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 Tadashi wrote:
On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.

Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.

 White Ninja wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.

Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.

I was referring to the Tau.

Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee...

Which was mentioned first, Dark Eldar or Necrons?

And what idiot Astartes Commander would take 'nids head on? Surgical strikes to fragment the synapse web and delay/weaken the Hive Fleet until Guard and Navy reinforcements can arrive is the standard procedure IIRC.

I'd say necrons. Most SM tactics dictate surgical strikes that only space marines are tough enough and ferocious enough to pull off. But that tactic doesnt work on necrons. What DOES work is massive application of overwhelming firepower. Essentially, concentrate on target, annihilate, choose next target etc. Space Marines aren't designed for such tactics.

 Sasori wrote:

This really isn't true at all. Necrons have honed a lot more tactics than just "Clump and fight" After thousands of years of infighting, and fighting against the Old ones and other races of the galaxy. A lot of times this is how Warriors are depicted, but it's far from how all (Or even close to all) Warfare has been conducted by the Necrons.

There are plenty of examples in the codex of Necrons completely tactically outwitting opponents. Zahndrekh and Imotekh are probably the best examples of this.

As for Tyranids evolving, I don't think there is a way to evolve against something that strips your atoms apart, lol.

Don't agree with that, tbh. Imotekh and Zahndrekh are specifically noted for being prodigies, and are only a few Necron tacticians out of, apparently, hundreds if not thousands. Trying to claim that their tactics and strategies are "the norm" for Necrons is like trying to say that most Guardsmen use Creed-level tactics.

I would imagine that the reason why they're commonly portrayed the way they are is because... that's how they generally are.

 White Ninja wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.

Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.

You're kidding right?

Everyone knows that marine bolters never run dry unless it's plot-important that they do so...

Think about it. When did you last see Marines with more than one spare clip (barring conversions).

I would point out that Necrons are just about immune to artillery strikes. You can't target them. They can baffle just about any sensor you use to get a fix, so you're always firing blind (Again, see Fall of Damnos for details, it really is a most useful book). Also, Guard tend to get behind cover and set up firing lines, whilst Necron Warriors tend to march forward in phalanxes. That's all well and good, and the Guardsmen will have a bit of a home advantage... Until the Warriors teleport inside the walls. Or Scarabs burrow up through the ground and swarm all over you. Or Wraiths materialise inside tanks and slaughter the occupants. Or Gauss weaponry de-atomises the cover. Or Deathmarks teleport next to the enemy and gut them.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Don't agree with that, tbh. Imotekh and Zahndrekh are specifically noted for being prodigies, and are only a few Necron tacticians out of, apparently, hundreds if not thousands. Trying to claim that their tactics and strategies are "the norm" for Necrons is like trying to say that most Guardsmen use Creed-level tactics.

I would imagine that the reason why they're commonly portrayed the way they are is because... that's how they generally are.

"Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."

Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."

That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.

Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.

As someone else said, it depends on the Author

That said, really that depends on what kind of battle. The Space Marines would never survive against most foes except in short raids for the most part, they simply don't have the numbers or capabilities (e.g. their air support is extremely limited, their artillery support is practically nonexistent, their fleets are small and outgunned by many foes, their recon abilities are also limited basically to SM Scouts with binoculars and orbital surveys, etc). Most major opponents wouldn't have much trouble annihilating an Astartes chapter if they really wanted to.

So really, it's not the type of foe, it's the type of battle. Any sort of attritional or multi-dimensional battle would quickly see the Space Marines destroyed.

Space Marines suffer when they can't perform hit-and-run shock attacks on key targets.
If you can pin them down (E.g. force them to defend a certain position rather than run about killing people) then you can wear them down and kill them a lot easier than you could otherwise.

TheCustomLime wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Nids easily. They're basically antithetical to every strategy the Space Marines employ.

He has a point. Without Guard support... 1000 guys ain't much against a Horde of millions no matter how hardy.

I think the ultramarines would like to have a word with you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheCustomLime wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Nids easily. They're basically antithetical to every strategy the Space Marines employ.

He has a point. Without Guard support... 1000 guys ain't much against a Horde of millions no matter how hardy.

I think the ultramarines would like to have a word with you

The title says 'battle', not 'war' or 'campaign of genocide'. SM could destroy any race in battle, but it all comes down to circumstance. Has the fight already begun, or have the Imperials not even engaged yet? Is there any intel or are the SM going in locked and loaded, yet ignorant of what they're against? Personally in a head to head battle I'd say CSM would be difficult because they're essentially fighting their equals, although the selfishness and lack of brotherhood among most traitors would probably tip the scales in the loyalists favour IMO.

Also, the necron fanboyism is strong in this thread. They're undead, kill the necromancer and its gg.

Amon wrote:


I think the ultramarines would like to have a word with you

The Ultramarines had some of the best PDF forces in the Galaxy at their disposal.

 purplefood wrote:
Space Marines suffer when they can't perform hit-and-run shock attacks on key targets.
If you can pin them down (E.g. force them to defend a certain position rather than run about killing people) then you can wear them down and kill them a lot easier than you could otherwise.

Call in the Imperial Fists

In honesty I don't think there is enough information provided by the OP to provide an actual answer. Is there a battle in Space First, what sort of Planet are they on, is it a whole Chapter or a Company, is it an all out assault by the other Race, is it expected or a surprise attack?

Space Marines a pretty capable of defeating any opponent despite the odds, but then they can also be defeated and there are also levels of defeat. Battle of Mcragge is a good example of a victory and a loss of a Space Marine Chapter, as is the battle involving the World Engine against the Necron.

MarsNZ wrote:
The title says 'battle', not 'war' or 'campaign of genocide'. SM could destroy any race in battle, but it all comes down to circumstance. Has the fight already begun, or have the Imperials not even engaged yet? Is there any intel or are the SM going in locked and loaded, yet ignorant of what they're against? Personally in a head to head battle I'd say CSM would be difficult because they're essentially fighting their equals, although the selfishness and lack of brotherhood among most traitors would probably tip the scales in the loyalists favour IMO.

Also, the necron fanboyism is strong in this thread. They're undead, kill the necromancer and its gg.

Yeah, what he said. Apart from the last part, I don't think that's the way it works.

MarsNZ wrote:
Also, the necron fanboyism is strong in this thread. They're undead, kill the necromancer and its gg.

That's uh, not how it works.

 Ascalam wrote:

 White Ninja wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
On-topic, I'd say Necrons, due to their superior technology. As BlaxicanX said, taking out the Warboss would cause the Waaagh!!! to fall apart allowing Imperial forces to take advantage and wipe them out, and DoW II show that by using surgical strikes are effective in delaying the Tyranids until Naval and Guard forces can build up the numbers to counter-attack, while simultaneously weakening the Hive Fleet by the loss of so many synapse creatures. With regard to the Forces of Chaos, its arguable those are what the Space Marines were originally meant to fight against, or rather, Chaos-tainted factions during the Great Crusade. The Eldar's psychic superiority can be said to be neutralized by the raw power of Librarians. Dark Eldar and Tau prefer hit and run strikes, which Space Marines excel at, and since the latter do not really fare well in melee, it just makes them easier prey for Space Marines.

Your kidding right. Lots of dark eldar love to fight in melee and are some of the best duelist ever. Other then that I agree mostly. Nids would pose am issue just because the marines would run out of bolter rounds fast.

You're kidding right?

Everyone knows that marine bolters never run dry unless it's plot-important that they do so...

Think about it. When did you last see Marines with more than one spare clip (barring conversions).

You are kidding right? When was the last time you have seen ANYONE run out of ammo in 40k? Its a god damn TT game covering a single battle, you arnt going to be dealing with ammo.

Only in BL books but even in those you rarely have SM behind enemy lines for long periods of time and they usually have supply lines. If they DO get cut off than ya ammo DOES become an issue and books will mention trying to conserve ammo or even running out.

I was referring to the fluff, not the tt game I made mention of conversions because most other races have spare clips as addons for the models, usually in multiples, but few SM do.

Also: Bladestorm

Guard novels often have ammo run out, or be running low.

I can only think of a couple of occasions when SM run low/out. They are generally referred to as mowing down thousands of foes, but a bolter doesn't hold thousands of rounds.

Those shells are frickin' huge, and a clip only holds a few. The Marines in question aren't referred to as packing around a little red wagon full of clips each, and are rarely mentioned to be reloading, or even pausing to do so in mid fight unless it's cinematic to be slapping in a new clip after downing a baddie.

In short, it's like action movies, wher ethe ammo never runs dry unless the plot needs to revolve on the fact or a martial arts scene is next up.

Nothing wrong with that, but realistic it ain't. Hordes of Nids/Orks/whatever aren't going to pause after you empty your 10 shots into them to allow reloading time. Suspension of disbelief is assumed, because SM don't lose in BL books in which they are the heroes.

A similar example would be Calgar holding the gate for 3 days against an Ork horde. Did they all forget to bring ammo and CC weapons, let alone artillery?

Badass Calgar is, but his armour isn't THAT good

We allow ourselves to let it pass, because it's 40K fluff. Realism got left at the door, right along with common sense

 Ascalam wrote:
I was referring to the fluff, not the tt game I made mention of conversions because most other races have spare clips as addons for the models, usually in multiples, but few SM do.

Also: Bladestorm

Guard novels often have ammo run out, or be running low.

I can only think of a couple of occasions when SM run low/out. They are generally referred to as mowing down thousands of foes, but a bolter doesn't hold thousands of rounds.

Those shells are frickin' huge, and a clip only holds a few. The Marines in question aren't referred to as packing around a little red wagon full of clips each, and are rarely mentioned to be reloading, or even pausing to do so in mid fight unless it's cinematic to be slapping in a new clip after downing a baddie.

In short, it's like action movies, wher ethe ammo never runs dry unless the plot needs to revolve on the fact or a martial arts scene is next up.

Nothing wrong with that, but realistic it ain't. Hordes of Nids/Orks/whatever aren't going to pause after you empty your 10 shots into them to allow reloading time. Suspension of disbelief is assumed, because SM don't lose in BL books in which they are the heroes.

A similar example would be Calgar holding the gate for 3 days against an Ork horde. Did they all forget to bring ammo and CC weapons, let alone artillery?

Badass Calgar is, but his armour isn't THAT good

We allow ourselves to let it pass, because it's 40K fluff. Realism got left at the door, right along with common sense

You see this is why I find it weird, I encounter the SMs running out of ammo in fluff as often as they mention the IG running out. They NEVER mention soldiers reloading in stories, IG or Marine, just because you dont need to read that.



Are they firing more ammo than they would logically have? Oh ya for sure, maybe thats the point you are trying to make, they have more ammo than usual but there are plenty of stories of them having ammo issues. Like the example you had with Calgar, it was because they ran out of ammo, which is exactly what you were saying, they didnt have enough ammo for the job.


Now dont miss understand me, anyone with any miltary experince can tell you that these novels have the soldiers burning through like 7 times the ammount of ammo that they should have on them but a lot of novels actually do refrence ammo issues. They only refrence them while fighting Tyranids, Orks, or Chaos Daemons/Cultist mobs however


Thats the point you were focusing on right?

Um..no.

The Orks in question are not mentioned as being out of ammo. He just holds them off somehow with the infinite clips in his gloves My point was that apparently (and unmentioned in the fluff entry) he must have been fighting unarmed orks with no support, because otherwise that feat would be impossible. Hell, it'd be impossible even then..

It could be we're reading different stories here, but i've run into more references of low ammo/running out for non-marines than not.

I don't have the complete run of BL books, nor every codex, so it could be i'm just missing the ones that have Marines having to reload

The point i'm making is that the fluff is basically an action movie in text. the heroes never run out of ammo, unless it's cinematic or there is a need to drive home the badassness or numbers of the enemy.

The IG novels i've read tend to bring up the need to reload occasionally ('sven slapped a new powerpack into his lasgun...') or that ammo might be an issue ( 'the men are running low on ammo..' ) whereas the SM ones don't.

The SM would run dry far quicker if realism was asserted because of the huge size of the boltgun loads. A Lasgun powerpack is good for many many shots, and can be recharged. Boltgun rounds don't grow on trees, and are far bulkier to carry than lasgun clips. Mowing down thousands of enemies would need thousands of rounds, which would make the SM in question look like walking ammo belts with a gun barrel sticking out.

Not a biggie though. I'm not out to crusade for realism in BL I was just pointing out the absurdity of the ammo situation

 King Pariah wrote:
The truth is, almost every faction could claim being the hardest to beat in battle.

All in all, the only thing that's really undisputed is that the easiest to beat are the Tau. puny blue fishfaces.

manta says hi!

 Ascalam wrote:
Um..no.

The Orks in question are not mentioned as being out of ammo. He just holds them off somehow with the infinite clips in his gloves My point was that apparently (and unmentioned in the fluff entry) he must have been fighting unarmed orks with no support, because otherwise that feat would be impossible. Hell, it'd be impossible even then..

It could be we're reading different stories here, but i've run into more references of low ammo/running out for non-marines than not.

I don't have the complete run of BL books, nor every codex, so it could be i'm just missing the ones that have Marines having to reload

The point i'm making is that the fluff is basically an action movie in text. the heroes never run out of ammo, unless it's cinematic or there is a need to drive home the badassness or numbers of the enemy.

The IG novels i've read tend to bring up the need to reload occasionally ('sven slapped a new powerpack into his lasgun...') or that ammo might be an issue ( 'the men are running low on ammo..' ) whereas the SM ones don't.

The SM would run dry far quicker if realism was asserted because of the huge size of the boltgun loads. A Lasgun powerpack is good for many many shots, and can be recharged. Boltgun rounds don't grow on trees, and are far bulkier to carry than lasgun clips. Mowing down thousands of enemies would need thousands of rounds, which would make the SM in question look like walking ammo belts with a gun barrel sticking out.

Not a biggie though. I'm not out to crusade for realism in BL I was just pointing out the absurdity of the ammo situation

Ya I got what you are getting at now. No worries

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.

the_scotsman wrote:
I agree with the assessment that necrons are probably a good match for space marines, but not that they're the greatest threat ever. People seem to be assigning them some serious infallibility that just isn't there.

1) Theyre not unfeeling, fearless, logical machines. They're mortal beings put in machine bodies, with many of the same vices and issues multiplied by a million in their new forms. Even the warriors aren't immune to fear, it says so in the dex and it's the reason none of them are fearless, they still have instinctive fight or flight responses. Put that on top of the various madnesses that afflict the upper classes, not to even mention Flayed One craziness, and they're dangerous but not cold, calculating bastards who will always win.

2) Theyre not cohesive. Saying nobody could ever stand up to "the necrons" would be like saying alien invaders wouldn't be able to take on all the armies of earth: this is assuming we could all work together. There's tremendous infighting among the necrons and it's not likely to end soon seeing as every overlord's mindset is "well, our mighty empire must be reunited and must span the stars....under MY leadership. And I'll make the other overlords serve me robocoffee. What will Iake my goofy helmet crest look like...?"

all in all, I'd say necrons' biggest flaw is that they're the cackling, superintelligent bond villain of the 40k universe. Their sinister plans to take over the world(s) will be ultimately thwarted by extreme ego and a dash of their own craziness.

More reasons Oldcrons were better

 Surtur wrote:


More reasons Oldcrons were better

Obviously...ancient, implacable machines united under near-omnipotent beings from the dawn of time will always trump over TOMB KINGS IN SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 King Pariah wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.

nope

BlaxicanX wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

Yeah, actually the Necron Codex does say this on page 30, paragraph 5, second sentence onwards.

nope

"For many nemesors, it is unthinkable to honour an alien enemy with the traditional codes of battle. In their eyes, most races are little more than vermin to be wiped away with as much efficiency and as little pomp as possible. Most of the more advanced races, such as the Eldar, have simply proven themselves unworthy of being treated as equals. So it is that assassination and ambush - forms of combat forbidden in wars between the nobility - are employed against outsiders without reservation."

Yep

Prove it really say that.

I'm afraid it does.

We're not allowed to put up scans of codexes, but if you take a look at the dex, it is there on Pg 30.

Feel free to check next time you are in the FLGS if you don't believe me.

Pg 30, last paragraph, to the left of the old picture of the necron Lord from the 3rd E codex.

Sigh, my camera is broken, can another Necron player take a pic of the 5th paragraph on page 30 of the Necron codex and post it? Or just a massive general consensus that this is what it says? Or perhaps BlaxicanX can take a look at the fifth paragraph on page 30 of a Necron Codex himself and save us the trouble of having to go out of our way for him.

Dakka Dakka never fails to entertain me. C'mon, dudes. You can't ell when someone's busting your balls?