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Yeah, yeah. It's another one of these, I know. I promise to make it better than usual.

Anyways, I've been tinkering with the idea of starting a second army for a few years now, and have been doing the obligatory reading everyone's codex thing, and the oggling nicely-painted models thing, and a bunch of other stuff, and while I've actually purchased and painted a few things (some will remember my khorne berzerkers), I'm still trying to make this decision with my customary overdeliberation. While most of picking an army is subjective, I stumbled upon another metric tonight that I thought I could use input on.

There are certain armies that I hate playing against. It's not just that they're strong, or that I lose. The problem is that I only find a game satisfying if I can really get to grips with my opponent. I have a friend who used to be very into MTG, and he related how that game used to have a problem with what he called "masturbation" decks. You both show up, and your opponent does stuff but, for whatever reason, you can't really do that much (and so, in effect, instead of playing a game with another person, they're more or less playing with themselves, hence the name). Examples of these armies for me include...

- My nemesis in 4th ed was MSM tau (and, by extention, eldar jetbike armies). In your turn, you move guys out, shoot them, and move them back. In my turn, I don't have any targets. I could try and press the attack, but I'd need to spend a turn or two out in the open and get hideously ripped apart by both the MSMers and the long-range support stuff. This ability also allows for a person to keep shooting while also staying out of assault range. I can't shoot, I can't assault. I'm not really playing. You're playing with yourself.

- My nemesis in 5th ed was skimmer spam. I'm never, ever getting anything into assault against a skimmer army. Probably not going to get special weapons into range if I do. If I move out into the open, all of the skimmers descend on one spot and rip everything to pieces out in the open. I can't assault, I can't do much movement, I can't do much shooting. I'm relegated to the point of sitting still and rolling dice with long-range weapons. I could have played yahtzee at home.

- My quickly emerging nemesis in 6th ed is gunlines. Once again, little movement. No assault. Unlikely to have much close range shooting. Yahtzee. Worst of all, it seems to relegate the game to "who has the best codex right now?" as what little player skill there is is stripped out without things like movement or assault. It really doesn't feel like a game against gunlines - it feels like rolling a couple of dice and then one person loses (now, in 6th ed, it seems that one person has basically won by the bottom of turn 2, and the rest is a joyless slog to finish out the immobile gun rolling.

Yes, any army can, in theory be set up to handle these problem players and their awful lists. Not all armies, however, are as good at it as others. If my opponent refuses to play a real game with me, then the burden really does rest squarely on me to make the game interesting at all. Furthermore, if I'm going to play boring games, I might as well win crushing victories. Not only will this alleviate the problem somewhat, but it will also encourage players to stop playing tedious armies designed to limit what your opponent can do (a.k.a. "play") as much as possible.

So, the question I'm putting to everybody is what army can best do this? Who can best blow apart MSM armies, DE skimmer spam, and guard leafblowers/GK psy-ammo spam, etc.?

There is only one condition that I'm going to place on this otherwise open-ended question, and that is that I don't want to PLAY any of the armies that I hate. I refuse to propagate the problem in an attempt to solve the problem.

Otherwise, don't bother about things like fluff or cost or aesthetic, on the one hand, or how to defeat a horde or LR spam or drop pods on the other. I'd rather lose to a horde player than win against a gunline player any day...

Well don't you play gunline guard? What things make you worry?

I don't play gunline guard. Furthermore, I don't want to play gunlines.

As for what makes me worry... wait, did you actually read the OP?

Mawlocs are the ultimate anti-gunline.

You could always play Tyranids

Yes I read it all. I had just gathered the impression from somewhere that your guard was sort of a gunline. Hence I was trying to get your experiences with that to sort of help you kick it off.

I suppose the answer to what could deal with all of those is probably Necrons. Yet, I doubt they're a long term solution and likely more of a short term problem in themselves.

Orks can outshoot lots of things as well as hold up decently in assault. their special rules make for lots of frustrating fun with some funky hijinks and the lot. It's a good way to keep the game fresh and interesting when alooted wagon has a 1/6 chance of driving forward each turn, or a shokk attack gun may blow up, warp your unit into base to base, or cause your opponent to pick up his models from the table without any saves (even invulnerable saves!).

You may find orks interesting. They play similar to IG in some respects, but their special rules may add some variety to the game.

Also, their lootas can outshoot most anything. With a buch of lootas, you'll stomp all over AV 12 and gunlines.

Well, all the things you listed are extremely mobile and defensive armies.

If you want to beat them, you've got two choices. Get into combat fast, and reliably. Or shoot back.

Really, no one can get into combat fast and reliably. You can pull it off from time to time, but you really need to work to stack the deck in your favour. Especially if you're trying to catch skimmers, or run across the field into the teeth of a gunline.

So your only option, to beat those armies, is to join them. Find something that puts out a lot of firepower, and can hold it's own in assault. Purifier spam is still pretty good, but with heaps of effective flyers the Necrons are currently the best option you've got.

I'm going with an Ork Biker army myself. Haven't gotten to try it yet, as it'll take quite a bit of proxying, but maybe you should look into it Ailaros. It's pretty much the polar opposite of foot guard, and with the dark vengeance bikes, you can get bikes really cheap now (bought 21 off of a guy for a $100. Yeah they'll take some work, but they'll be worth it)

Bikers are fast, have S5 Assault 3 twin linked dakkaguns, have a permanent 4+ cover save even in the open, +4 armor save, and are all T5. Plus, they get their hammer of wrath attacks and can cross the board extremely quickly. And that's regular bikers. Nob Bikers are even scarier. And they can all become troops, giving you an extremely fast, hard hitting army that can capture objectives it takes as well. Plus, their commander guy that makes the bikers troops is an ork who drove his bike off a cliff as a ramp, flew THROUGH a titan's still active void shields (catching fire in the process) where he proceeded to land inside the bridge. And you can imagine what an insane, screaming, warboss on a half ton warbike bristling with guns who is also on fire is going to do to a titan's bridge If that's not enough reason, then there is no helping you.

Then you can run deff koptas, Dakka jets, Lootas, Battlewagons, and all sorts of other stuff that's great at cracking gunlines. And you can always use some allied "IG" to represent looted artillery and tanks. For example, you could have a bunch of bikes running forward while some "looted" allied basilisks are clearing guys out from behind aegis lines to soften their targets up. I know it's what I'm doing to alleviate the feeling of "aegishammer 40k"

So, to add further fodder to the mix, here are a couple of things I've been considering:

- Drop pod armies. You can't MSM hide from drop pods. They show up behind terrain and kill you. You can't skimmer run from drop pods, as they show up and kill you. You can't horribly gun down a drop pod army as it desperately attempts to reach your ADL.

Furthermore, by deploying everything in your opponent's face, you're CERTAINLY not denying them the ability to use short-ranged guns or to get into close combat. As well, movement actually makes a difference, and you actually need to have a little bit of strategy in deployment.

- Bikes! Probably the one thing that all three of my problem armies have in common is "closing the gap". Enter bikes. Jetbikes stray close to MSM territory (though I guess I wouldn't have to use them that way), but regular bikes don't. Turboboosting helps against gunlines, and their inherent mobility helps against everything else.

This kind of an army might make things hard for people relying on assault, but, to be fair, assault armies aren't for 6th ed in general. Apart from this, it doesn't do much to deny my opponents the ability to do stuff (and thus suck all the fun out of the game for them).

- Cavalry charge mech list. Basically, you put guys in bawkses and charge them straight at the enemy. It can close the gap against gunlines (depending on the army I'd be playing), and with new flat-out rules, they can actually shoo away some of the more annoying stuff.

On the other side, recieving an armored cavalry charge would be awesome.

The only way I can really think of doing this, though is with LR spam.

- MASS outflankers/deepstrikers. Outside of a drop-pod list, or demons, or GK, I don't really see this, and even then, it appears that there are limits to shunting.

TBH the "problem" lists in question aren't the problem, the problem is that some players don't want to bring the tools to deal with them. I know you love your foot IG, but you can't blame the gunline player for your choice to bring an army that can't handle a gunline. If you're going to put it in terms of "contributing to the problem" like there's some universal standard for "fair" or "fun" armies, then you need to accept that both players share the responsibility for making the game fun. If your opponent shouldn't bring an army that isn't "fun" for you, then you should be obligated to bring an army that's capable of handling all possible opponents without the opponent having to change their list.

(The same is true in Magic to a large degree, btw. If the game isn't interactive, odds are it's your fault for bringing a deck that couldn't force your opponent to interact.)


That said, the solution you're looking for is drop pods. It's the only way to skip that whole "move across the table" step and deliver your army straight to point blank range. And since the gunline has no real mobility, your first turn consists of lethal close-range shooting, and on your second turn you get to charge and start wiping out entire units at a time. In 5th edition there were other options, but the new reserve rules have left drop pod lists as the only army that can deliver 100% straight to the enemy consistently and effectively. All codices with drop pods can probably do the job, so it then comes down to which variety of marines you like best.

Peregrine wrote:TBH the "problem" lists in question aren't the problem, the problem is that some players don't want to bring the tools to deal with them.

I tried to explain this in my OP, but perhaps I wasn't clear enough for you. My problem isn't "I hate losing" nor is it "I don't like playing against strong lists.

My problem is that, no matter how much strategic sense it makes, playing the game to shut down your opponent's ability to do stuff is TFG behavior. The point of playing a game of 40k is for both players to be able to actually play a game. If your opponent brings an assault army, and you systematically deny your opponent's ability to get into assault, then what is your opponent actually getting out of the game? Nothing. Eventually people will (rightly) stop playing you because they don't actually get to PLAY when they're playing against you.

If, in a game of 40k, you're the only one playing, then you're really just playing with yourself, with another person present. It's this kind of abhorrent behavior that I'm trying to countermand.

And to do so in a way that shuts down TFG players without also succumbing to the same kind of list.

And my point is that it's not "abhorrent behavior" when the reason the opponent is failing to get into assault is that they brought a terrible list and refuse to change. If one player can be blamed for bringing a denial list, then the other person needs to be equally blamed for bringing a list without the tools to counter that denial. And that includes the TFG label, since it's equally TFG behavior to refuse to adapt your tactics and require that everyone you play against make poor strategic choices so you can have fun.

To use your MTG example, this is exactly why I gave up on playing "casual" games with people I don't know. There are too many people who bring really bad decks and then get upset when they inevitably lose against anyone who has put any effort into learning strategy. And of course they blame the winner and complain endlessly about "netdecks" or whatever, instead of even considering that the problem might be their failure to adapt to what are often very beatable decks (I'd run into this problem while playing decks that would get absolutely slaughtered in a tournament).

You know Ailaros, if you decide to go the droppod route, you could run them as Lamenters! Then no matter what happens, someone will lament after each game!

In all seriousness though I agree, your only two options for an army that is going to be different enough from your foot guard army to be interesting will be a biker army or a drop pod list. From there it's personal preference to be honest.

The problem with drop pod lists is that the core unit in them; Tactical Marines, aren't very killy. A squad of 10 Marines deepstriking behind a squad of Guardsmen will only kill a couple, and they'll be fairly close together for blasts and so on. Flamers would help this though, while making them less adept at killing vehicles. Sternguard in drop pods can kick a lot of ass though, and Pedro Kantor will make them scoring. This cuts down on how many Tactical squads you have to take.

Biker Marines will be cheaper with the new DV bikers, and their Ravenwing details are easily cut off for the most part. You can take 6 man squads with multimelta attack bikes for a solid, mobile unit that avoids the MSU armies you don't like.

Biker Orks could be really fun too. Take Wazdakka to make them Troops, a Biker Nob command squad, and scratchbuild some cheap buggies for mobile support fire.

If you are having trouble with a gun-line and want a new army, I can think of a few decent options for you. The first is an army with capable of "Null-Deployment", where either all or as many units as possible start the game in reserves. Daemons and Space Marines with Drop Pod Assault are the only armies that can really do this right now, but both are fairly good and put gunline players on the back foot from turn 1 (as there are fewer targets available for them to shoot at and those targets are much closer to their gunline). A second approach is to go with something similar to what gave you trouble in 5th, a high mobility army. These come in 4 flavours, bikes, traditional mech, air mech, and gunboat. The most common biker armies are probably Codex Marine Bikers, Chaos Bikers, and Ork Biker Nobz, but both flavours of Eldar can put decent bike heavy armies on the table. Traditional mech was largely balanced out in this edition now that transports die much more readily to small arms fire, and while it is still good, it's not completely overwhelming. Air mech is the flavour of the month right now, and although right now it has the problems you complain about in some lists (ie, not very interactive), if you hold off about a year, we'll have a couple of new codex and WD releases which will hopefully give all codexes reasonable options to deal with flyers and make the strategy as a whole a lot more fair (for example, one of the worst matchups for Necron Scythe-spam is Orks with Lootas, simply because they can put 3 units on the table that have good AA capabilities without sacrificing on other aspects of their list). Gunboat lists sound the closest to the lists that you were having trouble with (assuming that you were having a lot of trouble with DE). You take open topped transports and use them to get your shooting units close to the enemy. While DE gunboat is quite powerful, the other gunboat options (Battle Wagon Orks and Ghost Ark Necrons), are extremely fair and can be fun.

I'm not sure how much of this is relevant to what you are looking for, but hopefully it points you in the right direction.

You could also trade Kantor for Vulkan with the whole drop pod scheme if you want a more aggressive approach.

Yes, you'll lose the sterns as scoring units but the flamers and meltas you bring on the tacticals will hit much harder. A Combi on the tactical sergeant and it becomes even better.
And if you keep the sterns in, riddle them with combis and your first drops will be quite devastating.

Don't you have a partially finished Khorne themed army?

Perhaps you should wait the 3 weeks until the new CSM are unveiled to see what they have to offer. It seems like right now that codex is going to offer a ton of options that will allow many different builds (even though only a few will probably be really strong). Plus Daemon allies for some deep striking goodness.

Plus, you already have plenty of models as cultist stand ins. Perhaps the return of the Munitorium to Folera was not an act of the Emperor and the priests carry a darker motive.

Ok, two things:

1) Drop pods? Blood Angels. Assault Marines get them for free if you trade in their jetpacks. Plus, Furioso’s and Sanguinary Priests for added hilarity. Or for even more shenanigans, fill a Storm Raven full of TH/SS Termies and use the assault ramp to poop them right in your opponent’s face.
2) Secondly….OP is guilty of the same thing he is complaining about. If you bring an assaulty army that doesn’t have the tools to deal with a gunline (like, say, drop pods) and you demand that your opponents stop playing gunlines so you can have more fun….you’re just as guilty of being TFG as anyone else.

Deamons are awesome, and have plenty of tactical space, probably more so than most armies.

They have their amazing FMCs, that can kill vehicles, flyers and horde on the fly, no problem, as well as being tough as nails, if not downright impossible to kill.

Flamers...speak for themselves. Jump infantry, 2 wounds, a breath attack that wounds/glances anything on a 4+, with no armour saves. Oh and they're 23 points

The best thing about deamons though, has to be how damn cool you can paint stuff. I collect Tzeentch so I can paint things however the hell I feel like, and it looks awesome

 Ailaros wrote:
If your opponent brings an assault army, and you systematically deny your opponent's ability to get into assault, then what is your opponent actually getting out of the game? Nothing. Eventually people will (rightly) stop playing you because they don't actually get to PLAY when they're playing against you.

That's horrific logic. How is it your fault that the guy A) Brought a crappy list. B) Doesn't have the tactical know how to break yours?

 Yojiro wrote:
You could also trade Kantor for Vulkan with the whole drop pod scheme if you want a more aggressive approach.

Yes, you'll lose the sterns as scoring units but the flamers and meltas you bring on the tacticals will hit much harder. A Combi on the tactical sergeant and it becomes even better.
And if you keep the sterns in, riddle them with combis and your first drops will be quite devastating.

or you could be a donkey and bring them both (not competitive but fracking hilarious

 captain collius wrote:

or you could be a donkey and bring them both (not competitive but fracking hilarious

Sounds more expensive than hilarious! You can only benefit from one of their Chapter Tactics. Pedro's is really good for the sustainability of the army since he buffs attacks by +1 on every squad within 12" of him. Assaulting armies will have a hard time fighting Sternguard with 3 base attacks each, and shooting armies won't want to get charged by them.

BlaxicanX wrote:

That's horrific logic. How is it your fault that the guy A) Brought a crappy list. B) Doesn't have the tactical know how to break yours?

There is such a thing as a "hard counter", though in most gaming groups, i.e. amongst friends, it's pretty rare.

For example, a necron guy wouldn't bring 5 flyers if he was fighting his 'nid buddy. I wouldn't bring three vendettas to anything, and that's not just because they cost £55 for a 130 point unit

Can you wait a few months? DA and Chaos come soon.

A few posts are saying bikes. DA have Ravenwing. They also have deep striking Deathwing. Units annoy you jumping out firing and jumping Back? Deep strike on them.

-Loki- wrote:Mawlocs are the ultimate anti-gunline.

You could always play Tyranids

You'll have to forgive my genuine ignorance here, having never played anything remotely similar to nidzilla. How are Malwocs the anti-gunline machine? They seem sort of like artillery that fires every other turn. The S6 Ap2 artillery part is nice, but it doesn't seem like it would do anything to vehicles. More like it would pop up, crunch some infantry, and then get obliterated by shooting the next phase. It seems rather ho-hum to me, but then, as mentioned, never ran MCs, much less MC spam.

The other thing with tyranid, of course, is mycetic spores that can also drop off more MCs, and a hive tyrant can also fly. This all certainly seems to fit the criteria. What's the deal with nidzilla, these days?

Regardless of any aesthetic problems I have with nids (which don't bear consideration at the moment), there is something that is nagging me a little bit. Namely, even if nidzilla works, is it the ONLY thing that works? Yes, I know that they have an old codex, which means their options are more limited, but I get the feeling that this army at the moment offers exactly one solution, and the rest of the codex is likely to get looked over completely.

MrMoustaffa wrote:I'm going with an Ork Biker army myself. Haven't gotten to try it yet, as it'll take quite a bit of proxying, but maybe you should look into it Ailaros.

... which is the second army I've been lurking behind for awhile. Unlike tyranid, it feels like there are more options, even if 2/3ds of said options have been rendered useless by 6th. Namely, it seems like I could do bikes or battlewagon spam, or perhaps (but not necessarily) a speed kult.

The main problem I see with orks (once again, likely a misconception), is that it seems like a guard army with different stats. I think of ork units and I think flimsy. If I'm playing against denial armies, and all that happens is that I unpack my minis just to pack them back up without actually doing anything, then there really isn't any reason to unpack them in the first place.

This is especially true, given that I see ork as a choppy army, and we're now in 6th ed, which hates chopping. I know that you can do shooty ork in general, but I don't want my army to devolve to the thin green line engaged in a rules-heavy version of yahtzee. If 6th sucked the bombastic charge out of the game for horde armies, it seems like I'd wind up with ork where I am with guard - trying to figure out how to still make it a game worth playing against good players who are also TFG players. Put another way, I fear that this won't actually solve my problem.

Peregrine wrote:That said, the solution you're looking for is drop pods. It's the only way to skip that whole "move across the table" step and deliver your army straight to point blank range. All codices with drop pods can probably do the job, so it then comes down to which variety of marines you like best.

Marines being the third major army I'm considering. Unlike tyranid, they have a LOT of options, from drop pods to LR spam to bikes to scout lists. Unlike orks, they always have a fresh codex, so I'd be less likely to have stale codex problems.

The thing that concerns me about SM is their killing power, though. I've roflstomped many a marine player in my day, and I scarcely ever see them win games. Usually it goes where an SM player puts out some damage, and then their opponents get close and crush them with short-range shooting or assault. It seems like, in a way, SM aren't designed to do what I'm wanting from them. Same disclaimer, though. Never actually played.

bogalubov wrote:Don't you have a partially finished Khorne themed army?

Perhaps you should wait the 3 weeks until the new CSM are unveiled to see what they have to offer.

I do, in fact, have two small berzerker squads. Unfortunately, 6th ed completely destroyed how I wanted to use them. Yes, they're about to get a new codex, and, of course, I'll see when it comes out, but I really don't hold high hopes for it at the moment. If my fears come to pass, in order to play CSM, I'd basically be starting a new army from scratch anyways.

Plus, there is a slight aesthetic hangup that I've realised since I put together my berzerkers. I'd really want to have an army devoted to just one chaos god. I don't know how possible that's going to be, but in the current codex, it is somewhat problematic, as it's basically 4 different codices smashed together to make one. If I only want to run slaanesh, for example, I'd be omitting a big chunk of the codex (even moreso if they're supposed to be played in a certain style), which kind of brings up the tyranid problem again.

Testify wrote:Deamons are awesome, and have plenty of tactical space, probably more so than most armies.

So, demons is the dark horse candidate here. I like the idea of "everything deepstrikes!", but I don't like the idea that there is an army out there that is designed to hard counter them. Also, I really don't get them aesthetically either. And I've only ever seen a battle report with them featured like... once?

Demons are just such a mystery to me, I don't know...

 Ailaros wrote:
This is especially true, given that I see ork as a choppy army, and we're now in 6th ed, which hates chopping. I know that you can do shooty ork in general, but I don't want my army to devolve to the thin green line engaged in a rules-heavy version of yahtzee. If 6th sucked the bombastic charge out of the game for horde armies, it seems like I'd wind up with ork where I am with guard - trying to figure out how to still make it a game worth playing against good players who are also TFG players. Put another way, I fear that this won't actually solve my problem.

And, once again, you need to stop calling people TFG for their choice of army. By that standard you're a TFG for forcing your opponents to make poor plays to compensate for your refusal to bring an army that makes use of the available tools for dealing with a gunline/denial/etc list.

The thing that concerns me about SM is their killing power, though. I've roflstomped many a marine player in my day, and I scarcely ever see them win games. Usually it goes where an SM player puts out some damage, and then their opponents get close and crush them with short-range shooting or assault. It seems like, in a way, SM aren't designed to do what I'm wanting from them. Same disclaimer, though. Never actually played.

Well, you said you wanted to kill gunlines at any cost, and gunlines tend to focus on long-range shooting at the expense of close-range shooting and assault ability. For example, the average Tau gunline gains very little firepower as you move from 36" to 6" (compared to, say, mech vets full of plasma/melta), but becomes incredibly vulnerable to shooting and assault. Obviously you'll suffer casualties, but even the survivors of a close-range-optimized drop pod army will quickly slaughter a gunline.

So, demons is the dark horse candidate here. I like the idea of "everything deepstrikes!", but I don't like the idea that there is an army out there that is designed to hard counter them. Also, I really don't get them aesthetically either. And I've only ever seen a battle report with them featured like... once?

Don't forget the mishap problem. Even if you're not facing GK with warp quake (IOW, if you go second you lose the game automatically) a good gunline army is going to have expendable screening units to force you to arrive far away from the real threats. For example, a Tau gunline will bring Kroot or allied IG platoons to occupy the maximum amount of table space around the crisis suits and broadsides, so any deep strike target point that's close enough to the shooting units will carry a high risk of landing on the Kroot and suffering a mishap. On the other hand, if you drop far enough out to be safely clear of the Kroot you're not going to be slaughtering the gunline on turn 2.

The drop pod army avoids this problem since drop pods won't mishap, so you can deploy them as aggressively as possible without taking any risks.

 Ailaros wrote:
You'll have to forgive my genuine ignorance here, having never played anything remotely similar to nidzilla. How are Malwocs the anti-gunline machine? They seem sort of like artillery that fires every other turn. The S6 Ap2 artillery part is nice, but it doesn't seem like it would do anything to vehicles. More like it would pop up, crunch some infantry, and then get obliterated by shooting the next phase. It seems rather ho-hum to me, but then, as mentioned, never ran MCs, much less MC spam.

The part that makes them anti gunline is that they move enemies away from the template after they eat the hit.

Sure, vehicles might not take much damage from the S6 hit, but they'll sure take 'damage' when it pushes them off the table or onto terrain a vehicle treats as impassable. Bonus points when it's a transport full of vets.

Peregrine wrote:The drop pod army avoids this problem since drop pods won't mishap, so you can deploy them as aggressively as possible without taking any risks.

I thought warpquake still mishapped drop pods. I thought that drop pods stopped you from mishapping from terrain or from enemy models, but not from mishapping altogether.

-Loki- wrote:The part that makes them anti gunline is that they move enemies away from the template after they eat the hit.

Sure, vehicles might not take much damage from the S6 hit, but they'll sure take 'damage' when it pushes them off the table or onto terrain a vehicle treats as impassable. Bonus points when it's a transport full of vets.

By "moves away the minimum possible distance", I assume they mean still with a 1" buffer? I can't imagine you'd be able to throw hits down on a vehicle after. Also, how would he be able to throw something off the board? Seems like your opponent could just move the vehicle in a slightly different direction to avoid this.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:The drop pod army avoids this problem since drop pods won't mishap, so you can deploy them as aggressively as possible without taking any risks.

I thought warpquake still mishapped drop pods. I thought that drop pods stopped you from mishapping from terrain or from enemy models, but not from mishapping altogether.

Warp quake still sucks, but I'm talking about the problem of screening units. Both daemons and drop pod armies are vulnerable to warp quake, but daemons are also a lot more vulnerable to bubble wrap.

If you're facing a gunline army with warp quake added, obviously you need a different plan.