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All armies except Eldar and equivalents are horde armies to Space Marines.

Hordes are only extremely dangerous if whacking the leader of said horde won't give them the auto-GG. Thus, Orks are disqualified.

Wouldn't really consider 'Crons to be a horde army; but, Nids and Necrons are a Space Marine's toughest enemy to beat.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Hordes are only extremely dangerous if whacking the leader of said horde won't give them the auto-GG. Thus, Orks are disqualified.

That's not necessarily true even.

A horde of Orks with a target to kill won't care much if their leaders are dead. Orks aren't like Tyranids in that regard.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, it's what the majority of Imperial scholars think, not just Sebastian Thor. There's literally nothing to suggest that Tzeentch did it-- or even that he was capable of doing it.

Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?

You don't say.

And hold on now: You're suggesting that Tzeentch would be incapable of something as fething paltry as a Warp Storm?

lolwut

Aetaos'rau'keres, a "mere" Lord of Change, can create Warp Storms. And in fact, Warp Storms were created by the Chaos Gods throughout the galaxy to impede Astropathy and Imperial Travel in the years leading up to and during the Heresy, notably, this is how the Word Bearers caught the Ultramarines with their pants down at Calth. The Ultramarines had no idea of Horus's treachery.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

And hold on now: You're suggesting that Tzeentch would be incapable of something as fething paltry as a Warp Storm?

Ah, but most of those Warp storms don't swallow up entire Imperial fleets. The Chaos Gods obviously couldn't simply destroy Loyalist fleets as they moved through the Warp during the Horus Heresy at will. Something stops them.

Some Warp Storms destroy entire fleets, some blow them entirely off course lightyears away, some trap ships in the Warp entirely.

Warp Storms are not predictable.

Also, the Warp phenomena created apparently by Angron in The Emperor's Gift either destroyed or irrevocably corrupted every Space Wolf ship sent to make distress calls for Titan, as well as entirely masking his own presence in the Materium from even the strongest of seers.

Come on dude, please don't suggest that Tzeentch is incapable of destroying a fleet in the Warp.

 Melissia wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:
Hordes are only extremely dangerous if whacking the leader of said horde won't give them the auto-GG. Thus, Orks are disqualified.

That's not necessarily true even.

A horde of Orks with a target to kill won't care much if their leaders are dead. Orks aren't like Tyranids in that regard.

Tell that to the Orks who started mindlessly slaughtering each other even as a Tyranid army was bearing down on them, for literally no reason other than the fact that their Warboss had been slain. See: Kryptman's Gambit for details.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Also, the Warp phenomena created apparently by Angron in The Emperor's Gift either destroyed or irrevocably corrupted every Space Wolf ship sent to make distress calls for Titan, as well as entirely masking his own presence in the Materium from even the strongest of seers.

Come on dude, please don't suggest that Tzeentch is incapable of destroying a fleet in the Warp.

How did the message eventually get through?

I'm not. I'm saying that it's not easy for the Chaos Gods to do, otherwise they'd have have completely won the Heresy with the Emperor facing several Legions with only the Imperial Fists of the Loyalists on Terra.

BlaxicanX wrote:Tell that to the Orks who started mindlessly slaughtering each other even as a Tyranid army was bearing down on them, for literally no reason other than the fact that their Warboss had been slain. See: Kryptman's Gambit for details.

If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
How did the message eventually get through?

I'm not. I'm saying that it's not easy for the Chaos Gods to do, otherwise they'd have have completely won the Heresy with the Emperor facing several Legions with only the Imperial Fists of the Loyalists on Terra.

A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.

Interesting.

So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?

Very interesting.

Context is really everything here. Dark Eldar raiders will be a lot worse for them then simple human pirates. A full-scale Waaaagh! and Tyranid hive fleet vs. a Chaos warband? As is true with most things in 40k there is no broad answer.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.


So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?

Huh. Good on that survivor.

No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.

No, it's specifically stated in the article that as soon as the Warboss was killed, the boys "began in-fighting among each other" which made them "easy prey for the Tyranid swarm".

The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

A single Space Wolf survivor on a single Space Wolf starship, which had been wrecked and possessed.


So because they could not on a whim destroy every loyalist fleet in the galaxy with a galaxy-wide Warp Storm, one could not create a Warp Storm the size of a single star system to destroy a single fleet?

Huh. Good on that survivor.

No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.

They blew up Caliban with a warp storm in a fit of rage.

BlaxicanX wrote:

The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.

Yes it does. It affected how the Orks viewed the Tyranids both prior to and after the Warboss' death. The Tyranids didn't portray themselves as a 'proper' fight or as a worthy opponent. Had they consistently done so, the Orks wouldn't have fractured so. They would have lost some leadership, but it would have been unlikely to have led to such infighting.

FinalAnswer wrote:They blew up Caliban with a warp storm in a fit of rage.

After it was already half destroyed if I recall correctly. They also had minions feeding them power on that planet. They couldn't and still can't blow up planets at will.

BlaxicanX wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

If you're referring to the first planet Leviathan got to in the Octavius Empire, that was because the Tyranids didn't produce a target for the Orks. The whole point was that they hid until they had the numbers to simply overrun the Orks. Orks don't like guerilla warfare as they find it boring. They enjoy enemies they can get to grips with and have a good fight with, not ones who kill a few Boyz and then flee.

No, it's specifically stated in the article that as soon as the Warboss was killed, the boys "began in-fighting among each other" which made them "easy prey for the Tyranid swarm".

The asymmetrical warfare the Tyranids were using before the Warboss' death has nothing to do with the Orks behavior after his death.

But they had been losing the war before the death of Skarfang. If he hadnt died then the nids would have lost. But he died before that, The nids were using guerilla tactics which morst orks hate. Plus they were smaller then usual, so probably they were not in front of them. this is a campaign setting. We are talking about a battle. The space marines are right in front of them\in the area The orks will probably know about them. If not they will know about them real soon. In the end just takes a charge then it will not matter if the warboss is killed, the orks will be beserk over them. Unlike nids who shall retreat. Orks are indeed a viable enemy agaisnt space marines in BATTLES, or else they wouldnt be the table top game would be completly messed up whenever a warboss died.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
No, because the Chaos Gods, as far as I know, have never been shown to be able to target a Warp storm at an opponent without people helping them within the Materium. I've never read that they're able to direct Warp storms at their leisure in any background.

You know, except for the whole "Creating Warp Storms to disallow accurate clairvoyance, reliable astropathy, and Warp travel throughout the galaxy".

Ferrus Manus notes in Fulgrim that they have to navigate and sail very carefully, having lost ships in the turbulence of the Warp.

This is all ignoring that relative weaklings like Cherubael and that really hard to remember Lord of Change whom I posted before can create Warp Storms at their leisure, against their foes.

And this is all frankly irrelevant, whether a Chaos God created a Warp Storm for the purpose of impeding Vandire or if that was a side-effect they could not have given a gak about means little to nothing. Melissia was using Thor and random scholars' biased and unsupported beliefs as empirical evidence for her point, and I only noted that there are, in fact, other explanations for the origin of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Nids.

The simple fact is, well... they're nids. I'll explain.

You defeat the nids, they grow stronger, unless you completely destroy the corpses.

They win, they don't get weakened by it, they multiply by a lot.

It is a sea. Even a bolter will run out of ammo, and then they're on you.

And worst? The Hive Fleets are gigantic. But these are simply splinters of the main tendril - you're facing less than a hundredth of the entire tyranid war machine, all across the galaxy. The day that the main tendril reaches the galaxy, that is the day you commit exterminatus in space.

Tau don't openly wage war but when they do you are f**ked

Shas'O T'au Kais wrote:
Tau don't openly wage war but when they do you are f**ked

*Cough cough* War of Dakka *Cough cough* Sorry Im coming down with a case of WAAAGGHHH!!!

 Void__Dragon wrote:

You know, except for the whole "Creating Warp Storms to disallow accurate clairvoyance, reliable astropathy, and Warp travel throughout the galaxy".

Ferrus Manus notes in Fulgrim that they have to navigate and sail very carefully, having lost ships in the turbulence of the Warp.

Which is still a lot different to simply destroying large war fleets. The Loyalists were still capable of reaching where they needed to go, it just took longer. Also, at least some of Warp Storms seem to have been created by their mortal servants.

This is all ignoring that relative weaklings like Cherubael and that really hard to remember Lord of Change whom I posted before can create Warp Storms at their leisure, against their foes.

I can't really comment on these having not read about them, although I'd suggest a Daemon in the Materium would be able to affect it differently to more powerful entities locked with in the Warp. For one thing, it would have a different perspective on the events.

Melissia was using Thor and random scholars' biased and unsupported beliefs as empirical evidence for her point, and I only noted that there are, in fact, other explanations for the origin of the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Fair enough, can't really argue with this.

willhman wrote:

Shas'O T'au Kais wrote:
Tau don't openly wage war but when they do you are f**ked

*Cough cough* War of Dakka *Cough cough* Sorry Im coming down with a case of WAAAGGHHH!!!

No SMs in the war of dakka though.

nomotog wrote:

willhman wrote:

Shas'O T'au Kais wrote:
Tau don't openly wage war but when they do you are f**ked

*Cough cough* War of Dakka *Cough cough* Sorry Im coming down with a case of WAAAGGHHH!!!

No SMs in the war of dakka though.

True but it shows that with a competent leader the orks can indeed fight anyrace, and that their leadership wont be able to be assasinated so easily

willhman wrote:

nomotog wrote:

willhman wrote:

Shas'O T'au Kais wrote:
Tau don't openly wage war but when they do you are f**ked

*Cough cough* War of Dakka *Cough cough* Sorry Im coming down with a case of WAAAGGHHH!!!

No SMs in the war of dakka though.

True but it shows that with a competent leader the orks can indeed fight anyrace, and that their leadership wont be able to be assasinated so easily

True. assassinating a warboss is not a easy feat. Maybe orks aren't the easiest for SMs to beat. Still kind of easy comparatively though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?

If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.

Not even tzeentch's own servants believe the stuff you're saying, nevermind those in universe that have participated in/have access to thousands of years of reserach on the topic. The Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus in particular, both of whom concern themselves with exactly this topic any time a "Living Saint" entity comes around.

I wouldn't put it past the Inquisition to lie about such events though.

Isn't there an instance where they called exerminatus upon a planet, after it's inhabitants drove off a demon incursion on their own, and blamed it on the Eldar instead?

I'd argue that every enemy other than the Imperial Guard are a problem for Space Marines, since they were an evolution of the Thunder Warriors built to fight the armies of other human warlords.

The Marines wield weapons that work best against lightly armored, densely packed groups of infantry. Their armor and resilience give them huge resilience against the small arms wielded by light infantry. Their tactics rely on their opponents being susceptible to surprise and prone to panic in the face of sudden violence.

No one else in the galaxy is vulnerable to everything in the Astartes arsenal and tactics.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?

If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.

Please do't use strawmans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Oh? A militantly and mindlessly religious empire have attributed a Warp phenomenon to the Emperor without any evidence to back it up?

If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.

Please don't use strawmans.

 Melissia wrote:
If you think that the Imperium, especially the Inquisition, has never attempted to research the Emperor, ever, then you probably don't care about the lore to begin with.

Not even tzeentch's own servants believe the stuff you're saying, nevermind those in universe that have participated in/have access to thousands of years of reserach on the topic. The Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus in particular, both of whom concern themselves with exactly this topic any time a "Living Saint" entity comes around.

lol.

That is what we call a strawman.

Please, by all means, show me what Tzeentch's servants believe concerning the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Please, by all means, show me where it is said there is thousands of years of research concerning the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath.

Bringing up the Ordo Malleus is interesting, considering their own opinions on the Living Saints and possibly the Sisters of Battle. Namely, that they are Warp-touched, as said on page six of the Witchhunter's codex.

That the Imperium has done research on the Emperor (And at least one Inquisitor has spoken to him) doesn't mean that they have verified that the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath, is, in fact, caused by him.

I'm not even necessarily stating you're wrong, only noting that to use it as empirical evidence to prove a point is faulty.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."

That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.

Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.

Actually it does. In the overlords section of the codex, it also says that overlords have in addition of a stronger and more powerful body, new and profound intelligence unrivaled by many members of the lesser "upstart" races.

KtheNecron wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
"Zahndrekh and Imotekh are the two best examples" =/= "ALL NECRONS ARE LIKE IMOTEKH AND ZAHNDREKH IN STRATEGY AND TACTICS."

That's exactly what it means if the statement is made in regards to my post. I didn't say that all Necrons fight the same way", I said "generally". Thus, trying to argue that there are examples of necrons fighting otherwise is irrelevant to my point.

Necron Overlords are explicitly stated in their entry to often employ ambush and assassination when dealing with other races, and wipe out the vermin with as much efficiency as possible.

No it doesn't.

You're just buttset that Necrons got pwned by horse-riding Mongolians.

Actually it does. In the overlords section of the codex, it also says that overlords have in addition of a stronger and more powerful body, new and profound intelligence unrivaled by many members of the lesser "upstart" races.

Dude, that is so page 2.