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So my main evidance for Broodlords being able to use auto-hit witchfire powers was Old Old Zogwort. Now that the FAQ says that BS0 can not use any shooting attacks, does that mean poor old Zoggie can't do anything? Nothing in the Orc FAQ that gets him around the BS0 rules.

Heck he can't even use his Curse as it is a shooting attack.

Did I miss something or did they just make Old Old Zogwort the most useless model in the game?

it looks like it
it just aint right

I agree with you that there's no way around that in a tournament.

Not an ork player myself, but I would still let his curse and what-not fly. Sometimes players need to go with how things should work when they see something be useless.

***It is not Games-Workshop's intent to make units obsolete.***

that is a huge oversight from GW expecialy with the FAQ comming out

Weird boy powers hit automaticaly, and don't require BS.

Zogwort's Curse is done in the shooting phase but is not a shooting attack as it doesn't have a "to hit" roll, can be against an opponent in close combat and can be cast by Zogwart when he,himself, is in close combat.

I don't see why a FAQ is needed here.

Zogwart's got no eyes, Yo! He don't need 'em. He just KNOWS where you are.

 Idolator wrote:
Weird boy powers hit automaticaly, and don't require BS.

Doesn't matter. If you have a BS of 0 you cannot make shooting attacks. There are witchfire powers that Broodlords have access to that auto-hit, but they cannot be used according to the FAQ and the BRB.

Technically models without eyes have never been able to hit.

His squig power still works tho.

He was garbage anyways. All weirdboyz are good for is artifical waaaghs.

And since orks can't take book powers anyways it never mattered.

 Idolator wrote:
Weird boy powers hit automaticaly, and don't require BS.

Zogwort's Curse is done in the shooting phase but is not a shooting attack as it doesn't have a "to hit" roll, can be against an opponent in close combat and can be cast by Zogwart when he,himself, is in close combat.

I don't see why a FAQ is needed here.

FAQ specificly states that:

Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting attack
– see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3.

Doesn't mater if they auto-hit. Shooting attacks can not be done.
Frazzle: Shooting attack
ZZap: Shooting attack


Looks like his special attack will still work as it does not have a shooting profile even if it is used in the Shooting phase.

Still what happens if you roll ZZap. Must use it vs can't use. So nothing happens I assume.

This is just silly. RAW or not. If a model suddenly can't use 2 of his 6 powers, it's an oversight, and I'd seriously dreadsock antbody across the table for claiming otherwise.

Geez.

//Calle

 Jag_Calle wrote:
This is just silly. RAW or not. If a model suddenly can't use 2 of his 6 powers, it's an oversight, and I'd seriously dreadsock antbody across the table for claiming otherwise.

Geez.

//Calle

So Broodlords shouldn't be able to use any of the Witchfire powers they're allowed to roll for, but Zogwort should?
There's a couple of disciplines I can't even default to the Primaris power on because it's Witchfire.

Don't put words in my mouth that I haven't written.

I wrote about the weirdboy old zog. I did not mention broodlords nor little purplies up there.

I will not write about either broodlords, nor little purplies, as I know nothing about them, not havong played 'nids nor against them, since 4th ed.

Sincerely
//Calle

 Jag_Calle wrote:
Don't put words in my mouth that I haven't written.

I wrote about the weirdboy old zog. I did not mention broodlords nor little purplies up there.

I will not write about either broodlords, nor little purplies, as I know nothing about them, not havong played 'nids nor against them, since 4th ed.

No problem. Broodlords have a 0 Ballistic Skill. The FAQ denies them (well, any model with a BS0) a re-roll or use of witchfire abilities (well, the BRB did first, but the FAQ settled the matter).

You seemed to be arguing that Zogwort (who apparently has a BS0? I'm as familiar with the Ork codex as you are with the Nid codex) should still be able to use his powers, but Broodlords shouldn't.

I argued that the zoggy issue was an oversight on gw's side. I'll let the nids players argue the nid side of things.

I'm not convinced that the ORK powers are shooting attacks.

They just happen in the shooting phase and autohit. It says in the description that they are treated as having shot a weapon, but they aren't actually "shooting" anything. The power does not even have the complete shooting characteristic, as they are not identified as Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire or anything. The only stats are there for damage purposes.

I would contest that perhaps they aren't shooting attacks, just damage dealing powers, which auto hit. Therefor, Zogwart can use them.

Additionally we houseruled that any Broodlord who gets a power he cannot use (shooting attack with his BS0), may regenerate a new power, but only once. So if he gets stuck with another shooting power as the reroll, he is stuck with it. This makes it a little easier for broodlords to get good powers.

Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack? (p37)
A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to
the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).

Those exceptions include that they hit automaticaly.

Obviously weird boys don't follow normal shooting rules.

 Idolator wrote:
Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack? (p37)
A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to
the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).

Those exceptions include that they hit automaticaly.

Obviously weird boys don't follow normal shooting rules.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: What happens if a model with BS0 takes a Snap Shot? Do they
count as having a BS of 1? (13)
A: Models with BS 0 cannot make any form of Shooting
attack – see the rules for zero-level characteristics on page 3.

Amusingly BS is the only stat not mentioned in the ZLC area.

Tyranid FAQ wrote:Q: Can a Tyranid Broodlord (which has BS 0) use a witchfire psychic
power that doesn’t require a roll To Hit? If not, is he able to re-roll the
psychic power because he cannot use it? (p40)
A: No to both questions.

So it doesn't matter if the power automatically hits - you can't make any form of Shooting attack. The FAQ defines Frazzle and Zzap as PSAs, and if Zoggy has a 0 BS he cannot use them.

*Sigh*

So what makes more sense here people... an ork model who is depicted channeling lightning, systemic energy of the waaagh actually being able to use his powers since it was in his codex in the first place with plenty of source material and references for the model to be used as RAI

While our counter point which is being claimed as apples to apples (which it clearly isn't) is a creature never depicted with magic, throwing energy or doing anything other than really just being a badass genestealer with some minor mutation powers NOT having access to ranged powers because of his knife like hands?

Seriously all this complaint would do is just give Weirdboyz BS skill and leave you in the same boat as you were. So why complain? sorry your FAQ nailed you to the wall but is it really accomplishing anything other than whining? I don't think so please just adapt.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Seriously all this complaint would do is just give Weirdboyz BS skill and leave you in the same boat as you were. So why complain? sorry your FAQ nailed you to the wall but is it really accomplishing anything other than whining? I don't think so please just adapt.

I have adapted. I'm not complaining about the FAQ at all.
Someone asked if Zogwort can't use PSAs because he has a BS0.
I've posted rules as to why he can't.
GW may have intended him to be able to, but right now by the actual rules and not fluff or wishes and dreams he can't.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Seriously all this complaint would do is just give Weirdboyz BS skill and leave you in the same boat as you were. So why complain? sorry your FAQ nailed you to the wall but is it really accomplishing anything other than whining? I don't think so please just adapt.

I have adapted. I'm not complaining about the FAQ at all.
Someone asked if Zogwort can't use PSAs because he has a BS0.
I've posted rules as to why he can't.
GW may have intended him to be able to, but right now by the actual rules and not fluff or wishes and dreams he can't.

But, that restriction is in the BRB FAQ right?

Doesn't Codex still trump it as it has specific instructions on how to "play" those powers... right?

 whembly wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
Seriously all this complaint would do is just give Weirdboyz BS skill and leave you in the same boat as you were. So why complain? sorry your FAQ nailed you to the wall but is it really accomplishing anything other than whining? I don't think so please just adapt.

I have adapted. I'm not complaining about the FAQ at all.
Someone asked if Zogwort can't use PSAs because he has a BS0.
I've posted rules as to why he can't.
GW may have intended him to be able to, but right now by the actual rules and not fluff or wishes and dreams he can't.

But, that restriction is in the BRB FAQ right?

Doesn't Codex still trump it as it has specific instructions on how to "play" those powers... right?

Codex only trumps in a conflict. The BRB says BS0 can't shoot whatsoever. Codex says this power autohits and works like this. It auto-hitting doesn't matter - he can't even shoot.
If the codex says something like "this power autohits regardless of the BS0 the model has" or some other way calling out the restriction then it'd conflict and work.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:
So what makes more sense here people... an ork model who is depicted channeling lightning, systemic energy of the waaagh actually being able to use his powers since it was in his codex in the first place with plenty of source material and references for the model to be used as RAI

Oh Nids are dead to rights and we know it. I was just concerned that in fixing the Broodlord loophole they hurt Zogwort.

I hate it when they make some grand decleration and hurt some cool special charater that few people use and even fewer will after this.

Yeah, this sucks big time but rigeld2 is right.
Just like auto-hitting does not go around LOS, targetting, being unable to shoot because of shaken vehicle etc. it does not bypass BS0 "no shooting" thing.
Hitting (which he does automatically) is N'th step in the process you cannot even begin at all.

This is just silly... Seriously, don't people see that? This is like the "fix" applied against the *irony detector blows up* first turn assaulting single koptas with buzz saws. Did they FAQ that unit sizes was changed to 3-5? No. Did they change that you could only take one saw per three koptas? No. Did they simply write "seriously guys, knock it off already. Just don't"? No. Did they change vehicle rules so that they count as moving if someone assaults 'em on turn one? No. Did they change it to: no one, looking specifically at you OP orks *remains of irony detector suffers secondary explosions* here, may use theirr units to assault anything, on their first game turn? No.

They made the ruling that no unit, can assault on its first turn, thereby nuke-nerfing kommandos (who usually actually did, but threatened to do, which altered the enemys plans. That's right, they never wtfpawned every single enemy. Not even sneaky snikrot, though he sometimes killed something, due to his, and a minimal units cost, he rarely made his points back).

Thanks GW, in your effort to get rid off instawin-button sawkoptas *what remains of the irony detector fizzles a bit* (that had a 50-50 chance of pening a chimera and then a 2/6 chance of killing it), you killed a playstyle of orks (kommando heavy blood axes) that required thought, and strategy, the influence on your opponents deployment and plans, by sheer threat and what if's. Yay.

Gah! Seriously! Can they hire a frikkin rules lawyer to translate their half-arsed ideas of balancing and fixing into propper rules, that only affect the thing they're trying to fix?!?

*rant off* sorry you had to witness that folks.
Rai is clear, broodlord is not to do magic. The end. Raw is farked. Meaning the ork weirdboy can't be weird 3/7 times.

Sincerely
//Calle

Good catch, Gloomfang.