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rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Correct yet the FAQ posts itself clearly in contridiction to this point just not to the level you feel could decline you the abuse vantage correct?

Absolutely false. The only thing the FAQ ruled on was targeting a DE unit.
A Tau or GK IC joined to an Eldar unit benefits, they just can't be targetted directly.

If you step back from the re-rollable 2++ hate you'll realize exactly what the FAQ does and doesn't do.

It isn't hate like I said, just disappointment. I understood what the rules did with this edition and it is clear what is in store for these tactics in the future a shame you feel so confident it won't but I assume we could both be right and not know it.

My reference points is seeing things like Codex: Space Wolves where it mentions only models from this codex can be impacted by rules or powers as well as IG and i'm sure other references. Because the idea in the FAq states this

"Do DE count as Allies for Eldar powers" the answer is no

If you aren't allies for the power the debunking theory is that no ally status means no power can be shared just like with allies of convenience and lower "no pyschich powers on the IC" agin you can feel free to interupt it but I have a feeling we will see the 175 pt combo vanish soon enough.

Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Please read the actual Eldar codex powers wording and rules before you make a further fool of yourself. ANYTHING can benefit from fortune or guide, just only Eldar UNITs can be TARGETED for the power.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

Hmm doesnt seem to be in contradiction as the Eldar power can only be used on Eldar units.

So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Nowhere does it state they're not Battlebrother allies.

it reads " count as Eldar" not allies.

So joining a DE IC to an Eldar Unit is still possible and the Unit is ELdar.
So the power works just fine.

I think serious tournament-goers will be able to read the FAQ correctly, for what it is, that Dark Eldar do not equal Eldar for Fortune, but targeting an Eldar unit with a Dark Eldar IC will be fine.

Unfortunately, it's only the die-hard players that will know this. If you take an Eldar/Dark Eldar unit to a regular tournament, most people will read the FAQ as 'Dark Eldar cannot get Fortune', and if you depend on that 2++ Shadowfield Archon, you will be TFG if you try to argue it based on the wording of this FAQ.

 BlueDagger wrote:
... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining eldar unit please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So if DE can't count as any kind of ally, how is it that you are able to get the power hum? oh right through battle brothers allies right? oh wait... but DE can't count as allies at all for those powers... oh darn

Once again this FAQ doesn't change any mechanic that made this combo possible.

The only thing that makes this combo work is DE IC being able to join Eldar unit. That's it.
Also, don't add to the faq something that it does not say. "DE can't count as any kind of ally" is a false statement. FAQ does not say this. It says that Dark Eldar allies don't count as Eldar NOT that DE don't count as allies. Those are completely different things.


And please don't instantly bash all the people who stand by this rule. Anybody here can easily turn it around and bash anybody that disagrees that he is a sore looser, simply is too lazy to try new strategy to counter this etc. etc. This is not a way to have a conversation.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
... I'm really not sure how people can be confused about this.

Eldar FAQ wrote:Q: Do Dark Eldar allies count as Eldar for the Farseer psychic
powers Fortune and Guide? (p28)
A: No.

All this does is makes it so that Dark Eldar units can not be targeted with Fortune or Guide and many DE players were trying do by stating Drak Eldar are Eldar. At this point you are left with only being able to cast on Eldar units. If a DE unit attached to an Eldar unit he becomes are part of that Eldar unit. Fortune and guide can be cast on the unit and that attached IC may benefit.

Yes, this does allow a 2+ invul rerollable. Yes, it is powerful. Yes, it 2 HQ slots 175pts without a single other upgrade. Yes, it is extremely easy to counter by using a thing called tactics rather then just shooting at where your opponent wants you to shoot.

This is no more cheesy then anything any other army can do.

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

Truthfully you can do what you want, but at the end of the day in this forum only RAW matter.
The Eldar codex states units under that power, so therefore the unit will be affected. You may no longer cast it onto DE units which is why the faq is there in the first place.

how do you come up with 1/216 to fail a save? its always 1/36. If you look out sir his failed save, the shield still breaks. The shield reads "when it fails its save". So it still breaks 1/36 shots.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

What tactic per-say? With a 1/216 probability of shotting him with basic fire and actually failing a save... or a 1/36 chance in a challenge in CC or just CC in general + FNP doesn't seem likely that any tactic is ... actually viable Snipers? oh okay 2+ LOS 2+ invulne re-roll. lol the only way TACTICS playing into probabilities like that are sheer and utter luck to be honest. All and all I would just tarpit it and call it a day tho.

IC joining own unit, if he does please refer to 39 so Dark eldar + Dark Eldar

If DE IC is joining eldar unit please refer to page 112, so now that we have 112 as our reference of how Dark Eldar Interact with Eldar lets go ahead and see how your independent character is treated for the purpose of pyker powers oh cool because he is a battle brother he gets those powers if he is joined to the unit of eldar... oh wait except 2 powers he isn't treated as an ally at all. Oh dang that means no power.

Again. assume what you want but to me this speaks of ALLIES not units. ALLIES is the key term here that shows me that collective the entire army will if not the accepted truth at the time eventually be in the corner of "NO bad eldars bad!"

I really have no clue what you are trying to argue here.

#1. DE are battle brothers with eldar and therefor are no enemies and can attach to eldar units. if the IC attached to an eldar unit he becomes a part of it for all game purposes until he leaves.
#2. Tactics = Not firing at a position where he is in front. Flank the unit, use barrage, assault the unit, and issue a challenge to single him out. if you kill the eldar unit, then he no longer has or can receive fortune.
#3. If you are trying to troll, man you are succeeding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Razgriz22 wrote:
how do you come up with 1/216 to fail a save? its always 1/36. If you look out sir his failed save, the shield still breaks. The shield reads "when it fails its save". So it still breaks 1/36 shots.

Failed lookout sir, failed shadowfield, failled shadowfield = 1/216. If you have a reroll you always negate the first roll so that fail never actually occurs.

With the new rules to look out sir, you always do look out sir afterwards. Am I wrong with that?

It was after if the unit had the same save, now it is always before rolling saves.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
With the new rules to look out sir, you always do look out sir afterwards. Am I wrong with that?

Yes you are. With the new rules you always LOS first because it's always mixed save unit. You LOS after you assign wound, before you save.

EDIT: Damn you Happyjew, I will have ninja my revenge

So maybe I dont get look our sir then? if your baron/ archon is in the front. Lets say 5 wound are on the unit. You have to choose to keep the wound on the baron or look out sir it to the closest model. Why would you ever look out sir when the baron is the one with the 2+ save. If you look out sir it to someone else you would use their save wouldnt you?

 Razgriz22 wrote:
So maybe I dont get look our sir then? if your baron/ archon is in the front. Lets say 5 wound are on the unit. You have to choose to keep the wound on the baron or look out sir it to the closest model. Why would you ever look out sir when the baron is the one with the 2+ save. If you look out sir it to someone else you would use their save wouldnt you?

Indeed.
1/216 is a chance of IC not taking a wound (IF you don't want to keep a wound on him). IC not taking a wound is not the same as nobody takes a wound.
This makes his 2+ re-rollable a bit pointless because you only use it 1 in 6 times. You may however try to do it if you fear ID for example.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
If you aren't allies for the power the debunking theory is that no ally status means no power can be shared just like with allies of convenience and lower "no pyschich powers on the IC" agin you can feel free to interupt it but I have a feeling we will see the 175 pt combo vanish soon enough.

And if they FAQ it fine. I don't care one way or the other - it's strong but not game breakingly.
But with the rules as they stand now it's legal.

 Razgriz22 wrote:
I am used to a lot of sarcasim on this site :-p

But I will assume you weren't being sarcastic.

What I said was basically my interpretation. I suppose after reading it over and over agian I could see how someone would be able to argue it against me though. I feel like what I said is what GW meant to get across. But In all honestly.... No one really knows what they actually MEAN to be saying lol.

No sarcasm intended at all.

Just saying I think I was incorrect.

Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

This does bring up odd possibilities though.

If a Farseer joins an Archon the unit is a DE unit.

If an Archon joins a Farseer the unit is an Eldar unit.

Units cannot join IC so we don't get that issue.

So if making a huge unit of ICs make sure you don't start with the Archon because then it will be a DE unit or whatever type of Codex you started with.

Still Eldar unit with Archon attach = Eldar unit and thus can be guided and fortuned.

Hwo do you kill it? Easy - take out the Farseer. No more 2++ save. Or take something that requires successful invulnerable save to be rerolled such as null zone. Rerolls cannot be rerolled again,

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Please read the the Independant character USR in the 6th edition rulebook. If you dont want to do that, there are a few posts on the first page highlighting the important part of that section.

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

I had a look in the special rules section pg32 (small), and it states getting special rules granted by phycic powers and that the powers will govern its effects. So would that mean since it now states that DE=/=E the power would only effect the eldar part of the combo?

 Lichkitten wrote:
I had a look in the special rules section pg32 (small), and it states getting special rules granted by phycic powers and that the powers will govern its effects. So would that mean since it now states that DE=/=E the power would only effect the eldar part of the combo?

No. That is what we are saying here. That rule in there states that IC's who join a unit become that unit for ALL RULE PURPOSES. So when the codex eldar power targets the eldar unit with a battlebrother IC (even Tau), the unit as a whole is considered still fully eldar because the IC is treated as part of that unit FOR ALL RULE PURPOSES. This is what we are stressing here.

The FAQ has no relation to this topic. The FAQ is targeting people who were trying to cast fortune or guide on ravagers, raiders filled with kabolites, venoms, any dark eldar unit. But since when an IC joins a unit it is treated as part of that unit FOR ALL RULE PURPOSES, that IC for rule purposes is no longer Dark Eldar. But is instead Eldar like the unit it is in.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So he counts as part of the unit, but he still counts as a "Dark Eldar Character" which specifically disallows fortune and guide from being cast on him, and the unit as well since he is a part of it....

Kevlar wrote:
"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

I don't think this means what you think it means. He is a part of the unit and he still gets the benefits (and drawbacks) of being a character. In every situation where GW did not want an IC of a different army to benefit from a special rule, they specifically stated that the IC did not benefit from the rule (see IG FAQ regarding Orders). All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

Kevlar wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Can someone please show me where in the rule book a Dark Eldar independant character stops being a dark eldar unit?

Just because he joins a unit of Eldar I don't see where that makes him no longer a dark eldar unit.

So fortune nor guide should be able to target an eldar unit that includes a dark eldar independent character by RAW.

So he's not a normal member of the unit? Because that's what you're saying.

No I am saying he is a member of the unit, and still a dark eldar character. By RAW you can not target dark eldar, or any non-eldar for that matter, with fortune and guide. By trying to target a unit that contains a non-eldar character you are breaking RAW. You can't just target the "eldar" part of the unit, you target the entire unit, part of which is illegal.

Actually no, with that statement you're breaking RAW though.
You may want to Re-Read the IC Box on Page 39, especially the sentence in the bottom left hand corner of the box

"An independant character counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So he counts as part of the unit, but he still counts as a "Dark Eldar Character" which specifically disallows fortune and guide from being cast on him, and the unit as well since he is a part of it....

And the rules for characters say nothing that has anything to do with any of this.... Show me some facts here. Reference your claims with rules.

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?