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Well, semi-human. As human as a sentient robot can be.

Mostly, though, Necrons are no longer metal tyranids, they're now their own race.

Terrain dictates

Okay, this is actually (in my mind) a very good, and potentially complex question. If the OP is talking which army has the most potential to be the hardest for SM to defeat, it could well be Orks, for as the fluff always say, that if all the Orks actually stopped fighting each other and combined their forces, they would pwn the universe, but they're dumb, so there goes that

When it comes down to Fluff, and what is happening right now (in the 41st Millenium ) Necrons are IMHO pretty hard to defeat, because even in the Fall of Damnos novel, the Space Marines spent that whole time liberating ONE city. Kellenport or sumfin (long time since read it). Even the Cron's CORE unit can destroy a friggin Land Raider! The new Dex has addressed the lack of vehicles, the lack of strategy, the completely stupid Phase-Out rule, the lack of personality etc. .But victory depends on how extensive the revivication protocols are, as they dictate the strength of a Tomb World's Army.

Now, if it came down to Tabletop games, I'd be tempted to Troll yooz and say Necron's , but to praise another race beside the Almighty Necrons, I might have to say maybe even other SM type armies like BA or maybe GK, but for non-imperium maybe with all the new models maybe the Great Enemy, i.e. Chaos Space Marines/Chaos Daemons.

P.s. I only just realised that the Necrons, BA and GK were all written by Matt Ward

I think people are seriously underestimating the Dark Elder and Tau.

Dark Elder are a purely offensive army, the 'deep strike and kill their leader' tactic doesn't work because you will teleport 15 meters behind you where your men are being stabbed in the back. You can't attack the DE because they retreat into Webway as soon as they are fineshed. Only once have SM gotten into the Webway and that was because Asdrubal Vect intentionally left the gate unlocked to get rid of his rivals. Space Marines do not suit fighting DE because they are quickly outmanned, outgunned, and outmaneuvered. As soon as the DE have pillaged through a Chapter they will disappear only to reappear, fresh, the next day.

SM and Tau have had very little engagements, side from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. I quote now, codex on my lap "The Crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but was gradually worn down by the Tau untill they found thenmselves stalemated a long way from their own bases. Titans exchanged fire with hovering Manta missile destroyers, Imperial Guard fought hand-to-hand with Kroot mercenaries, and Space Marines learned to respect the courage and skill of the Fire caste." To stop a Crusade consisting of half a dozen chapters and the Imperial Juggernaut is a huge feat. Even having having Space Marines who started the Crusade thinking they were crushing some upstart children to them respecting the Tau as dangerous and powerful warriors takes a lot.

Just saying, don't count them out.

ps: The whole point of 40k is that all of the Races are equally powerful in their ways, there is no point in having one army that can smash every other, or having an army that is little more than a punching bag.

 fleet of claw wrote:
I think people are seriously underestimating the Dark Elder and Tau.

Dark Elder are a purely offensive army, the 'deep strike and kill their leader' tactic doesn't work because you will teleport 15 meters behind you where your men are being stabbed in the back. You can't attack the DE because they retreat into Webway as soon as they are fineshed. Only once have SM gotten into the Webway and that was because Asdrubal Vect intentionally left the gate unlocked to get rid of his rivals. Space Marines do not suit fighting DE because they are quickly outmanned, outgunned, and outmaneuvered. As soon as the DE have pillaged through a Chapter they will disappear only to reappear, fresh, the next day.

SM and Tau have had very little engagements, side from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. I quote now, codex on my lap "The Crusade fought its way across Dal'yth Prime but was gradually worn down by the Tau untill they found thenmselves stalemated a long way from their own bases. Titans exchanged fire with hovering Manta missile destroyers, Imperial Guard fought hand-to-hand with Kroot mercenaries, and Space Marines learned to respect the courage and skill of the Fire caste." To stop a Crusade consisting of half a dozen chapters and the Imperial Juggernaut is a huge feat. Even having having Space Marines who started the Crusade thinking they were crushing some upstart children to them respecting the Tau as dangerous and powerful warriors takes a lot.

Just saying, don't count them out.

ps: The whole point of 40k is that all of the Races are equally powerful in their ways, there is no point in having one army that can smash every other, or having an army that is little more than a punching bag.

As much as I agree with this statement it is a hard one to really justify since some fluff of some armys (such as tyranids) are in a sense maybe more "overpowering" than others, an example this is Tyranids how once a tendril hits a planert there is no way of stopping it only blunting it but it will always be there and the populace of that sector will be engulf in eternal war, or be devored. my personal opinion is that I hope in the future codex's they will put they will make this staement stand ,such as in the next nid codex they could say a way to combat the Tyranids is to poison the digestion pools or every time a tyrant overlord dies it also hurts the Hive mind and it hurts the Hivemind in a minor manner to help to remake the tyrant to adapt, or as like in dawn of war II the directly poison the Hive mind and warp things also hurts the synapse or warp energy incinerates 'nids such as opening a warp gate to engulf the planet into the warp incinerating the tyranids who are on the planet and the tendril units going into the planet (since 'Nids cannot enter the warp) , like a two edged blade, in a sense of the Tyranids are unstoppable but if you hit in the right place in time then the splinter fleet will retreat towards its main tendril, this would be more hopeful and make this statement stand IMO.

Like i said I agree with your statement, but in some cases with some of the current fluff its quite hard to justify.

The Dark Eldar didn't exactly put up a good fight when Comorragh was attacked by Space Marines, and that was when they had the massively superior numbers and knowledge of the territory.

1068SCP wrote:
The Dark Eldar didn't exactly put up a good fight when Comorragh was attacked by Space Marines, and that was when they had the massively superior numbers and knowledge of the territory.

Here is a little extract from the Codex, pages 13-15

Asdrubal Vect hid the mainstay of his forces from the Space Marines. In the Dark Eldar codex it says that Two dozen strike cruisers, bearing hearaldry from the Salamanders, Silver Skulls and Howling Griffons, and the Battle barge Vulkans Wrath, somehow recieved coordinates to the Desaderian portal, which mysteriously been left fully operationalk, its guards slain and its controls locked out so that it could not close.

Hundreds of Voidraven bombers and Razorwing jetfighters desceded upon the strike cruisers. Many were blown out of the sky by roaring broadsides, but they systematically took out the Imperial ships' guns with focused void lance fire and sustained barrages from disintegrator cannons. Even the battle barge Vulkan's Wrath had the majority of its weapons systems rendered useless.

High Archon Kraillach himself led a massed charge against the 500 strong Space Marine force that had established a perimeter in the streets of Commorragh. He cut a path through the disciplined ranks of SM. He killed SM with each thrust of his powered blade, untill his rampage was halted by a "Stray" blast from a Dark Lance.

When the Wyches of the Cult of Strife joined the fight, hundreds of Wyches ran through the SM ranks, and helmets began to roll. Lelith Hesperax lead the charge. Nearby, the patrician Archon Yllithian of the Silent Scream attacked to prove his right to rule. The Space Marines fell back; they had already lost half their number. Lelith paused for barely a second before cutting down Yllithian and his warriors. With their part in Vect's plan played out, Lelith and her Wyches melted away into the mists.


I advise you people to read the codices of every race before you answer questions such as the like of the OP. No offense of course.

The Space Marine forces split under the attackes of the Dark Elder Kabals, no matter how much destruction they caused to Commorragh.

No bias but I think the Dark Elder are perfect to fighting Space Marines

Yes. Armies' effectiveness against Space Marines depends on the circumstances, the available forces, terrain, knowledge of area and tactics, all codices have been made to be able to beat Space Marines, other wise the Imperium wouldn't be under attack so much if the Space Marines were so good.

I say Tyranids are easily the toughest foe, simply because a single Hivefleet is so immense that you'd need to exterminatus countless worlds to stop it. Throw in genestealer cults and rapid evolution and you have a hot mess. The fact that it's sole purpose in life is to eat you also throws in some fun, plus a bio-"fleet" is larger than the entire Imperial Navy.

Chaos always loses and suffers from a villain complex in that, no matter how awesome they are, their plan always fails and they go back to the Eye of Terror.

Necrons are too sleepy to be a threat. While they are awesome and can win, they just don't seem to be enough of them.

Orks are plagued by chronic stupidity and randomness. No matter how many of them there are, they just can't focus on a good war. The only time they're dangerous is when the Space Marines choose to fight them.

The Eldar might be tough, but half the time they're secretly helping you because Chaos is involved somewhere. And when they DO mean to kill you, it's usually for a reason you eventually think is pretty good.

Tau are just opportunistic and good at convincing alien races they are right. Too young to be a threat, but the fact that they're immune to the warp means they face less dangers than Space Marines... being less threatening has its advantages.

Dark Eldar are like Vikings, they come, they pillage, they rape, then they disappear. If you just take the policy of "when they come, don't get involved it'll all be over soon" then these guys wouldn't bother anybody but the people they capture.

Every Codex tries to sell the army to the reader by making them seem overpowered. Somewhere in every codex it will say "[Insert Race Here] Will always win [they are unstoppable in their quest to purge the Galaxy/ other reason]. If the Codex doesn't make an army sound ridiculously powerful, there is little point in collecting them, because lets face it, no one wants to be the guy who is getting shat on every time.


Sure the fluff might seem overpowering, but try and look at potential and past engagements as well.

Xyrael wrote:
I say Tyranids are easily the toughest foe, simply because a single Hivefleet is so immense

Yep.

Tyranids are a star-system(s) level threat. Marines are mostly a city-level solution.

It's purely a scale problem there.

Can the average Marine force deal with some splinter pod of 'Nids? Sure. They can even band dozens of chapters together to fight off a hive fleet. But it's far more common for Tyranids to be fighting on the planets-wide scale than Marines.

In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.

Space Marines excel in lightning fast strikes and raids deep into enemy territory, with a set purpose. They normally let the enemy weaken themselves against IG before finishing them off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

In the scale of 40k conflict, Marines aren't for wars, they are for battles.

Space Marines excel in lightning fast strikes and raids deep into enemy territory, with a set purpose. They normally let the enemy weaken themselves against IG before finishing them off.

I've never lost against vanilla marines, when playing my IG army. But I guess we're not talking tabletop here.

Fluffwise, I'd say every army has an equal chance vs. any other.

I don't think the equal chances is necessarily right.

Whether an army would win over another army is basically entirely situational.

Again, realistically, barring plot armor, anything with even meager airborne capabilities, artillery, and some numbers will prove an unbeatable opponent for a Space Marine chapter, as they lack so many components and being of such small size are very easily encircled. Doesn't matter who/what it is, it's all a question of scale. Realistically, the entirety of the Astartes would be more suited for a war on a scale of WW2's eastern front. Their numbers really make them quite hilariously easy to deal with if you look at them in any realistic light and don't just assume they auto-win through sheer awesome-power.

Chaos.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't think the equal chances is necessarily right.

Whether an army would win over another army is basically entirely situational.

Yeeeaaaah... I think that's almost the very definition of equal chance. Then again, from looking at many of your other posts, I believe you are being contrary, just for the sake of being contrary. I could be wrong, though.

Melissia isn't contrary for the sake of being contrary; she's contrary for the sake of being biased against Space Marines.

Anyway, "it's situational" is and always will be a semantics cop-out. When you compare two combatants you don't compare them literally as "who would win in a fight", you compare them as who would win on average by comparing their strengths and their weaknesses. It's much easier to have a logical discussion about averages than it is specifically about a hypothetical fight.

A Commisar can defeat a Space Marine in mortal kombat every now and again, and/or depending on the circumstances. On average, though, a Space Marine would kick a Commisar's ass.

Space Marines might lose against an army of Tau, depending on the circumstances, but on average, they would have an easier time kicking a Tau army's ass than they would defeating, say, a Tyranid splinter-fleet.

Worst enemy in combat? Anyone the writer has a hard on for. I could care less.

In general? The Ecclesiarchy.

Space marines are probably the closest thing the Imperium has left of Empy's original vision and the Ecclesiarchy completely b*ttraped Empy's life's work.

If I were a space marine I'd loath the Imperial church beyond anything Chaos or the Xenos could throw at me.

Funny that, considering that the Emperor has endorsed the Ecclesiarchy in times since the Horus Heresy.

Who's doing what now?

Living Saints, the founding of the Sisters of Battle, as well as the lead up to Sebastian Thor's reforms all come to mind as examples.

Whether or not he likes the Ecclesiarchy is debatable, but he is very willing to use it for his own ends.

Orks for sure, a foot sloggin' army can outnumber them in a wave of choppas.

Any army/race that is able to deny them their mobility & force them to fight pitched battles where they are outnumbered 50:1 or more.

 Melissia wrote:
Living Saints, the founding of the Sisters of Battle, as well as the lead up to Sebastian Thor's reforms all come to mind as examples.

Whether or not he likes the Ecclesiarchy is debatable, but he is very willing to use it for his own ends.

I never did understand how the whole Saint business worked.

As to the whole Age of Apostasy, Empy's supposed intervention could be considered to be more of a disapproval of Vandire's reign rather than an active endorsement of the church. That's how I interpret it anyway.

Eldar/Chaos uses orks for their own ends, doesn't mean they're happy to have them around.

The Ecclesiarchy is, by it's very nature, a perversion of the Emperor's ideals. Though, ironically, it may succeed where he failed, keeping the Imperium in one piece.

Or you know, the big ass Warp Storm that suddenly came into existence could be a fluke or Tzeentch shenanigans.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Or you know, the big ass Warp Storm that suddenly came into existence could be a fluke or Tzeentch shenanigans.

Yeah, everyone says "oh, it's Tzeench's plan", or "oh, it's the deciever's plan", or some other nonsense ,but that's really all it is-- nonsense. There's nothing really from GW that suggests that this is the case; it's little more than wishful thinking.

 Popenfresh wrote:
I never did understand how the whole Saint business worked.

Saints show no evidence of psychic powers (despite what certain chaos fanboys would claim) or warp shenanigans, and every single depiction of them has them be anathema to the forces of chaos and psychic power. What exactly they are, GW intentionally leaves a mystery, but they aren't psykers or warp-constructs.

It's similar to Acts of Faith. They are not psychic in nature nor linked to the warp-- what are they, then? GW offers only a few vague explanations for them, and they don't satisfy everyone, so some people like to make up crap about how they're really psychic powers despite the fact that every single source says otherwise, with not a single exception.

 Popenfresh wrote:
As to the whole Age of Apostasy, Empy's supposed intervention could be considered to be more of a disapproval of Vandire's reign rather than an active endorsement of the church.

I can see that argument, but he DID approve of the Daughters of the Emperor at any rate-- sending his most trusted servant to have them meet with him personally, and give them visions that would serve to guide the nascent Sisters of Battle in to the future.

At the very least, the Daughters have been more loyal than his Sons.

 Popenfresh wrote:
The Ecclesiarchy is, by it's very nature, a perversion of the Emperor's ideals.

That depends on how seriously you take the "Imperial Truth" to actually be the Emperor's ideals. Personally, I view the Truth as nothing more than a tool that the Emperor used to try to weaken the forces of Chaos.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, everyone says "oh, it's Tzeench's plan", or "oh, it's the deciever's plan", or some other nonsense ,but that's really all it is-- nonsense. There's nothing really from GW that suggests that this is the case; it's little more than wishful thinking.

Can you provide an official statement from GW on what created the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath then?

That's a rhetorical question. No such statement exists.

What Sebastian Thor thinks created it means exactly nothing in terms of emperical evidence.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Can you provide an official statement from GW on what created the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath then?

That's a rhetorical question. No such statement exists.

What Sebastian Thor thinks created it means exactly nothing in terms of emperical evidence.

Actually, it's what the majority of Imperial scholars think, not just Sebastian Thor. There's literally nothing to suggest that Tzeentch did it-- or even that he was capable of doing it.

Horde armies. Orks nids and necrons are really the best. Space marines are not ment for long battles. Their main tactics are hit and run. If they dont destroy the leadership for the orks then they can expect waves upon waves of ork fighters coming at them. Same for nids. Necrons, just have destroy them till they leave you alone. Each one of them can take the space marines hits and hit back. That is something space marines really dont want.
Also chaos. Just because in the end chaos will always be there.