Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: From what I understand the Egyptians didn't breach the walls, thus they were not fired upon. There's a difference between donkey-caves being donkey-caves like in Egypt and a mob covering an attack like in Libya.
Most descriptions I've seen say they scaled the walls - that's close enough for government work, far as I'm concerned.
Good thing you are not in charge then.
Marines should only fire to protect lives in direct danger. Not to protect walls or flags.
Clearly you've never been on the other side of a defensive wall with people attacking over it then... you don't wait till they come up and try to knife you into the guts. Me personally I would have been all for clearing them off the walls the hard way. That said, that is why we have ROE. To keep us (Marines) from doing the logical and combat effective thing and instead doing the politically relevant and effective thing. This usually results in Marines getting killed, but that thankfully that was not the case this time.
I hope you have helicopters firing up then. Because if you think that killing the guys on top of the wall is the "logical" thing to protect yourself you can be sure that you will be overrun by the giant mop of pissed of people outside.
Belt fed weapons and walls are a surprisingly useful crowd control device. You'd be amazed at how long a defensive position like an embassy could hold out. You seem to be under the odd impression that people scaling and potentially coming over the walls just want to give you a hug or something, and that defending the lives of everyone inside the walls is the least healthy of the two potential options. Again, this turned out for the best and it's something we should all be thankful for. But it could have very easily gone the other way.
And if you would have opened fire it would have gone the other way.
Despite the glorification and worship of it by certain parts of our population, it is just a piece of cloth and even if they took a dump on it and burned every single flag ever made in a fire this country will endure.
The issue isn't protecting the flag, the issue is being unable to predict what those guys are going to do once they've gotten over the walls.
You might be unable to predict what those guys are going to do on top of the walls.
We can however predict what will happen once you open fire on them.
They will die, buying enough time for the Egyptian army and police to actually do something.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
If the marines or any embassy marines start opening fire thats a whole new can of worms. Thats why their SOP is geared to defend within building if it is breached.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Also I seem to recall the building in Bhenghazi was a "Cultural outreach center" or some BS like that.
I ended up having a pretty loud argument with the old man over this one. He said we should have bombed Bhenghazi. Even if we had the ROE to do that, who the hell do you bomb in a decent sized city to punish them for a mob (who were possibly acting as cover for terrorist elements) attacking something? Pick five random buildings? This is the problem with any form of COIN operation, you have to make sure you're primarily killing bad guys, and it's really goddessdamn hard to find the bad guys.
I wouldn't consider this event to be indicative of an insurgency. We're not even occupiers and they didn't attack their own state.
Dealing with a mob like that one that attacked the consulate in Benghazi is however directly comparable to a COIN operation on many levels. Yes the over all structure of a terrorist/insurgent organization probably isn't there, and there is again some evidence to the mob being a cover for a terrorist attack from what a couple people in positions I can't talk about have told me (and also the news I believe...) but the basics of the situation for COIN purposes remain the same. Hostile elements within a community, hitting and immediately vanishing back into the population. So the question I ended the conversation with my father on was simply "Well who the hell do you HIT?" which is the same bottom line question we run into with COIN in Iraq and Afghanistan. Thankfully they're a little easier to hunt down there.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Jihadin wrote: If the marines or any embassy marines start opening fire thats a whole new can of worms. Thats why their SOP is geared to defend within building if it is breached.
That appears to be what they did in Yemen and Egypt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/13 18:02:24
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Marines jobs in the embassy are to protect the classified areas not defend from the walls.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
“And obviously [our] hearts are broken for the families but I wanted to encourage those folks at the State Dept. that they were making a difference,” Obama told volunteer leaders in Las Vegas, according to the pool report. “The sacrifices that our troops and our diplomats make are obviously very different from the challenges that we face here domestically but like them, you guys are Americans who sense that we can do better than we’re doing….I’m just really proud of you.”
http://twitchy.com/2012/09/13/sickening-obama-compares-campaign-volunteers-to-murdered-embassy-staff/
Source is Michelle Malkin's website so slightly biased, but still... kinda interesting.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
U.S. Marines defending the American embassy in Egypt were not permitted by the State Department to carry live ammunition, limiting their ability to respond to attacks like those this week on the U.S. consulate in Cairo.
Pretty sure I called that a few pages back.
Sorry... I missed that. That just doesn't seem right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihadin wrote: Marines can only defend certain areas within the embasy building. they cannot engage in combat operation outside the buildinig. If so they got the blessing of God himself to make it happen.
It make sense that they would have a strict rules of engagement...
But being unarmed? I really hope that report is wrong.
I don't know about unarmed but if so it's criminally stupid and I don't know that the State Department has the ability to impose on the Embassy detachment's CO like that.
It's been several years since anyone I've known personally was on an embassy detail, but when they were I was told the ROE was about as strict as it gets even inside the walls but if it gets ugly those Marines are about the last guys on Earth you want to feth with. Then again he and most of his fellow guards were combat veteran 0311s which I'm given to understand is not typical.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
I'd be careful with statements like that. There's free speech and all that but statements in regard to presidents or presidential candidates safety are not taken lightly at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/13 18:22:31
SOP is more along the RIO way. What the RIO has no control over is the protection of the classified areas. the CO makes the call on that. Still not thinking there were actual marines with the ambassador when he got killed. A two man secuirty team from a contract company yes (Formaly Blackwater since they won that contract last year) but actual marines no. Reason why its strict for the marines is if thy start shooting outside the walls of the embassy. That nation military can become involve in defense of the people.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
d-usa wrote: Frazzled is from Texas, he's just used to the Alamo way of doing things.
Is that Deguello in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Jihadin wrote: SOP is more along the RIO way. What the RIO has no control over is the protection of the classified areas. the CO makes the call on that. Still not thinking there were actual marines with the ambassador when he got killed. A two man secuirty team from a contract company yes (Formaly Blackwater since they won that contract last year) but actual marines no. Reason why its strict for the marines is if thy start shooting outside the walls of the embassy. That nation military can become involve in defense of the people.
Heard on the radio yesterday that one was definitely a marine from the MD area. (I live in MD.) He was on a temporary assignment to Libya. Sad all around. :(
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/13 18:46:10
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Jihadin wrote: SOP is more along the RIO way. What the RIO has no control over is the protection of the classified areas. the CO makes the call on that. Still not thinking there were actual marines with the ambassador when he got killed. A two man secuirty team from a contract company yes (Formaly Blackwater since they won that contract last year) but actual marines no. Reason why its strict for the marines is if thy start shooting outside the walls of the embassy. That nation military can become involve in defense of the people.
The Marine Corps Times (and we know how accurate the military Times are...) has it down as the Ambassador and three embassy staffers, Business Insider says the Corps is denying any personnel KIA or injured in Libya but they only link that article.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
I didn't particularly catch anything wrong with what the CA said (not including Tweets which I am not a party too).
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Ouch. AQ going to claim some victory. Both american security guard were former SEALS.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
Two of the four Americans killed in the assault on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi have been identified as former Navy SEALs.
A source confirmed to Fox News on Thursday that one of the victims was Tyrone Woods, a 41-year-old former SEAL.
Glen Doherty, a former Navy SEAL from Massachusetts, was one of the other victims in the deadly attack, according to a family friend.
The U.S. government earlier confirmed that U.S. Ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens and Sean Smith, a foreign service information management officer, died in the attack.
The Boston Globe first reported that Doherty was among the victims. His sister told the Globe that Doherty, 42, was working for a private company providing security at the time.
A former ski instructor in Utah, Doherty reportedly trained as a sniper and medical officer after joining the Navy SEALs. He served for seven years before leaving to work at the private security firm.
According to FOX5 in San Diego, Doherty lived in Encintas, Calif., after leaving the Navy. He worked at the CrossFIT/SEALFIT gym as well as security firms.
Based on an account of the Benghazi attack provided by senior administration officials, Doherty and Woods likely died while trying to take cover from gunfire in the annex near the main U.S. consulate building. At least three others were wounded in the attack.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
