a snap shot, and the question shouldn't even exist in the FAQ. With the other side that something that hits automatically the to hit roll is still made, but the result is a number that corresponds with a hit. So we have one of two choices, either something that hits automatically does not roll to hit and the question should never have been put in there (since it wouldn't use BS it wouldn't get a snap shot), or something that hits automatically still makes a snap shot, and the FAQ has some sort of relevance (since it makes a to hit roll regardless of what the ballistic skill is, and that roll is always a success thus it can do anything a weapon that rolls a to hit roll can do).

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

" Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them." GW has created a LIMIT as to what Snap Shots can affect a Flyer, they haven't created a Paradox in any way, shape or form. Yes, your attack may automatically hit as a Snap Fire but theres no PHYSICAL roll...

Necro ..

ironwarrior177 wrote:



Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

" Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them." GW has created a LIMIT as to what Snap Shots can affect a Flyer, they haven't created a Paradox in any way, shape or form. Yes, your attack may automatically hit as a Snap Fire but theres no PHYSICAL roll...

Did you miss the date on this thread?

Realize that this thread was done long before the FaQ came out that said that

maybe check next time?

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.