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2 big issues here, both of which need addressing.

Q1) Can a Deathmark unit that uses the VoD mark a different unit?

Hunters from Hyperspace (p36 C:N)
When a Deathmark unit deploys, choose a non-vehicle enemy unit on the battlefield (even a unit in a transport) to be their prey - place a counter next to the chosen unit to serve as a reminder. Any Deathmark unit that shoots at, or strikes blows against, a unit marked in this fashion will score a Wound on a roll of 2+.

Veil of Darkness (p84 C:N)
A Cryptek with a veil of darkness can use it in its Movement phase instead of moving normally. The Cryptek and his unit are removed from the tabletop and immediately Deep Strike back onto the battlefield.

Deep Strike (p36 BYB)
Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
[...]
Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

[...]
Deep Strike Mishaps
[...]
If any of the models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or withing 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

So, here's how it seems to be played:

The Deathmark unit is deployed originally, marks a target using HfH. This unit is wounded on a 2+.

The Cryptek attached to the unit elects to use the Veil of Darkness.

The original mark is lost - the Deathmarks are removed from the tabletop.

Using the rules for Deep Strike, we ignore the reserves part and deploy as per a normal deep strike.

The Deathmarks choose another unit to mark using HfH. This unit is wounded on a 2+.

We definitely deploy the Deathmarks, which is the only stipulation on choosing a mark. If we argue it's simply movement and not deploying the models, they neither treat difficult terrain as dangerous nor can they ever mishap. So, does this really allow remarking?



Q2) What happens in the following scenario?

In a 10 man Necron Warrior unit, 8 are shot dead. The unit passes their leadership test.

The last 2 Warriors are removed from play via JotWW.

This is the first unit "destroyed"

How is it resolved? The unit is "destroyed", so cannot roll, yet as the last model wasn't removed from play as a casualty, the Necron codex doesn't allow you to remove the counters for the unit, so as they have no way to remove these counters, they must remain on the board forever. Further, such a unit doesn't count as first blood despite being the first unit killed as that says when the unit is RAAC, which it hasn't been. The only way out I can see is if RFP and RAAC are the same. Thoughts?

I'm sure that the first unit marked when the first "deployment" occurs is the only unit that can be marked, as it goes on to say that once the targeted unit (singular) has been eliminated, no OTHER unit can be wounded by the 2+ ruling. As in one unit marked for the duration of the game, not just while the Deathmarks are on the board.

VoD doesn't "remove" them from the game entirely, just displaces them momentarily, otherwise, who's to say you can't use your Crpytek to bounce the Deathmarks in and out of Hyperspace, counting each time as a re-deploy?

Not sure about Reanimation Protocol, as it clearly states there must be a member of the unit remaining on the board. But, if you take JotWW, or any Psyker ability to coincide with the shooting attack, or whichever phase it was stated to be activated in, but only rolled separately for ease of computing, then those 8 models fell simultaneously with the other 2. Which effectively makes the last model a casualty.

Deathmark and NIghtscythe player here

I can see the confusion, but no remarking is possible as far as I know:


The mark only takes effect when the unit is deployed.

Deployement only occurs before game, and when a unit arrives from Reserves.

No where in Deep Strike does it mention deployment, but instead uses "arrives from Deep Strike".


Note: ongoing Reserves do not deploy either, they "re-enter" play.

I hope this is useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For Question 2.

The model has effectively been removed from play, so once the game ends, they would count as a casualty (much like other units that are not on the battlefield once the game has ended).

I believe it's because Deathmarks can be held in reserve and then can piggyback on another players DS. This is their "deployment." It's at this time that the mark selected/ comes into effect.

Using VoD is essentially teleporting, not DS, but it's described as similar for the game mechanic. But if the Deathmarks were deployed as part of the Crypteks retinue, and was not held in reserve, then only the one mark stands.

And I wouldn't think that if you hold Crpytek + Deathmark Retinue in reserve you get to piggyback, as the Deathmark ability wouldn't translate to VoD???

Thanks for the answers guys but I'm still not totally satisfied. In fact, I think it's worse than I originally said as there doesn't seem to be a reason to lose the mark if you are removed from the tabletop. I mean, it definitely says you pick the mark when you deploy, the veil definitely uses deep strike (it says exactly to DS, not to use the rules or relocate as if DSing) and deep strike says you mishap if you cannot be deployed. Whilst I'm sure this isn't RAI, I can't see an argument against it RAW - problematic when someone I play against uses this combo. I'd love to be proven wrong though. Another problem I see is if you use the C'tan redeployment ability - what stops you from deploying the deathmarks normally, redeploying them into reserves and then using the normal deployment from reserve rules to gain another mark?

As for RFP vs RAAC, does it not seem odd to anyone that you don't get first blood if you use RFP weapons? Also, the models RFP, if you take it differently to RAAC always leave these phantom unit counters if their unit is destroyed, which is odd. Not to mention the question of if you can use the counters to block movement. Do they score? They come from a troops choice after all. The only codices that refer to RFP instead of RAAC are all authored by Phil Kelly. Is it not possible that it's merely a stylistic difference in writing? How am I killing a model without it being a casualty? If it's not killed, how can I apply any of the rules for destroying unit etc? I'll admit I've not been in the game a long time, so I've always struggled to see arguments like these, common sense tells me it shouldn't work.

Eyjio wrote:
As for RFP vs RAAC, does it not seem odd to anyone that you don't get first blood if you use RFP weapons?

This has been covered already (sort of). Models are RFP(aaC). Units are destroyed. Or something like that. If you really want to get technical you have to kill a unit that consists of a single model to claim First Blood.

1. The HoH counter is never lost. There aren't any rules to cover this. But the DM unit deploys only once, when it comes from reserves. Leaving the table and DS back is never actually a "deployment".

2. After all warriors are dead then all RP counters are removed and you consider the unit destroyed. You get 1st blood as usual.

copper.talos wrote:
1. The HoH counter is never lost. There aren't any rules to cover this. But the DM unit deploys only once, when it comes from reserves. Leaving the table and DS back is never actually a "deployment".

2. After all warriors are dead then all RP counters are removed and you consider the unit destroyed. You get 1st blood as usual.

1) It deploys only once? So you never mishap nor treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain using VoD then? After all, as I quoted above, it clearly says you DEPLOY them as follows, which is the only requirement to pick a mark. It never states you are limited to one mark (indeed, you can have 3 without using this if you take 3 units), so as you have fulfilled all the requirements to pick a mark, you get another. It definitely says it's a deployment, so I guess whatever you're trying to say has been lost in translation to me.

2) That's not what the rule says though. It says you can't ROLL for the counters if the unit is destroyed. It only tells you to remove the counters if the last model in the unit is RAAC or if the roll is failed. Likewise, I'll quote first blood, p122:

First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player at the end of the game.

It never says destroyed, it says removed as a casualty. If RFP is the same as RAAC, you do indeed get first blood. If they're different, you do not, as the unit was not removed as a casualty, it was removed from play. Likewise, if you say RFP is really RFP(aaC) then Necrons will get their Reanimation against RFP weapons. So, can we all agree that RFP is the same as RAAC?

You never included mishaps in the original case. If you mishap you never deployed in the 1st place. But if you deploy then later VOD and mishap, get sent to reserves and then DS back again on the table from reserves, then yes, you would have deployed 2 times and therefore you would have 2 HoH counters. Is it worth it?

And RFP models are casualties.

I believe the ONLY way you can get multiple marks, is by using the Grand Illusion power from a C'tan, at least I know it was discussed back in 5th.
You deploy them, and mark, then remove them from play, they later re-deploy as normal, with their special rule triggering once again.

Actually, RAW since you are re-deploying the Deathmarks via DS you do get to re-mark. That was the consensus of my no so humble FLGS. They actually belive it was intentional. Imagine a group of assassins given specific targets to kill off and phasing in and out of reality to hit each one of them in succession. Its the way everyone at my FLGS plays anyway. All in all, like 5+ crons players who have been playing since 4th

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Actually, RAW since you are re-deploying the Deathmarks via DS you do get to re-mark. That was the consensus of my no so humble FLGS. They actually belive it was intentional. Imagine a group of assassins given specific targets to kill off and phasing in and out of reality to hit each one of them in succession. Its the way everyone at my FLGS plays anyway. All in all, like 5+ crons players who have been playing since 4th

Do you find it overpowered to play it this way? Do the crons players have any friends left besides each other after playing this way?

I like the idea of it as you describe it, but haven't played this way because it looks like an exploit.

So do alot of things that go on. Its not really that bad b/c they usually only get to do it once ot twice before they die. After they waste a unit in a single turn they are generally turned to slag b/c they have to be so close to deal damage. I've never had a deathmark unit survive the game.

Not to mention you still have to hit and the enemy will get armor saves 5 times out of 6

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
Not to mention you still have to hit and the enemy will get armor saves 5 times out of 6

So they don't use the AP1 template then? They should.

I dont understand.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont understand.

The cryptek type with the Str8 AP1 template that wounds on leadership... wounds on a 2+ on a marked unit, AP1.

It dosent extend. Nowhere does it say their rule extends to a cryptek

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
It dosent extend. Nowhere does it say their rule extends to a cryptek

It does extend. It says the unit wounds on a 2+. Meaning that the Cryptek - being more a member of the unit than even an IC - wounds on a 2+.

I disagree. The cryptek is an attatched character. It would have to say the unit and all attatched characters like so many rules do. It does not extend to the cryptek.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I disagree. The cryptek is an attatched character. It would have to say the unit and all attatched characters like so many rules do. It does not extend to the cryptek.

Is the unit a Deathmark unit after a Cryptek is attached?
Is the target unit marked?

Hunters From Hyperspace is satisfied. Is this another house rule of yours?

I dont have to prove a rule exists. You prove to me how an attatched character benefits from that unit. And leave your snide comments to someone who wont report you for them.

 Vindicare-Obsession wrote:
I dont have to prove a rule exists. You prove to me how an attatched character benefits from that unit. And leave your snide comments to someone who wont report you for them.

He's not just an "attached character".

He's an upgrade character to the unit. Just like a SM Sergeant. Are you arguing that an SM Sergeant doesn't benefit from stuff the rest of the unit does?
And I wasn't making a snide comment - I was asking a valid question.

Ask the "Valid Question" on the "Valid Thread". Whats going on in the ID thread has nothing to do with this one. He is bought part of a seperate unit and attatched at the beginign of a game. The fact that he cannot leave does not make him a non-attatched character, it means he cannot leave.

Heh. I'd forgotten this. Going to the FAQ to show that they're just upgrade characters I found this in the Necron FAQ:

Necron FAQ wrote:Q: Do models from a Royal Court that are attached to a Deathmark
Squad benefit from the Hunters from Hyperspace special rule? (p90)
A: Yes.

So... Are they going to start using the AP1 template that wounds on a 2+ now?

Now you have ground to stand on. Yes they do.

That, of course, dosent mean that they are going to survive any longer than ususal. In fact, I am under the impression it might make them die even quicker b/c now you've made them massive targets.

Actually I had ground to stand on before... that just reinforced it. But whatever.

Thanks guys, just wanted to check. As for overpowered, not hugely. It's very good at killing tough infantry but at the end of the day, you're killing 5 marines and a scout at a cost of 155 points to get rid of the threat, 185 if you have 2 crypteks for double flamers. Sure is annoying to charge though. Kinda hoping they FAQ it out still.