Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Kevlar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?

Wrong. If they're a member of an Eldar unit, that Eldar unit is targeted and all its normal members receive the benefit.

It has been pointed out under the IC rules. While a member of the unit they are a normal member of that unit for all rules purposes, and they also follow the rules for characters. Not characters of their respective codex, just characters.

We have referenced that page multiple times. And the exact line.

PG 39. Independent character special rule. Its a large box taking up over half the page. The last sentence in the left column.

I quote directly "While an independent character is part of a unit, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

It's put very simple. That unit is an Eldar unit. So when a Non-Eldar IC moves into coherency with an eldar unit and is declared as joining the eldar unit, it counts as part of that unit (an eldar unit) for all rule purposes.

So if an Autarch joins a Dark Eldar unit with x number of pain tokens, does he benefit because of the whole attached all rule purposes ?

He would benefit from the pain tokens.... If he had the Unique special rule power from pain. But he doesnt.

Power from Pain is very specific on who can benefit, and what happens if you have a unit with the rule and an IC without (or vice versa).

But yet Fortune is a specific Eldar unit rule and the DE IC would benefit when attached ?.. erm... just seems there is a clash in mechanics / views of the rules.

DEIC joins an Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Fortune / Guide ...should give way then to... EIC joins a Dark Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Power From Pain.

Q: When a unit comprised of some models with Power from Pain and some without has a pain token, does the effect it gives apply to every model in the unit or just to the models with the Power from Pain special rule? (p25)
A: It only applies to the models with the Power from Pain special rule.

So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
But yet Fortune is a specific Eldar unit rule and the DE IC would benefit when attached ?.. erm... just seems there is a clash in mechanics / views of the rules.

DEIC joins an Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Fortune / Guide ...should give way then to... EIC joins a Dark Eldar unit and becomes part of that unit for all rule purposes, including Power From Pain.

Unless specifically stated, special rules for a unit do not carry over to IC joining that unit and vice-versa. If you had a unit whose models all had the Relentless USR and an IC without Relentless joined that unit, he would not gain Relentless.

As for Fortune, it is a Psychic Power, not a special rule. It is limited in that it can only target Eldar units (i.e those taken from Codex: Eldar). As any IC joined to a unit is treated as a member of that unit for all rules purposes, the unit is in question is still Eldar and therefore can be targeted by Fortune.

Fortune is a psychic power that targets units. Power from pain is a unit specific special rule. They are very different things. The rules are quite clear in this situation.The FAQ is supposed to help cover that the dark eldar codex and the eldar codex are 2 different things. Eldar =/= dark eldar. People were trying to say that they were one in the same because the word eldar was used in both.

Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

And yes, I understand that Fortune / Guide are psychic powers - but within them are specific rules that are covered in the rules: rerolls ... and how they apply to Eldar units.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

No. Apples and oranges.
The fortune/guide FAQ only relates to targeting. Once the Eldar unit is targeted the entire unit benefits. There's no extra requirement once the unit is "hit".
Remember, this isnt just DE ICs but any Eldar battle brothers.

Power from Pain not only requires you to be a member of a unit, it also requires you to have the PfP rule.
It'd be like arguing a Tau IC could benefit from ATSKNF.

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

I guess I could see where you are trying to compare the two. But if the FAQ was written to nerf 2++ re-rolls it would be more specific towards that. Why would it talk about fortune AND guide? As you can take prescience and "guide" DE anyway. This FAW is highly relevant to the argument it was addressing. People are trying to dig things out of it that it wasn't addressing. It very clearly answers the question that eldar =/= dark eldar when reading the Codex powers guide and fortune (which are the only two that say target friendly eldar unit). That is what the FAQ was addressing.

 Razgriz22 wrote:

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

I guess I could see where you are trying to compare the two. But if the FAQ was written to nerf 2++ re-rolls it would be more specific towards that. Why would it talk about fortune AND guide? As you can take prescience and "guide" DE anyway. This FAW is highly relevant to the argument it was addressing. People are trying to dig things out of it that it wasn't addressing. It very clearly answers the question that eldar =/= dark eldar when reading the Codex powers guide and fortune (which are the only two that say target friendly eldar unit). That is what the FAQ was addressing.

Agreed through and through, if they wanted to nerf the 2++ rerollable save altogether than They'd have worded it like the IG faq.

Alot of people don't understand that an IC attaches to and becomes part of said unit. I can see the confusion but it's wrong.

 Blackmoor wrote:
What makes a unit an Eldar unit, and what makes a unit a Dark Eldar unit?

Since ICs are units, and a squads are a unit when they join together they are 2 units becoming one.

So my questrion is, if you have an Eldar IC attached to a DE squad what makes this a DE unit? If you have a DE IC in an Eldar squad what makes this an Eldar unit?

What about when you have an Eldar IC joined with a DE IC? Is this a DE unit or an Eldar unit?


To me when you have an DE IC join an Eldar unit they stop being strickly an Eldar unit and become a hybrid and neither pure Eldar or DE.

The rulebook, however, says that it is the IC that joins the unit, and not the unit that is forming a retinue for the IC. This would suggest that the IC forgoes his "status" and gains a new one. (In this case, ceases being Dark Eldar and is Eldar).

 toxic_wisdom wrote:
Neither of those two replies (and still open for others) answered my question though...rather than some taking an adamant stand on the FAQ = So then couldn't it be possible, given the FAQ and rule for Fortune / Guide, that Dark Eldar ICs are NOT meant to benefit when attached ?

And yes, I understand that Fortune / Guide are psychic powers - but within them are specific rules that are covered in the rules: rerolls ... and how they apply to Eldar units.

No.

If they wanted the DE not to benefit, they'd write it explicitly.

Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

 Oaka wrote:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for the targeting of Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

Italics added by me.

I say targeting because (iirc - I don't have the codex available) that's all that Fortune restricts.
Because, again, the argument against is that a Tau IC would benefit from Fortune fine. Just not DE.

Kevlar wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
All they are clarifying is that you cannot target a Dark Eldar unit with Fortune/Guide, not that they don't benefit from them.

If you can't target them then obviously they can't benefit from them. Unless you can come up with a page reference for a rule that makes them stop being dark eldar?

If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

This is the same thing. The unit is targeted for the power. The IC is "hit" by that power along with the rest of the unit.

 Foo wrote:
If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

Not in 6th edition you can't.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Foo wrote:
If I can only see one member of a squad due to line of sight, I can still wound the whole squad, despite not being able to target them, right?

Not in 6th edition you can't.

You can wound the squad bit can only allocate wounds to the visible model.

 Oaka wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

Unless there is some way to pick and choose which models in the unit are targetted, which there isn't, there is no way this can work.

Same would hold true if there was a Tau in the unit. He would still be a non-eldar. Those just didn't need an FAQ because no one considered Tau as Eldar to begin with. The FAQ was needed because some people were trying to get away with saying dark eldar were still eldar.

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

Kevlar wrote:

 Oaka wrote:
Thanks for all the responses. It does seem like the debate is still raging even with the FAQ. I was going to try and abuse the wording but it seems like the FAQ confused it even more:

Fortune affects Eldar
Dark Eldar are not Eldar for Fortune
Therefore, Dark Eldar are not affected by Fortune

That's what the FAQ sounds like, but I think everyone here has adequately shown that RAW an Eldar unit joined by a Dark Eldar IC is still an Eldar unit, and all the benefits from Fortune affect the entire unit. I, however, will not be using this combination because it WILL require lawyering in a tournament situation and I usually don't have the strength for that against a complete stranger.

Thanks for the hashing out of this, everyone!

I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

Unless there is some way to pick and choose which models in the unit are targetted, which there isn't, there is no way this can work.

Same would hold true if there was a Tau in the unit. He would still be a non-eldar. Those just didn't need an FAQ because no one considered Tau as Eldar to begin with. The FAQ was needed because some people were trying to get away with saying dark eldar were still eldar.

Go to the rule book, look up Independant Characters. In the bottom left hand of the box, read that rule. It's been quoted several times Kevlar.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

No, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule purpose where he stops being a dark eldar. You are saying he becomes a normal part of that unit, ie an "eldar". He never becomes an "eldar". The unit is now a mixed unit of eldar and dark eldar models.

If you had a unit of 1 farseer and one archon what unit type would those be?

It would depend who you declared joined with who if it was only 2 IC's

Kevlar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
I still don't see where anyone has proven that a dark eldar character in an eldar unit stops being a dark eldar. And since the target of the power is a unit which conspicuously holds a non-eldar character, that would be illegal.

An IC that joins a unit is a normal member of the unit.
Treating him as anything other than that is breaking the rule.
That right there means you're allowed to target the Eldar unit - because if you treat it like a combined Eldar/Dark Eldar unit you're not treating the IC as a normal member of the unit.

No, he counts as part of that unit for all rules purposes. Show me the rule purpose where he stops being a dark eldar. You are saying he becomes a normal part of that unit, ie an "eldar". He never becomes an "eldar". The unit is now a mixed unit of eldar and dark eldar models.

If you had a unit of 1 farseer and one archon what unit type would those be?

I'll go with "who the hell cares if he is Dark Eldar for 500" (pardon to those to young or out of country to understand the Jeopardy joke)

It doesn't matter if he was a Purple Snuffle Eater from the Grazborgan Codex. If he is a battle brother of Eldar and an IC he can benefit from Fortune. I repeat once again THERE IS NO RESTRICTION on non Eldar benefiting from fortune or Guide. It only states that you can not target non Eldar units for fortune/guide. If the IC attaches to an Eldar unit who cares what the IC is, you target te eldar unit not the IC.

You target the unit as a whole. And the unit as a whole is considered dark eldar due to page 39 in the USR's regarding IC's

 Razgriz22 wrote:
You target the unit as a whole. And the unit as a whole is considered dark eldar due to page 39 in the USR's regarding IC's

You got that backwards. The unit is an Eldar unit which can be targeted with no restrictions. The only time an issue occurs is if a Tau/DE IC and an Eldar IC are joined (in which case I would not use the power on that group just to avoid conflict, but that's just me.).

Lol idk why I wrote "dark eldar" I meant to say ** eldar**.