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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/20129112108737726.html

An American staff member of the US consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi has died following fierce clashes at the compound, Libyan security sources said.

An armed mob attacked and set fire to the building in a protest against an amateur film deemed offensive to Islam's Prophet Muhammad, after similar protests in Egypt's capital.

"One American staff member has died and a number have been injured in the clashes," Abdel-Monem Al-Hurr, spokesman for Libya's Supreme Security Committee, said on Wednesday, adding that rocket-propelled grenades were fired at the building from a nearby farm.

"There are fierce clashes between the Libyan army and an armed militia outside the US consulate," he said. He also said roads had been closed off and security forces were surrounding the building.

Just hours earlier on Tuesday, thousands of Egyptian demonstrators apparently angry over the same film - a video produced by expatriate members of Egypt's Coptic community resident in the US - tore down the Stars and Stripes at the US embassy in Cairo and replaced it with a black Islamic flag.

The two incidents came on the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks in the US.

"Some have sought to justify this vicious behavior as a response to inflammatory material posted on the internet," said a statement by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who also confirmed the death of the consulate employee.

"The United States deplores any intentional effort to denigrate the religious beliefs of others," she said.

Suleiman El-Dressi, Al Jazeera's producer in Benghazi, said, "A group of people calling themselves the 'Islamic law supporters' heard the news that there will be an American movie insulting the Prophet."

"One they heard this, they came out of their military garrison and went into the streets calling upon people to gather and go ahead to attack the American consulate in Benghazi.

Cairo incident

In the day's first such incident, nearly 3,000 demonstrators, most of them Islamist supporters of the Salafist movement or football fans, gathered at the US embassy in Cairo in protest against the amateur film.

A dozen men scaled the embassy walls and one of them tore down the US flag, replacing it with a black one inscribed with the Muslim profession of faith: "There is no God but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God."

Demonstrators also scrawled the first part of the statement - "There is no God but God" - on the walls of the embassy compound.

Al Jazeera's Sherine Tadros, reporting from outside the US embassy in Cairo, said that the protesters want the film – portions of which can be found online - "out of circulation".



"Most of the people I've spoken to here, a lot of them from the ultra-conservative Salafi movement, say that they've seen the trailer to this film and that they're here outside the American embassy to stay until the film is pulled," she said.

"There's also a situation with the police, where there are thousands of riot police guarding the American embassy because there of the breach earlier on, when a lot of people stormed into the inner wall of the embassy and put a black flag up."

Egyptian police intervened without resorting to force and persuaded the trespassers to come down.

The crowd then largely dispersed, leaving just a few hundred protesters outside the US mission.

Embassy reaction

When asked whether the flag the protesters hoisted an al-Qaeda flag - on the anniversary of the killing of nearly 3,000 people in Washington, New York and Pennsylvania - a US state department official said she thought not.

"We had some people breach the wall, take the flag down and replace it. What I heard was that it was replaced with a plain black flag. But I may be not be correct in that," she said.

"In Cairo, we can confirm that Egyptian police have now removed the demonstrators who had entered our embassy grounds earlier today," said a senior State Department official, who added that he could not confirm any connection with the incident in Libya.

Egyptian activist Wael Ghoneim wrote on his Facebook page that "attacking the US embassy on September 11 and raising flags linked to al-Qaeda will not be understood by the American public as a protest over the film about the prophet.

"Instead, it will be received as a celebration of the crime that took place on September 11," he said.

Americans on Tuesday marked the 11th anniversary of the September 11, attacks in which nearly thousands were killed when hijacked airliners crashed into the Pentagon and New York's World Trade Center, and another was brought down in Pennsylvania.

'Sorry for the embassy'

Sam Bacile, an American citizen who produced, directed and wrote the two-hour film, said he had not anticipated such a furious reaction.

"I feel sorry for the embassy. I am mad," Bacile said.

Speaking from a telephone with a California number, he said the film was produced in English and he doesn't know who dubbed it in Arabic.

The full film has not been shown yet, he said, and he said he has declined distribution offers for now.

"My plan is to make a series of 200 hours" about the same subject, he said.

Morris Sadek, an Egyptian-born Copt in the US known for his anti-Islam views, told the AP news agency from Washington that he had promoted the video on his website and on certain TV stations, which he did not identify.



This is over an amatuer video. Yes, a video.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/13 09:31:11


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USA

Depicting Mohammed is enough to murder someone over there, apparently.

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Yeah, Libyas not a great place to be a foreign national right now, especially an American. Even Egypt, which has a legitimate reason to hate us, didn't go this far over the edge.

This scenario could play out very strangely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Melissia wrote:
Depicting Mohammed is enough to murder someone over there, apparently.


I don't condone the act in any way, but people have died and homes have been burned over here because the Lakers won playoff games. Libya is still a powderkeg with tens of thousands of people in roving militias without purpose looking to police their own home towns. It's mob rule until strong institutions can enforce the rule of law. That'll probably be a while.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 03:39:49


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Aaaand here comes the Mitt:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpolitics/romney-calls-embassy-statement-disgraceful#HTWF2

While I do think it's disgraceful how the current administration is handling this... I have a problem with Mitt doing this...

It's one thing to comment it after some time as passed... but during such events I think all parties should show solidarity (sp?).

Doesn't anyone think that this is ironic that all this is happening on 9/11?

Edit: To be fair, the WH did walkback the original embassy statements as it wasn't approved... so, there is that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 03:50:53


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 whembly wrote:
While I do think it's disgraceful how the current administration is handling this
Link. From something that isn't fox.

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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Melissia wrote:
 whembly wrote:
While I do think it's disgraceful how the current administration is handling this
Link. From something that isn't fox.

It's all over the news... but, it seems more of a clusterfeth of the embassy officials... try here:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/embassy-cairo-twitter/

What I find it weird is all the info/statements/WALKBACKS on twitter by that embassy account ...

When did twitter get so popular?

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The next article in the feed is hilarious. And probably NSFW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 whembly wrote:

It's all over the news... but, it seems more of a clusterfeth of the embassy officials... try here:


Not so much a clusterfeth as "Oh no, the embassy is being approached by an angry mob, how can we prevent them from doing something really bad!?!"

And, honestly, most of the objections are spurious nonsense which trade on the notion that "freedom of speech" is something that it isn't. I mean, the Egyptian government wasn't doing any oppressing, nor was the Libyan "one". We're quite clear in America about how we dislike the repression of speech by the state, but aren't so upset when private entities do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 05:48:18


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What is this? Another example of a conservative mistaking "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom of consequences from your Speech"?

I know Republicans think they could handle every single foreign intervention better than Obama. But how about you tone down the rhetoric and quit attacking the guy in charge while this event is going on.

I miss the good old days when attacking a sitting war time president and criticizing him on his foreign policy brought screams of treason from the right wing.
   
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 d-usa wrote:
I miss the good old days when attacking a sitting war time president and criticizing him on his foreign policy brought screams of treason from the right wing.


Ah yes, the halycon days of 2005. It was a different time, a more innocent era.

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 d-usa wrote:
What is this? Another example of a conservative mistaking "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom of consequences from your Speech"?

The problem here isn't some guy saying something obnoxious about a historical figure, it's that religious zealots just murdered the US Ambassador to Libya. When terrorists use murder as a tool to suppress free speech, the government should not be blaming the victim.

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 dogma wrote:
Not so much a clusterfeth as "Oh no, the embassy is being approached by an angry mob, how can we prevent them from doing something really bad!?!"

You let the embassy Marines standing around with you go weapons free. The embassy's sovereign US territory. You don't get to storm it, tear down the flag, and replace it with your own. You definitely do not get to kill an ambassador.

Someone remind me again why we haven't just glassed that whole region? We always need more off-site parking.
   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 AlexHolker wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
What is this? Another example of a conservative mistaking "Freedom of Speech" with "Freedom of consequences from your Speech"?

The problem here isn't some guy saying something obnoxious about a historical figure, it's that religious zealots just murdered the US Ambassador to Libya. When terrorists use murder as a tool to suppress free speech, the government should not be blaming the victim.


Which again has nothing to do with Freedom of Speech. The guy making the video has the freedom to make it. Anybody saying "I am sorry if it offends you" in order to try to calm the blowback from it does nothing to prevent that freedom of speech. Nobody is blaming the victim here.

The attacks are a consequence of having Freedom of Speech.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 11:05:23


 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 Melissia wrote:
The rumor of depicting Mohammed is enough to murder someone over there, apparently.


Corrected your typo.

I like what one civil rights type said in Egypt this morning on CNN though. hard right (yes she said hard right) elements are using this for their purposes, and the scary thing is the new rulership (of Egypt) has said or done nothing about it.

How's that Arab Spring turning out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Seaward wrote:
 dogma wrote:
Not so much a clusterfeth as "Oh no, the embassy is being approached by an angry mob, how can we prevent them from doing something really bad!?!"

You let the embassy Marines standing around with you go weapons free. The embassy's sovereign US territory. You don't get to storm it, tear down the flag, and replace it with your own. You definitely do not get to kill an ambassador.

Someone remind me again why we haven't just glassed that whole region? We always need more off-site parking.


Now the lefties on this board will sya you ar e bad you should feel bad.

I guess a more moderate response would be just everyone get the hell out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 11:12:00


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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 Seaward wrote:
You let the embassy Marines standing around with you go weapons free. The embassy's sovereign US territory. You don't get to storm it, tear down the flag, and replace it with your own. You definitely do not get to kill an ambassador.


Why didn't this happen, exactly? I could see refusing to authorize deadly force to protect property, but why wasn't it authorized to protect life?


 lord_blackfang wrote:
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Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness

 Ouze wrote:
 Seaward wrote:
You let the embassy Marines standing around with you go weapons free. The embassy's sovereign US territory. You don't get to storm it, tear down the flag, and replace it with your own. You definitely do not get to kill an ambassador.


Why didn't this happen, exactly? I could see refusing to authorize deadly force to protect property, but why wasn't it authorized to protect life?


From what I can remember of the articles that I read, there was an exchange of gunfire between the embassy guards and the militia, but this was a large armed militia, who I would assume overcame the guards through strength of numbers.

   
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I don't think there are marines there. We haven't establish full diplomatic presence there.

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 d-usa wrote:
The attacks are a consequence of having Freedom of Speech.

No more than rape is a consequence of not wearing burqa.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
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Cardiff, United Kingdom

I'm just going to paste what I wrote in my duplicate thread...

Where are all dem Liberals who embraced democratic values, western ways and apple pie at? Y'know, the majority of the Arab population that was totally leading the way?

Oh, wait, it was all imagined by the Western Media... at least the dictators before were secular dictators. Say hello to Islamic extremism!

It was utterly against our interests to provide passive support to those who overthrew Gadaffi and Mubarak. Syria's a more difficult case but I think a general plus is that the Ba'ath at least targeted religious political movements.

   
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Leerstetten, Germany

 AlexHolker wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
The attacks are a consequence of having Freedom of Speech.

No more than rape is a consequence of not wearing burqa.


How is Obama saying "sorry" (not that he did) going against Freedom of Speech?
   
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No more than rape is a consequence of not wearing burqa.


Rape is considered adultry and a female can be executed for it. Example be the one that happen in Afghanistan. Just letting you know

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The Great State of Texas

 Henners91 wrote:
I'm just going to paste what I wrote in my duplicate thread...

Where are all dem Liberals who embraced democratic values, western ways and apple pie at? Y'know, the majority of the Arab population that was totally leading the way?

Oh, wait, it was all imagined by the Western Media... at least the dictators before were secular dictators. Say hello to Islamic extremism!

It was utterly against our interests to provide passive support to those who overthrew Gadaffi and Mubarak. Syria's a more difficult case but I think a general plus is that the Ba'ath at least targeted religious political movements.


Its a fair argument.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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One of the staff killed (Looks like he worked IT?)----was a moderator on the SomethingAwful boards for any fellow goons.

Married with a kid--just senseless.

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Classified

Seaward wrote:
 dogma wrote:
Not so much a clusterfeth as "Oh no, the embassy is being approached by an angry mob, how can we prevent them from doing something really bad!?!"

You let the embassy Marines standing around with you go weapons free. The embassy's sovereign US territory. You don't get to storm it, tear down the flag, and replace it with your own. You definitely do not get to kill an ambassador.

Someone remind me again why we haven't just glassed that whole region? We always need more off-site parking.

This is dumb, reactionary warmongering, so yes, you should feel bad. The appropriate response is a breaking-off of diplomatic relations and a suspension of aid until such time that their government can demonstrate the ability and will to uphold international conventions governing the safety of diplomats. A state which can't guarantee the safety of diplomats is also in danger of losing its seat in the UN assembly, which will have significant economic and diplomatic repurcussions.
Henners91 wrote:I'm just going to paste what I wrote in my duplicate thread...

Where are all dem Liberals who embraced democratic values, western ways and apple pie at? Y'know, the majority of the Arab population that was totally leading the way?

Oh, wait, it was all imagined by the Western Media... at least the dictators before were secular dictators. Say hello to Islamic extremism!

It was utterly against our interests to provide passive support to those who overthrew Gadaffi and Mubarak. Syria's a more difficult case but I think a general plus is that the Ba'ath at least targeted religious political movements.

Sad to say, you're probably right. It's not, for different reasons, a fashionable view on either the left or the right nowadays, but stable democratic government didn't come into being in first world nations in isolation, but rather as the culmination of a sequence of processes which began with the Enlightenment, something the majority of the states in the Arab world have not yet passed through. (There are, I should stress, exceptions which are at least on their ways to establishing stable democracies of a kind: Jordan, Morocco and Bahrain, for instance.) Western commentators predicting peaceful transitions to stable democracies were indeed ludicrously optimistic, and did so in ignorance of the lessons of five centuries of European history.

One of the more interesting explanations for the failure of mature democracy to take root in the Middle East is the "resource curse". Most Middle-Eastern states are funded principally through state monopolies on resource extraction (in this case oil), meaning that they impose little or no personal or business taxation. And as any American knows, a people taxed will demand - and deserve - representation; it is essentially a precondition of the contract between government and governed in a democracy. Moreover, despite rising oil prices, these states have experienced remarkably low economic growth, and an even lower rise in living standards, because oil prices artificially push up exchange rates, making other export industries uncompetitive.

So yeah... we can haz Saddam back nao?



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 Frazzled wrote:
 Henners91 wrote:
I'm just going to paste what I wrote in my duplicate thread...

Where are all dem Liberals who embraced democratic values, western ways and apple pie at? Y'know, the majority of the Arab population that was totally leading the way?

Oh, wait, it was all imagined by the Western Media... at least the dictators before were secular dictators. Say hello to Islamic extremism!

It was utterly against our interests to provide passive support to those who overthrew Gadaffi and Mubarak. Syria's a more difficult case but I think a general plus is that the Ba'ath at least targeted religious political movements.


Its a fair argument.


No, it's a stupid argument because it's predicated on a lie by the 4th word; a clumsy incoherent one that only takes about 30 seconds on Google to debunk. Such is the state of politics today. Are we seriously going to try and pretend with a straight face that people like John McCain, Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney are "liberal democrats"?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Flinty wrote:
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The Great State of Texas

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Henners91 wrote:
I'm just going to paste what I wrote in my duplicate thread...

Where are all dem Liberals who embraced democratic values, western ways and apple pie at? Y'know, the majority of the Arab population that was totally leading the way?

Oh, wait, it was all imagined by the Western Media... at least the dictators before were secular dictators. Say hello to Islamic extremism!

It was utterly against our interests to provide passive support to those who overthrew Gadaffi and Mubarak. Syria's a more difficult case but I think a general plus is that the Ba'ath at least targeted religious political movements.


Its a fair argument.


No, it's a stupid argument because it's predicated on a lie by the 4th word; a clumsy incoherent one that only takes about 30 seconds on Google to debunk. Such is the state of politics today. Are we seriously going to try and pretend with a straight face that people like John McCain, Newt Gingrich, and Mitt Romney are "liberal democrats"?


You missed the point by a country mile. As the post above it noted, democratic governments and institutions did not effectively develop until the lat 19th century. For most of Europe it didn't occur until after WWII and/or the Cold War. We stick our noses in other people's business and we continually get attacked.

Best to leave them alone so they can attack each other.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Fort Campbell

I love that people bemoan the problem of gun violence in the US, and then read this little gem.

"The protesters, angry over a film that ridiculed Islam's Prophet Muhammad, were firing gunshots and rocket propelled grenades."

Yep, we got ourselves a real problem here in the ole US of A.


The last 10 years I was a believer that we could do good in that part of the world. That we could instill a sense of freedom in the people, get them to take a hold of their own destiny, yadda yadda.

Don't need the rest of this.
Reds8n

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/12 12:22:45


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 d-usa wrote:
How is Obama saying "sorry" (not that he did) going against Freedom of Speech?

Because this is not a subject where the President of the United States should be getting all mealy-mouthed. Imagine if Americans had responded to the production of Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter by murdering the Russian ambassador. It would be inexcusable for the leaders of either country to start their statement by casting blame on the film-makers.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
You missed the point by a country mile. As the post above it noted, democratic governments and institutions did not effectively develop until the lat 19th century. For most of Europe it didn't occur until after WWII and/or the Cold War. We stick our noses in other people's business and we continually get attacked.


Yes, that point came... later on in the post. The opening sentence posited that it was only liberal democrats that pushed for spreading democracy in Libya, a concept that is divorced from reality.

For what it's worth though, I agree with the latter thoughts. I thought then and think now that we have no national security interests in Libya.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
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The Great State of Texas

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
You missed the point by a country mile. As the post above it noted, democratic governments and institutions did not effectively develop until the lat 19th century. For most of Europe it didn't occur until after WWII and/or the Cold War. We stick our noses in other people's business and we continually get attacked.


Yes, that point came... later on in the post. The opening sentence posited that it was only liberal democrats that pushed for spreading democracy in Libya, a concept that is divorced from reality.

For what it's worth though, I agree with the latter thoughts. I thought then and think now that we have no national security interests in Libya.


We are in agreement.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Beast Coast

 Ouze wrote:


For what it's worth though, I agree with the latter thoughts. I thought then and think now that we have no national security interests in Libya.



That may be, but diplomatic relations and things like embassies and consulates have a much broader purpose than just national security.

   
 
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