Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My Jade Fists Space Marines have been my standard chapter for when I feel like building something "Space Mariney", whether for a painting competition or just for practice. At this point, though, it's time to go ahead and fill it out into a full army. Because I've had a number of models put together without any clear army plan, what I've got isn't really particularly synergistic yet. That is the challenge here, so I'm turning to Dakka to try and figure this out.

What I have:
-Chaplain (Power armor, no Jump Pack)
-Dual-Autocannon Dreadnought
-Land Raider Redeemer
-One Land Speeder (with MM; this one's optional because I don't know how long a single Land Speeder would actually survive.)

I also have a small Inquisitorial detachment (an Inquisitor and retinue, a unit of Grey Knights (PAGK) that'll Deep Strike, and a LRC to carry the =I= retinue.)

At this point, what I'm trying to figure out is:
-What rides in the Land Raider, and
-What else to field to fill it out?

I probably have around 600 points to play with but can easily adjust that upward. My initial plans for the army were to add Pedro Kantor and a unit of Sternguard, with the Sternguard drop-podding in. On top of that would be a couple of units of either Scouts or Tactical Marines, but the Land Raider is throwing me off. I'd like it to deliver a nice assault unit, but it feels like a waste to take regular Assault Marines on foot without the free Rhino or Pod, and I regularly see Vanguard Vets badmouthed here.

Comments or suggestions?

5 man assault termis in the raider. I'd go 2xLC, 3 TH/SS. The chaplain joins here

Then 2 full tac squads in rhinos.

This should run about 600 points, and give you a viable army to play with.

Oh so much that could be said here.

Vanguard are awesome. You could have a murderous deathstar with 10 without jump packs, a few ap2 weapons, a few claws and some storm shields. And some plasma pistols too. In a land raider. With caplain in case they miss!

Think of the speeder as a cruise missile. Hide it till it goes and hits something. With typhoon they can survive longer but not with MM.

Dread is gold, good generalist unit.

Obvious answer is you need troops. Two lots of 10 mandatory IMO. I like a lascannon in there then they focus on surviving, using the LC to participate. Thats 360 to 400ish depending on other gear. Melta and combimelta, plasma, cp, or flamer, cf are all good. Power sword seems to be emerging as a good option too now, i would say with bolt pistol.

So question now becomes are you going to be shooty or assaulty. You could take some normal terms, us the raider as dedicated, then take 3 vindicators, TFCs or predators for example.

So need to think about how you like to play.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:

Vanguard are awesome. You could have a murderous deathstar with 10 without jump packs, a few ap2 weapons, a few claws and some storm shields. And some plasma pistols too. In a land raider. With caplain in case they miss!

While I don't normally recommend vanguard, I have to admit they look cool. From a game standpoint, once you gear them up, they start costing the same as assault terminators. And if you are paying that price, might as well get the big boys.

But it sounds like you are coming to this army from a modeling perspective. There is no unit in the codex that can be tweaked to look as awesome as these guys. Each man is a veteran of a hundred wars with his own personal collection of wargear and history.

With VV you get more models into the LR so total number of attacks is much greater, and some will cost 20 points. They take the first casualites. You can also tool them up so a few ap2 shots come out before the charge.

Yes there is a heavy under appreciation of them here. They are very very effective if used well, opponents will fear them yet will likely not really appreciate how good they are, and they look great.

No, vanguard are really poor value for points.
If you said honour guard, however.....

They are cheaper and just cooler, then do not die to boat load of common cc weapons.
Pedro opens them up, they do not take another FoC slot.

Unfortunately they look ugly.
Else assault termies are awesome and better.
You do want a cc unit to make use of the assault vehicle to get value for the land raider.

Honour guard have too limited choices. If you could take jump packs, heroic intervention, and storm shields, then they would be amazing.

The chapter banner is excellent however i would take vanguard over honour guard.

Who wants marines that hover in throne rooms and outside strategy sessions when you can take the most aggressive members of 1st company.

Seems like an easy choice to me. An assault terminator squad with plenty of thunderhammers.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:
Honour guard have too limited choices. If you could take jump packs, heroic intervention, and storm shields, then they would be amazing.

The chapter banner is excellent however i would take vanguard over honour guard.

Who wants marines that hover in throne rooms and outside strategy sessions when you can take the most aggressive members of 1st company.

Excuse me while I perform a Heroic Intervention on your fluff fail. Honor Guard don't hover in throne rooms. While you are technically correct that they hover outside strategy sessions, Space Marine strategy sessions happen while the Chapter Master is busy crushing someone's face with a power fist. Honor Guard are drawn from the elite of the Chapter's elite - aka, if you're a really good Vanguard Veteran, you might be an Honor Guard one day. They're in the thickest fighting because that's where the Chapter Master is, making them quantitatively more badass than Vanguards. Plus, I heard from a neophyte that you can get Eternal Warrior just by standing near Marneus Calgar long enough.

In game terms, Vanguard < Honor Guard < Assault Terminators. Vanguard are just too expensive for a 3+ save, and a storm shield makes them even more expensive without giving them the protection of a 2+ save. Sticking them in a LR wastes their only real trick, which is Heroic Intervention. Honor Guard got better in 6th, because 2+ saves are better, and they can mix power swords and axes. They get more for the points than Vanguard because you aren't paying a la carte for their weapons. Assault Terminators, obviously, are going to be the best choice, but Honor Guard aren't necessarily a bad one.

You performed a heroeic intervention on my comment.

Honour guard are good as are assault terminators. Till i have played more 6th i cannot be sure yet i believe tactical terminators are now a better choice than assault terminators.

Regarding your consideration template for units, you and many others seem to always boil it down to what do i get for points relative to other units available. My own view is there are two problems with that.

1. No everyone wants to drive a toyota camry.
2. I prefer to think of units in a list performing a job, or set of jobs.

Regarding point 2 you would be relying on honour guards 2+ yet that is going into epic fail against a DP or even a dread with DCCW. This is why i will pay more for vanguard, because they can become the ultimate tools of assault. For you to explore that however you need to drop the singular consideration of what to pull from the codex, being they eveyone should drive a toyota argument. If the only consideration is points economy then you are right, under that framework you will never bother to experiment with vanguard.

Having paid up for them and used them successfully in a competitive environment, albiet under 5th, i can tell you they perform brilliantly and even if they get fiercely expensive, they deliver the goods.

Wait, the discussion at hand is what to put a land raider.
Vanguard and honour guard fulfil the same role in this regard, neither of which you would chuck against a daemon prince or a dread for that matter.

How you choose to set up the vanguard for raider, will be close to how you set up the honour guard. Take the cheaper and better unit.

Then I am not sure why there is a discussion of jump packs in a land raider question.

BA vanguard were awesome and I am willing believe still are, though in a competitive environment, vanilla variety, they were only great in fringe lists like shrike.

 Loricatus Aurora wrote:

Honour guard are good as are assault terminators. Till i have played more 6th i cannot be sure yet i believe tactical terminators are now a better choice than assault terminators.

They fill different roles. Assault Terminators are one of the absolute best counterassault units in the game, and can't really be beat in that role, particularly for the points. Tactical Terminators are more at home in a linebacker type role, advancing and laying down fire while providing the threat of counterassault against certain types of units.

Regarding your consideration template for units, you and many others seem to always boil it down to what do i get for points relative to other units available. My own view is there are two problems with that.

1. No everyone wants to drive a toyota camry.
2. I prefer to think of units in a list performing a job, or set of jobs.

This is a large and silly oversimplification of a points efficiency argument. It isn't about always driving a Toyota Camry. Each unit has a role, and you need to decide if your need for the role and the unit's performance in that role is worth the investment, compared against alternative ways to invest those points. It's more like trying to decide between a Ferrari and a Porsche (I know jack squat about cars, so this is all made up). They're both expensive sports cars, but the Ferrari is more expensive. The Ferrari has better acceleration, but the Porsche has a higher top speed. The Ferrari has tighter turns, but the Porsche can brake more quickly. If you're looking for performance, do the Ferrari's strengths offset both the increased cost and the areas in which the Porsche beats the Ferrari? For that matter, do you even need a sports car? Maybe you could buy a nice luxury car instead and have cash left over for an SUV ... would that fit your needs better than a sports car?

Vanguard (kitted out) cost substantially more than Honor Guard. Vanguard are better against AP2. Honor Guard are better against AP3+, not to mention they have one or two extra Attacks (two weapons, and maybe a banner). Furthermore, Vanguard are twice as vulnerable to small arms fire and regular CC attacks, despite costing a lot more. If you expose them, even for a turn, they will get neutered. Counterassault units need survivability as well as offense, which is why TH/SS Termies are so good.

To be honest, for me it's not even about the comparison. Even if Vanguard Vets were literally your only option for counterassault, they would still be a bad choice, because the opportunity cost in lost shooting isn't worth what they bring to the table. They are straight up too expensive.

Regarding point 2 you would be relying on honour guards 2+ yet that is going into epic fail against a DP or even a dread with DCCW. This is why i will pay more for vanguard, because they can become the ultimate tools of assault. For you to explore that however you need to drop the singular consideration of what to pull from the codex, being they eveyone should drive a toyota argument. If the only consideration is points economy then you are right, under that framework you will never bother to experiment with vanguard.

Having paid up for them and used them successfully in a competitive environment, albiet under 5th, i can tell you they perform brilliantly and even if they get fiercely expensive, they deliver the goods.

Vanguard will never be the ultimate tools of assault. Their glaring weakness is volume of attacks. A 3+ save on a model that costs the same as a Paladin doesn't work, even if it's an invuln save. They die like a 16-point Marine to bolters. At that point, you're probably better off dropping your counterassault unit and spending the points on more shooty.

I'm not saying they don't deliver the goods. They certainly can. But Assault Terminators deliver the goods better, for cheaper, and will stick around longer on top of it.

Does this mean you should never experiment with Vanguard? Of course not! They're horribly inefficient, but it's not like you're just throwing your points away. They're also cool and fluffy. A successful 40K army doesn't have a set of linear attributes, it's more complicated than that. But all other variables being equal, particularly in the OP's context of LR delivery, the discrepancy is so huge that you better love those Veterans to even think about including them.

Here is what I suggest

10 Vanguard Veterans

Base 10 vanguard on foot will set you back 225 points
I propose some gear though

Sergeant has Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, worth thinking about if you really want to challenge him, but also necessary to challenge him to remove that TH

From there here is what the lads have

2x Stormshield/Bolt Pistol
2x Powerfist/Plasma Pistol
Lightning Claw or Power Axe/Plasma Pistol
Melta Bombs
3 VV with just chainsword/bolt pistol

Now of course there will be howls of protest about this, its a bit unconventional

Your cost in points for the 10 vanguard is 400 all done, which of course is the cost of 10 TH/SS terminators

However here is how it works

You cannot fit 10 assault terminators in a land raider, you can fit 6.

However you can fit the 10 vanguard

Im not going to maths hammer, others can do that if they want

You have your 3 plasma pistols putting in a few St7 AP2 shots. There is risk here that they could Get Hot, however I think the probability of any of the guys dying is 5.5%. It will happen over a few games and it will suck. In general though those plasma pistols will be gold. I have killed predators with 3 plasma pistols (5th ed) let alone opponent 2+ units.

The reason you are leaving 3 marines with nothing, and a fourth with just meltabombs, is those are your 20 point first wounds. They are out the front of the charge to go down first, providing protection for your much more expensive guys. This is a powerful characteristic that vanguard bring that you dont get with terminators.

So you get your shooting away, you cop back the flack and may lose some un-buffed vanguards, then you slam into the opponent.

Now you have a Thunderhammer, two powerfists and a lightning claw, which is a great amount of big hits. The standard vanguard is no slouch either and will throw down 4 St4 attacks on the charge.

So is it directly comparable to 10 assault terminators? No absolutely not. You need to be smart because the above posts about their limitations are correct, you dont want to take 20 small arms shots.

650 points in one tank?
The catch all approach is a waste. 400 points and they do no job well.

The advantage of taking 10 would be to combat squad them, you chuck out two(actually more using ICs) units from the raider. You can even decide before battle who to split them once you see the enemy.