Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 XT-1984 wrote:

Funny you say that because that is exactly what you are doing yourself.

Im going to ignore this

It is clear from the Codex that Abaddon has a Daemon Weapon with additional rules.

Im with you so far

Instead of +1 STR it is double STR.

True enough

Besides that it functions exactly as a Daemon Weapon

Yes.

which is +D6 Attacks (hit yourself and don't attack if you roll a 1),

Correct

and AP 2.

Wrong. The defenition of a Daemon weapon is a power weapon that adds d6 attacks, ect. ect.
This means it is an unusual power weapon and thus is AP3 by default.

The FAQ defines a Daemon Weapon as

Melee +1S AP2 Daemon Weapon, 2 Handed

No it does not. It defines an UNMARKED daemon weapon as AP2. Tzeench is still ap3. The blanket rule for a daemon weapon is not AP2, its an unusual power weapon and is AP3. If you cna find where it says that all daemon weapons are AP2 please post it. I would love to know what FAQ you are reading because its not the one we've been using.

It's also stated in the FAQ that abbadons weapon is a power weapon, which makes it an unusual power weapon with ap3, that grants d6 extra attacks.

 Lightcavalier wrote:
The FAQ defines a Daemon Weapon as

Melee +1S AP2 Daemon Weapon, 2 Handed

No you are reading that wrong.

The FAQ modifies the profile for all Daemon Weapons for Chaos Lords with NO Marks of Chaos to the profile you have there.

Daemon Weapon is now defined as the Errata states:
Daemon Weapon: This weapon gives its wielder +D6 Attacks in
close combat. Roll the dice at the beginning of each Fight subphase
the wielder is in close combat. If the result is a 1, the
model may not make any Attacks in this sub-phase and suffers
one Wound with no armour saves allowed.

A Daemon Weapon is no longer a two-handed weapon unless it also has the two-handed SR in its profile.

Abby in fact has two single handed weapons that "count as" a daemon weapon. He is therefor not using that profile for a "Lord with no Marks" but is only using the Daemon Weapon Special Rule, with the addition 2x Strength as define by his Codex entry.

7) So familiars dont add +1 PML .. but does Mark of Tzeentch? Is there anything else that does?

page 66 of brb

ESTABLISHING MASTERY Level
Psykers are assumed to be Mastery Level I unless it states
othennrise in their codex entryr. The Mastery Level is usually
shown in parentheses after the Psyker special rule. For example:
Psyker (Mastery Level2). In older codexes, Mastery level may
be written out longhand in the form of a special rule that allows
the Psyker to use more than one psychic power each rurn - the
number ofpowers that can be used per turn is their Mastery Level.

top of p 88 of csm dex
States that a model with mot may attempt to use two powers per turn.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
No it does not. It defines an UNMARKED daemon weapon as AP2. Tzeench is still ap3. The blanket rule for a daemon weapon is not AP2, its an unusual power weapon and is AP3. If you cna find where it says that all daemon weapons are AP2 please post it. I would love to know what FAQ you are reading because its not the one we've been using.

This. You have no rules stating he is a Chaos Lord, so cannot be a Chaos Lord with No Mark. Thus his rules follow the Daemon Weapon rules, which by definition are unusual.

Guess the new CSM codex, has/will settle this for good.:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/csm-codex-212.jpg

I this is accurate, Abby "has all four Marks.."

40k-noob wrote:
Guess the new CSM codex, has/will settle this for good.:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/csm-codex-212.jpg

I this is accurate, Abby "has all four Marks.."

... and also specifies that his CC attacks are AP3.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Guess the new CSM codex, has/will settle this for good.:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/csm-codex-212.jpg

I this is accurate, Abby "has all four Marks.."

... and also specifies that his CC attacks are AP3.

I see AP2 there, on the next codex he will have to choose between using his daemon weapon or the talon of horus. In any case in the current codex he strikes with dra'echyn (sp?) and the talon only give him the reroll which will be the AP3 one.

Not really worth arguing for 3 weeks

Cyvash wrote:
I just noticed one thing im guessing tzeentch daemon weapons are still ap3 as well since they were not mentioned.

Given its shooting profile is AP 3 one could assume its melee profile would also be AP3 as it follows the unusual power weapon rule because its not FAQ'd.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Guess the new CSM codex, has/will settle this for good.:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/csm-codex-212.jpg

I this is accurate, Abby "has all four Marks.."

... and also specifies that his CC attacks are AP3.

i think it will be more clarified when book comes out, he has two weapon profiles.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Abaddon HAS a mark, of CA, so no +1S AP2 for him. He is AP3

As the dex states Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon he follows the rules for the Daemon weapon in the FAQ (AP2 two handed weapon +D6 Attacks) but doubles his strength instead of the +1 as per the dex. How is that difficult to grasp?

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Abaddon HAS a mark, of CA, so no +1S AP2 for him. He is AP3

As the dex states Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon he follows the rules for the Daemon weapon in the FAQ (AP2 two handed weapon +D6 Attacks) but doubles his strength instead of the +1 as per the dex. How is that difficult to grasp?

The FAQ says that the AP2 is only for a Lord with no marks.
It'd be great if you'd read the entire thread.

Cyvash wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Guess the new CSM codex, has/will settle this for good.:
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/csm-codex-212.jpg

I this is accurate, Abby "has all four Marks.."

... and also specifies that his CC attacks are AP3.

i think it will be more clarified when book comes out, he has two weapon profiles.

Right, so he will have to choose which to attack with.

One has +1 S - AP 2 is a Daemon Weapon etc.
The other is 2x S - AP3 but not a Daemon Weapon.

Should be interesting to read through when the 'dex come out.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Abaddon HAS a mark, of CA, so no +1S AP2 for him. He is AP3

As the dex states Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon he follows the rules for the Daemon weapon in the FAQ (AP2 two handed weapon +D6 Attacks) but doubles his strength instead of the +1 as per the dex. How is that difficult to grasp?

The FAQ says that the AP2 is only for a Lord with no marks.
It'd be great if you'd read the entire thread.

Great how you presume I didn't. Given that the 'Daemon weapon' is the only +1 strength variation and The Don has fore mentioned weapons that 'Count as' a 'Daemon weapon' its not hard to gather that the daemon weapon it counts as is the 'Daemon weapon'. Seeing as there is no other entry with a stat line for 'Daemon weapon' than the +1 strength, AP2 +D6 Attacks two handed variation...I'm going to gather it counts as what it says it counts as in addition to the other rules stated (X2 S instead of +1, reroll to wound). Again, not difficult to grasp.

At this point I will clarify for you; when I say 'daemon weapon' I mean Daemon weapons; daemon weapon. not any of the other Daemon weapons; X. Yes?

 Bausk wrote:
Great how you presume I didn't.

You responded to the 4th post in a 4 page thread.

Given that the 'Daemon weapon' is the only +1 strength variation and The Don has fore mentioned weapons that 'Count as' a 'Daemon weapon' its not hard to gather that the daemon weapon it counts as is the 'Daemon weapon'. Seeing as there is no other entry with a stat line for 'Daemon weapon' than the +1 strength, AP2 +D6 Attacks two handed variation...I'm going to gather it counts as what it says it counts as in addition to the other rules stated (X2 S instead of +1, reroll to wound). Again, not difficult to grasp.

You can make whatever logical leaps you want, but please support them with rules.
It's a Daemon Weapon with unusual properties. It doesn't meet any of the requirements listedin the FAQ so it's an unusual power weapon.

At this point I will clarify for you; when I say 'daemon weapon' I mean Daemon weapons; daemon weapon. not any of the other Daemon weapons; X. Yes?

This clarified nothing. I'm assuming you mean this stat line from the FAQ:
Page 93 – Daemon Weapons, Daemon Weapon (Lords with no
Mark of Chaos).
Replace the last sentence with the following profile:
Range S AP Type
- +1 2 Melee, Daemon
Weapon,Two-handed

Note that it requires you to a) be a Lord and b) have no Marks. Abbadon isn't defined as a Chaos Lord and has a Mark of Chaos Ascendant therefore meets neither criteria.

As I said, please read the entire thread and respond to the arguments therein.

I responded to the 4th post as it was the most relevant, half the posts relating to The Dons status as a lord and if he was marked or not are irrelevant. As it outright states that the weapons he uses count as a Daemon weapon. The additional effects are to be taken after the fact. It further indicates the Daemon weapon by stating it gets X2 instead of +1 (only the Daemon weapons; Daemon weapon grants +1S). Just because you perceive the way I post as me not reading the thread does not mean I did not, I just chose to respond to the only relevant points.

Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

Tell me why I have to. Seeing as by your logic Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a X2S rather than +1S (for no apparent reason) AP- weapon that +D6 Attacks and allow a reroll to wound. The special rule, as you put it, does not state that it is a power weapon of any sort. Nor does it explain the initial +1S the X2S is replacing. The point is these supposed requirements are irrelevant, Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon (including any perceived "requirements") that alters one characteristic, that it's clearly stated to initially have, and adds a reroll to wound.

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

Tell me why I have to. .

Becayse Nos has shown Abaddon has a mark of chaos.

It is up to you to counter that with rules. If yo can not then the rules Nosferatu1001 gave must be true.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

Tell me why I have to. .

Becayse Nos has shown Abaddon has a mark of chaos.

It is up to you to counter that with rules. If yo can not then the rules Nosferatu1001 gave must be true.

Which would only be relevant if he was a bought generic chaos lord that bought a Daemon weapon. What do you think a Power Klaw counts as? The Bale Eye? These things count as what they say they do, no limitation there on. if a weapon counts as it follow as said rules for weapon. Better yet the Gauntlets of ultimar, what do they count as again? A matched pair of Power fists with a storm bolter that has special rules. Well I guess seeing as the generaic chaptermaster cant get two powerfists AND a storm bolter (let alone a special one) it must just mean a single powerfist and the storm bolter and not what it says it counts as. Guess the Daemon hammer is an unusual force weapon or a thunder hammer, even though it says it counts as a thunder hammer with the nemesis force weapon rule. I can continue with more examples if you like. The main point here is it counts as a daemone weapon, further implication as to which daemon weapon is stated in the rule as it recieves X2 INSTEAD of the +1S it would normally get (not if he has a particular mark but because it counts as an unmarked lords daemon weapon).

Counts as; simple, straightforward and highly used rule throughout 40k.

How about you post rules quotes with page numbers to back up what you have said.

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

Tell me why I have to. Seeing as by your logic Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a X2S rather than +1S (for no apparent reason) AP- weapon that +D6 Attacks and allow a reroll to wound. The special rule, as you put it, does not state that it is a power weapon of any sort. Nor does it explain the initial +1S the X2S is replacing. The point is these supposed requirements are irrelevant, Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon (including any perceived "requirements") that alters one characteristic, that it's clearly stated to initially have, and adds a reroll to wound.

Because you are attempting to use the profile for a Chaos Lord witn No Mark of Chaos. What is allowing you to do that?


Abddon is NOT a Chaos Lord. If you disagree please give a page and para which defines him as a Chaos Lord. You cannot, but please actually follow the tenets of the forum and back up your assertion with rules
Abaddon *does* have a Mark of Chaos - he is treated as having all 4.

Please find a rule where he "counts as" a Chaos Lord with No Mark of Chaos.

 DeathReaper wrote:
How about you post rules quotes with page numbers to back up what you have said.

Specific uses of the term counts as can be found after a quick peruse though almost any code:.

C:SW
Page 35; Fang of Morkai; 'All models in the same squad as a wolf priest are counted as Fearless'.

Page 49; Living Relic; 'Bjorns remains are counted as an additional objective'

C:GK
Page 28; Personal Teleporter; 'The unit counts as having moved'

Page 31; Cleansing flame; 'Unsaved wound caused by cleansing flame are counted as having been caused in close combat for all purposes'

Page 58; Pslocculum; 'The bearer of the psylocculum (and his unit) count as being BS 10 if shooting a psyker, or unit containing one or more psykers.'

C:IG
Page 92; Battle klaw; '(Counts as a Power fist)'

C:Orks
Page 89; Power Klaw; 'Counts as a power fist in all respects'

Though it is not limited to the term 'counts as'. as It can also be 'treated as' or 'is a (insert weapon name here)' etc etc etc. All of which mean the same thing. They are what they say they are, if they have additional rules, or in this case rules that overide other then you use them in addition to as it is stated in C:CSM page 46 under the listing for Drach'nyen and the talon of horus;

'The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as being equiped with a Daemon Weapon (the weapon by name not the special rule) that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1 (a trait that is only associated with the unmarked lords variation of daemon weapons), and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat.'

I know its hard for you to accept this but a weapon can count as something without filling any of the weapons normal restrictions. That's the whole point of something counting as something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shw me where Abaddon is a Chaos LOrd with NO mark of chaos, then you would be right

There is no generic daemon weapon profile, it is now a special rule.

Tell me why I have to. Seeing as by your logic Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a X2S rather than +1S (for no apparent reason) AP- weapon that +D6 Attacks and allow a reroll to wound. The special rule, as you put it, does not state that it is a power weapon of any sort. Nor does it explain the initial +1S the X2S is replacing. The point is these supposed requirements are irrelevant, Drach'nyen and The Talon of Horus count as a Daemon weapon (including any perceived "requirements") that alters one characteristic, that it's clearly stated to initially have, and adds a reroll to wound.

Because you are attempting to use the profile for a Chaos Lord witn No Mark of Chaos. What is allowing you to do that?


Abddon is NOT a Chaos Lord. If you disagree please give a page and para which defines him as a Chaos Lord. You cannot, but please actually follow the tenets of the forum and back up your assertion with rules
Abaddon *does* have a Mark of Chaos - he is treated as having all 4.

Please find a rule where he "counts as" a Chaos Lord with No Mark of Chaos.

You are the one saying he needs to fill the criteria for the weapon to count as what it is. As I have just stated and shown there is no need for Abaddon to fill the set criteria for a Daemon weapon as it automatically counts as one without the criteria. And that sums up why I totally didn't care to post about his status as a lord or if he is marked or not, its irrelevant. If they just counted as having the Daemon weapon special rule then they wouldn't have an AP at all as under the Drach'nyen & Talon rule and FAQ the SR; DW; states nothing about Power weapons or APs so that seems a little far fetched that it only applies the DW SR.

Actually there is. All of your examples specifically state what they do. Abbadons does not. Its as simple as that. You cnanot make leaps of logic in a RAW argument. You will lose.

His weapon is not the same as an AP2 daemon weapon.

Now you MUST find a rule where it states "drach'nyen is AP2". There is no other way around this. You HAVE TO find a rule that states specifically that.

Not that, "Well its kinda like an AP2 Daemon Weapon"

Hemlock Root is Kinda like a Carrot, but if you eat it you die. Kinda like does not mean is.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Actually there is. All of your examples specifically state what they do. Abbadons does not. Its as simple as that. You cnanot make leaps of logic in a RAW argument. You will lose.

His weapon is not the same as an AP2 daemon weapon.

Now you MUST find a rule where it states "drach'nyen is AP2". There is no other way around this. You HAVE TO find a rule that states specifically that.

Not that, "Well its kinda like an AP2 Daemon Weapon"

Hemlock Root is Kinda like a Carrot, but if you eat it you die. Kinda like does not mean is.

Its not a leap of logic or extrapolation from incomplete data nor is it 'kinda like'. It states that it counts as a Daemon Weapon that confers a +1S before alteration in the chaos codex. As only one of the 'Daemon Weapons; X' has a +1S in its profile and is called a 'Daemon Weapon' there is no assumption of what it counts as. Further more its the combination of Drach'nyen and the Talon that makes it count as a Daemon Weapon with stated alterations, not just one or the other. So there you go, they count as a Daemon weapon, a Daemon weapon has the profile listed in the latest FAQ, they don't use its +1S & instead use a X2S, in addition to this they grant re-roll to wound. Done.

In none, that's right none of the weapon examples I listed via what I previously cited as counts as lists the weapons profile that it counts as so it is unreasonable to presume I would need to do so in this example. If you would like another citation look no further than Codex DE; Page 49; Lilith Hesperax; Wicked blades and barbed hair; 'Counts as a shardnet and Impaler' and again, no profile listed.

 Bausk wrote:
Further more its the combination of Drach'nyen and the Talon that makes it count as a Daemon Weapon with stated alterations, not just one or the other.

Stop right there. You have changed the rules of the Daemon weapon by equiping and additional pice of wargear that you use in conjunction with it. Because of the Talon of Horus, you have a completely different ruleset. Its as simple as that.

In response to the lelith post, do you know what a "Counts As" daemon weapons ap is? Give you a hint, its 3. The Daemon Weapon blanket rule does not mention an AP, so therefore, unless otherwise specifically stated for THAT SPECIFIC DAEMON WEAPON its an unusual power weapon and is AP 3.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Further more its the combination of Drach'nyen and the Talon that makes it count as a Daemon Weapon with stated alterations, not just one or the other.

Stop right there. You have changed the rules of the Daemon weapon by equiping and additional pice of wargear that you use in conjunction with it. Because of the Talon of Horus, you have a completely different ruleset. Its as simple as that.

No I didn't, Codex CSM did. Do you own a copy? Page 46 under the section detailing what Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus effects in game are. I will repost it again for you;

'The effect of these two powerful artefacts means that Abaddon counts as being equiped with a Daemon Weapon that doubles his strength instead of the normal +1, and he may re-roll any failed roll to wound in close combat'

As you can see the combination of both these weapons counts as a single weapon called a Daemon Weapon. It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee. However the +1 is replaced by a X2S and the weapon gains the ability to re-roll failed to wound rolls as stated in the chaos codex as said Daemon Weapon has its profile altered by the special rules of 'Drach'Nyen and the Talon of Horus'.

I will give you a further example if you like. Codex DE: Page 51: The Serpents Bite. 'These Blades count as poisoned weapons (2+). Further more , so virulent is their toxin that any to wound roll of 5+ ignore armour saves.'

Meaning they count as, as in use the profile/SRs etc for, poisoned weapons (2+) as a base. Then in addition to that they have another special rule that alters the original weapons base profile.

 Bausk wrote:
It uses the weapon profile provided for a Daemon Weapon: Range: - S: +1 AP2 Type: Daemon weapon, two handed, Melee.

Find me where the blanket rule for Daemon Weapon says this. This exactly, for all daemon weapons. If you can fine me the rule that says every daemon weapon gets this, then I and everyone else here will concede the argument. Give you another hint, it dosent exist.


Again you are both wrong, and giving bad arguments. Counts as a serpents bite,

Not, counts as a serpents bite with a pink paintjob that does ___ in addition to its normal rules
Or a green one that does ____ in addition to its normal rules.

There is no example that is similar to daemon weapons because nothing changes its rules like they do. There is no example you can provide that is even close to a daemon weapon because there is no wargear like a daemon weapon. No unit gets a "Mark" that changes the way its wargear works but chaos marines.