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Does anyone else in here feel like Chaos is losing, well, chaos? Earlier on, there was a great deal of emphasis put on the fact that Daemons are just creatures of emotion. They're horrible, but they aren't pure evil. Slaanesh is pleasure, Khorne is rage, Tzeentch is hope and Nurgle is the human spirit.

Now, it feels like Chaos is less like 'Chaos' and more like Biblical devils. They're said to be fed by belief and worship, as opposed to emotion, and they're mostly just evil. In Lord of the Night, the Daemon talking about Curze is disgusted by the side of Curze that has morals. Just because it has morals. In the latest 40k rulebook, it talks about how Daemons would destroy all of humanity if it weren't for the Emperor stopping them. In the Horus Heresy series, the Traitor Primarchs don't turn to Chaos because the Emperor is a vindictive dictator who expects them to live and die for him; no, they turn because they're spoiled brats.

IDK, I think the new models bode very well for Chaos being what they were originally. They arn't just marines with spiky bits, they are actually twisted demented lunatics.

I hear what you're saying Lictor, I'm in the camp that firmly believes in the Radical Inquisitor...Chaos itself is not merely intrinsically evil but more of an extension of the person believing in it, ...using it as a weapon etc...

If there were more positive emotions in the 40k universe than the chaos gods would be more...mmm..neutral than say evil as they are now

on the same thread though the Eldar having gods only supports that theory...for instance Isha is the goddess of healing and such right?...if the Chaos gods are indeed..gods then the eldar gods must have been born of good intentions and emotions (at least the "Good" eldar gods") if that is untrue then the only logical conclusion would be that the Chaos gods are not gods but are indeed Xenos creatures that the Emperor would have led humanity to believe

but yes I hope they come back to the idea that Chaos is built upon the full spectrum of emotions not just negative emotions

Each Primarchs turned BECAUSE they where brats:
Black Legion = Daddy Emperor lied to us!
Word Bearers = Daddy Emperor said we couldn't worship him!
Thousand Sons = We want to read more, but Daddy said NO!
and so on....
Renegade fight because the Emperor was a dictator. As for the daemons, I don't know enough info on them.

Chaos Cajun wrote:Each Primarchs turned BECAUSE they where brats:
Black Legion = Daddy Emperor lied to us!
Word Bearers = Daddy Emperor said we couldn't worship him!
Thousand Sons = We want to read more, but Daddy said NO!
and so on....
Renegade fight because the Emperor was a dictator. As for the daemons, I don't know enough info on them.

Yeah, that is exactly my point. The Horus Heresy series turned the Primarchs into brats. Originally, it was more like this...

The Emperor took credit for Horus' successes, while giving Horus more and more responsibility without the power or prestige to match it. Then chaos came to Horus, and offered him the chance to follow his emotions. He could give up restraint, ignore all the Emperor's rules and regulations, and do what he wanted. That's pretty tempting to anyone, especially someone like Horus.

Lorgar wanted to worship something, hell anything. The concept of humanity being alone in an uncaring universe terrified him. At first he worshiped the Emperor, but it became apparent that the Emperor was no god. Chaos on the other hand...

Perturabo was neglected by his Father. He was never close to the Emperor and he never believed in the Great Crusade; the only reason he carried it out was because he didn't know what else to do. The other Legions abused his frequently, relegating the Iron Warriors to the worst aspects of siege warfare. Chaos appealed to him the same way it did to Horus; he could do whatever he wanted, damn the consequences.

etc., etc...

The point being, them turning traitor seemed almost believable.

Aside the fact that they brats, I don't think they think their evil. All though the Word Bearers seem evil, but they think they are holy priests of chaos and the Dark Gods are good to those that follow them. Cruze and Honsou (Storm of Iron) use the gods because they are there and they help me win.

I think only Horus is a brat. All the other primarchs had, relativly, decent reasons for joining chaos.

Lorgar really got the shaft. He was really devoted to dad, but instead of quietly saying "hey, the whole worship thing isn't really my style. Please don't do that anymore" the Emperor had the Ultramarines destroy and entire planet's infrastructure and then humiliated the entire Word Bearers Legion in front of the Ultramarines(even before the Heresy, the UMs were big dicks)

Angron just has a flat character. but hey, how much do you really expect from a lobotomised lunatic? He just kinda went with the path that let him kill stuff.

Mortarian was already on the path to Nurgle. His prior obsession and practices pigonholed him into falling where he did.

Magnus also got shafted. He was perfectly loyal. he was just trying to warn the Emperor of Horus's treachery. but the Emperor gets mad and tells Horus, the very guy you were just warned is a traitor, to have Russ bring Magnus to Terra. And thus, Horus uses this opprotunity to tell Russ that the Emperor needs him to destroy the Thousand Sons. Either way, both Legions are taken out of the way. The Thousand Sons will join him or be destroyed and the Space Wolves will be weakened from the fighting.

Konrad overthrew an oppressive overlord on his planet and he saw the same injustice in the Imperium. Of course he also saw what his betrayal accomplished and so allowed the Imperial Assassin to kill him.

Alpharius/Omegon is a mystery, as always. They may even be loyal, trying to destroy chaos from the inside.

Daemons are called Daemons for a reason. While they do represent the emotions of mankind, they are a dark, twisted mirror of those emotions. Anger, a perfectly natural human emotion, is pushed to rage and violence. Pleasure and love are twisted and morphed into debauchery and lust. Hope and aspiration are pushed to scheming and treachery. And the human spirit is broken to give way to pestilence and death. They are the dark side of mankind made manifest. These aren't beings who are just overly filled with one solitary emotion. They are an embodiment of the darkest side of the human psyche. They feed off the dark side of humanity. So yes, they are fed by emotion. Whenever a man slaps his wife, Khorne is sated. Whenever a woman is violated, a Daemonette is born. Whenever someone usurps another through scheming, Tzeentch cackles in delight. And whenever a plague causes the death of hundreds, Nurgle's forces are bolstered.

They are creatures of sinister and demented morals. Creatures who do things that are unforgivably cruel and malicious. They sew despair and violence and want nothing more than the corruption of all things. And they commit these acts merely for the sake of doing them. They are, for all intents and purposes, evil.

 Darth Bob wrote:
Daemons are called Daemons for a reason. While they do represent the emotions of mankind, they are a dark, twisted mirror of those emotions. Anger, a perfectly natural human emotion, is pushed to rage and violence. Pleasure and love are twisted and morphed into debauchery and lust. Hope and aspiration are pushed to scheming and treachery. And the human spirit is broken to give way to pestilence and death. They are the dark side of mankind made manifest. These aren't beings who are just overly filled with one solitary emotion. They are an embodiment of the darkest side of the human psyche. They feed off the dark side of humanity. So yes, they are fed by emotion. Whenever a man slaps his wife, Khorne is sated. Whenever a woman is violated, a Daemonette is born. Whenever someone usurps another through scheming, Tzeentch cackles in delight. And whenever a plague causes the death of hundreds, Nurgle's forces are bolstered.

They are creatures of sinister and demented morals. Creatures who do things that are unforgivably cruel and malicious. They sew despair and violence and want nothing more than the corruption of all things. And they commit these acts merely for the sake of doing them. They are, for all intents and purposes, evil.

Could not have said it better myself. Chaos Daemons & mortal followers are just evil. No more no less

 Darth Bob wrote:
Daemons are called Daemons for a reason. While they do represent the emotions of mankind, they are a dark, twisted mirror of those emotions. Anger, a perfectly natural human emotion, is pushed to rage and violence. Pleasure and love are twisted and morphed into debauchery and lust. Hope and aspiration are pushed to scheming and treachery. And the human spirit is broken to give way to pestilence and death. They are the dark side of mankind made manifest. These aren't beings who are just overly filled with one solitary emotion. They are an embodiment of the darkest side of the human psyche. They feed off the dark side of humanity. So yes, they are fed by emotion. Whenever a man slaps his wife, Khorne is sated. Whenever a woman is violated, a Daemonette is born. Whenever someone usurps another through scheming, Tzeentch cackles in delight. And whenever a plague causes the death of hundreds, Nurgle's forces are bolstered.

They are creatures of sinister and demented morals. Creatures who do things that are unforgivably cruel and malicious. They sew despair and violence and want nothing more than the corruption of all things. And they commit these acts merely for the sake of doing them. They are, for all intents and purposes, evil.

First and foremost, please change your avatar. It's extremely annoying.

Now onto the rest of what you said. Yeah, I agree that Chaos is bad and evil. But it older books it had depth and it wasn't 100% evil. More like 96% evil. Without Tzeentch, we wouldn't have hope. Without Nurgle, we wouldn't value life. Without Khorne, evil would go unpunished. Without Slaanesh, there would be no pleasure.

Now, it's more like "the chaos gawds are pure evil but dont worry loken the awesome space marine will come back to life and kill them and itll be like pwnzorz."

 LoneLictor wrote:

First and foremost, please change your avatar. It's extremely annoying.

I appreciate the "please" but I think I'll say no for now. Though a change may be in order since I've had this one for so long, so stay tuned.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Now onto the rest of what you said. Yeah, I agree that Chaos is bad and evil. But it older books it had depth and it wasn't 100% evil. More like 96% evil. Without Tzeentch, we wouldn't have hope. Without Nurgle, we wouldn't value life. Without Khorne, evil would go unpunished. Without Slaanesh, there would be no pleasure.

I don't recall any fluff ever saying that emotion cannot exist without the Chaos Gods. Pleasure existed long before Slaanesh came into being. After all, Slaanesh's birth is fairly recent in terms of the history of the universe. Did no living being feel pleasure for the thousands of years before Slaanesh showed up? The Chaos Gods and their daemonic minions are manifestations of the emotions that we feel. They are fueled and created by our emotions, they do not make us feel them. The Chaos Gods could cease to exist and we would be able to feel and experience the emotions we feel every day without skipping a beat. The Chaos Gods aren't really Gods at all. They're just beings of impossibly immense power that feed on the emotions of living things throughout the Galaxy (universe?). For all intents and purposes, they're otherworldly parasites. We can exist just fine without them. There really aren't any redeeming qualities to the Chaos Gods. To me, there never really has been. They're beings made up of everything bad in this god-forsaken galaxy. Without them, humanity would be quite well off. Without us, the Galaxy would fall to the will of extreme, spontaneous emotion and concepts without rhyme or reason. In other words: Chaos.

The Chaos Gods represent hope, value of life, retribution, and pleasure. But to a very extreme level. So extreme, that the very things they represent have become corrupted and vile versions of themselves. Making the Chaos Gods irrevocably evil. We feel emotions and do things for logical reasons. Cause and effect causes us to act and feel the way they do. But there's no rhyme or reason that makes the forces of Chaos feel and act the way they do. They just act on base emotion and concepts for no reason other that because that's just what they do. They're chaotic nature causes them to commit impossible acts of pure evil. I don't understand how much clearer it could be. I also think the concept of the Chaos Gods being at all good/neutral (even if it's only 4%) totally obtuse and contradictory to everything that the Chaos Gods are. In my opinion, it doesn't add depth to their character, it adds contradiction.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Now, it's more like "the chaos gawds are pure evil but dont worry loken the awesome space marine will come back to life and kill them and itll be like pwnzorz."

...What does the Chaos Gods being pure evil have anything to do with Loken?

That's weird. I always imagined chaos (and CSM) as having a "bushido" code, of sorts.

Like, of course, they worship deamons and great avatars that are literally manifestations of human emotion.But that isn't necessarily bad or good. That doesn't go hand in hand with evil.

But I agree. More and more recently, that line is getting crossed, where chaos stops making unpredictable, often noble moves, and just takes on a general attitude of 'evil'.... Killing people for no reason whatsoever besides the fact that they feel like it, or doing unnecessarily underhanded things simply to win. It's bad for fluff, and for me, it's bad for chaos as a whole. I think chaos's unpredictable and temperamental nature attracted me to them in the first place.

They were never really "evil" so much as just different. I wasn't looking for something evil. If I wanted evil, I could have played necrons or DE.

I suppose it was a natural shift though. How else could you explain why Malleus and Hereticus hate them so much? How else could you explain why they were such a huge threat to the galaxy? Make them more evil, so the imperium has a clear enemy, and so we turn them into boring, heartless monsters, rather than once-noble warriors of the stars, sworn by blood to protect their glorious emperor. I think that's what should be focused on in this new codex. How amazing they were at the time of the heresy, and the types of things they were using. GW has a clean slate here. They can bring back the roots of chaos, seeped in mystery and novelty, or they can go back to cult troops and vanilla terminators, with daemonic gimicks.

The Primarchs have always been spoilt, they were the Sons of the Emperor and they were Lords and Masters, barring Angron, in their own right.

Chaos whispered in the ears of each and weeded out the more susceptible.

The problem I see is the Horus Heresy series. The specific conversations and personalities of the Primarchs was not known in the original Realms of Chaos era, just that Horus rebelled and the Emperor cast down. Over time, this had been slightly fleshed out with a few articles and the Index Astartes series, but it still remained fairly mysterious. With the series I think we are learning too much.

With the Daemons I would say that they are still their Realm of Chaos incarnation but as Games Workshop has moved forward and begun to target the younger generation they have had to move away from this so as to not scare mothers off of opening their purses.

Chaos is not necessarily evil, it's the follower and the use of Chaos that makes it evil. The Imperium would have you believe otherwise of course. But I refer you to the Laer and the Nurthene. Both are Chaos Worshiping races, one Slaanesh and the other the Pantheon, both seemed to be doing ok until the Imperium came along. Nurth seemed to be rather civilised if the conversation Grammaticus had are anything to go by.

its went from emotion is the path to the darkside in the old SM codex the chapters supressed emotion using the chaplains to remind the marines of their duty. Chaos is just that chaos its not organised into sects all emotions feed the Gods but certain ones such as rage or lust feed a specific god in the chaos dex it doesnt mention belief being neccesery for the Gods and that the thoughts actions and emotions of mortals that grant the gods more power

Op's post went over most people's heads, but I expect no less from a board where a majority of the posters see the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" as the consummate good guys.

I don't think there ever was this much cerebral interpretation of emotions and manifestations in the old Chaos Days.

They were the "other" guys that the loyalists fought. They were a line of miniatures sculpted by people with too many 1980s Heavy Metal posters in their office (hell, they even named their painters the 'Eavy Metal Team!!).

That's it by and large. Chaos (or 40K in general) has never been more "thought through" and carefully conceptualized as it is today.

 Zweischneid wrote:
(hell, they even named their painters the 'Eavy Metal Team!!).

Legio Metalica spring to mind.

The big difference between the really old stuff and the newer stuff is that during the '80s they had no idea just how popular the 40k setting, with all the stuff it essentially stole & adapted from other settings/stories, would be. So it was a hodge-podge of elements with a comedic twist. By 2000 they really seemed to have grasped they were onto something here and that is when you see the humour of 40k start to disappear into the sunset (I loved the 3rd Ed. Guard Codex's little story about Nork Deddog & Colonel Greiss). Elements of comedy remain (of course, as it has to be mentioned, the Orks) but it's a lot, lot more serious now. Which I didn't mind so much but I do wonder what they're going to do next.

Zweischneid wrote:I don't think there ever was this much cerebral interpretation of emotions and manifestations in the old Chaos Days.

They were the "other" guys that the loyalists fought. They were a line of miniatures sculpted by people with too many 1980s Heavy Metal posters in their office (hell, they even named their painters the 'Eavy Metal Team!!).

That's it by and large. Chaos (or 40K in general) has never been more "thought through" and carefully conceptualized as it is today.

You have clearly never read the Realms of Chaos books.

Oakenshield wrote:Op's post went over most people's heads, but I expect no less from a board where a majority of the posters see the "cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" as the consummate good guys.

Ah well.

@Darth Bob
I read the first part of your post and put you on my ignore list, for being on of those users with gif avatars/sigs. So, I guess I didn't really read the rest of your post.

I never got the impression of any form of "honor" or honor code from Chaos Samus. In their own minds? Yes perhaps but only as it applied to generally being an fethhead by any one else's standards.

"These people are weak! Kill them all that their lives may be of value to Khorne!"

To the diseased mind any act can be noble and justified.

As to the hatred for Chaos, even if Chaos forces weren't Evil(tm) they're traitors and believers of another religion in a fanatical theocratic state. That's more then enough reason for members of an organization whose sole purpose is defending the State and has full knowledge (or more likely selectively edited knowledge, or they'd know the Big E didn't want to worshiped in the first place) to want to eradicate them. For the Space Marines it's even MORE personal. Treason is a very unique offense to members of a military force, the more elite the force, the stronger the emotions inspired by the treason. When your force is betrayed by even a single individual it's a degradation of honor and an insult to every single loyal member. Now if a whole half of your force (if not more) goes traitor on you... then brings war upon you and that which you defend... that's the type of thing that can enkindle lasting generational dishonor and the kind of vengeance lust that will carry on for generations till that foe has been utterly destroyed.
\

Get an adblock and just block his avatar if it's such a big deal to you

I seem to remember Khorne having martial pride, that is he would prefer his followers slaughter worthy warriors rather than defenseless masses, that seems to have changed though.

As for the Primarchs, Magnus was loyal till the end, Alpharius may still be, Angron was just perma-mad. Horus was a douche but then so were plenty of the Loyal Primarchs. Lion is borderline heretic/traitor, Russ is just a drunken fool. Almost none of them had the quality of humility. And the UM hatred really is unfounded. The Emperor chastised the Word Bearers in front of them, they didn't do anything but look on. What? You expect the UM to say 'hey Mr Emperor, we don't like you being so mean'. Robute also was the first to suggest splitting the legions even though it was his legion that would be affected the most by it.

 LoneLictor wrote:


You have clearly never read the Realms of Chaos books.

Oh I did. There were, among others, random mutations charts that would bestow your Chaos Champions with things like "the 'gift' of uncontrollable flatulence". And side to side with that were a deluge of Monty Python references, as well as bits and pieces ripped straight from Moorcock or the odd D&D Monster Manual. It was a fun read.

It's still a good book. But a philosophical treaty on the nature of human corruption it is not.

Chaos is intrinsically evil. It twists any "positive" emotion. Nurgle "loves" you by mutating you into a monstrosity or killing billions in plague. Slaanesh rewards pleasure by having you delve into more and more depraved acts. Khorne turns you into a bloodthirsty maniac. Tzeentch manipulates you for his own selfish ends.

Chaos has never done any good for anyone. It is responsible for an enormous level of atrocities throughout the galaxy. There's not even a "greater good" argument like you get with the Imperium/Eldar.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I never got the impression of any form of "honor" or honor code from Chaos Samus. In their own minds? Yes perhaps but only as it applied to generally being an fethhead by any one else's standards.

"These people are weak! Kill them all that their lives may be of value to Khorne!"

To the diseased mind any act can be noble and justified.

As to the hatred for Chaos, even if Chaos forces weren't Evil(tm) they're traitors and believers of another religion in a fanatical theocratic state. That's more then enough reason for members of an organization whose sole purpose is defending the State and has full knowledge (or more likely selectively edited knowledge, or they'd know the Big E didn't want to worshiped in the first place) to want to eradicate them. For the Space Marines it's even MORE personal. Treason is a very unique offense to members of a military force, the more elite the force, the stronger the emotions inspired by the treason. When your force is betrayed by even a single individual it's a degradation of honor and an insult to every single loyal member. Now if a whole half of your force (if not more) goes traitor on you... then brings war upon you and that which you defend... that's the type of thing that can enkindle lasting generational dishonor and the kind of vengeance lust that will carry on for generations till that foe has been utterly destroyed.
\

Perhaps you're right. I don't know though. There's always little moments that surprise me with chaos. Someone taking pity just for the sake of it. Someone conceding defeat to remain honorable. Someone making a decision based on what the men think... although Space Marines in general do that. It's not uncommon for a captain to ask the opinion a sergeant or a lower Marine and follow through with it.

I don't think chaos has lost chaos in the storyline. I think they still maintain that the chaos gods feed on the emotions of mankind. Unfortunately for mankind, the only emotions mankind seems to be feeling are bad ones- exactly what chaos wants.

SPOILER ALERT----
Its been a while since I read the horus heresy books. I always looked at Horus as becoming lonely when the emperor left to run things on Terra and then resentful because of all the bureaucrats he had to deal with "running" a galaxy as opposed to conquering one. This resent/loneliness and eventuall y pride was the chink in the armor that chaos exploited. The emperor was almost seen, in his eyes, as abandoning them. A betrayal of their brotherhood of warrior.

Especially pride. The opening book tells of a space marine telling the story of how horus killed the "emperor".

When Horus is shown the future and he can't find any statutes of himself and his glorious achievements he concludes that "They're right (chaos), the emperor is taking credit for my work - not in reality. I did a bad thing and it greatly overshadows all my former achievements.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:


Perhaps you're right. I don't know though. There's always little moments that surprise me with chaos. Someone taking pity just for the sake of it. Someone conceding defeat to remain honorable. Someone making a decision based on what the men think... although Space Marines in general do that. It's not uncommon for a captain to ask the opinion a sergeant or a lower Marine and follow through with it.

The mortal followers of Chaos are subject to the same conflict of interest as any normal mortal man or woman would be. Therefore, it's completely plausible for the mortal followers of the Dark Gods to display acts of humanity or "good". They still have reason and mortal logic and are therefore capable of acting out of reason and morality. This is something that the actual Daemons do not possess. Daemons impulsively act on emotion, and are incapable of doing otherwise. Bloodletters impulsively kill things. Daemonettes impulsively do the nasty with mortals. Pink Horrors impulsively change and mutate their surroundings. Plaguebearers impulsively infect and despoil. It is this complete and utter lack of self control that makes them so evil. A human is capable of reason and is able to choose to commit an act of evil, but, if they so choose, they're also able to choose to be a source of good. Daemons don't have a choice. They just do evil things because they are evil by nature. This is why we see that, as people become more corrupted and mutated by the warp, their capability for reason and moral action is diminished. They start to lose the control that they once had. They become slaves to their emotions and to the Dark Gods that they represent. In other words, mortal followers of Chaos are not inherently evil. The force they worship is. Continued worship and association with the Ruinous Powers can cause the powers of the warp to corrupt them, body and soul: making them as evil as the force they worship.

Chaos Gods: Evil
Daemons: Evil
Mortal Worshipers of Chaos: On the track to becoming evil, but not completely evil just yet.

Darth Bob speaks the truth!

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
(hell, they even named their painters the 'Eavy Metal Team!!).

Legio Metalica spring to mind.

There is also a Planet named Metallica. its about halfway between Maccragge and Terra.

To OP.. sad you blocked Darth Blob, he's probably the one who seems to best understand the concept of Demons and the Chaos Gods.

An easier way to justify the 4 emotions that drive the 4 Gods is that "heavier" emotions have a stronger "gravitational affinity" to one another, responsible for shaping the Gods to what they have always been- not to what they seem to be becoming.

For example - Lust, though fleeting, may not be as powerful consummate Love, but is far, far more prevalent - especially in the Eldar at the height of their power.

Rage blows away all other constructive forms of anger.

Hope inevitably leads to the will to change. Those who want power, also want the most change. Power corrupts, therefore hope eventually corrupts the hopeful.

Nurgle is the god of despair, not "the human spirit." Exactly the reason why Nurgle and Tzeentch are mortal rivals - they contradict each other. You cannot hope without first wallowing in a form of despair, you cannot truly despair without tarnishing hope. Furthermore, you cannot love if you hate, but you certainly can lustfully hate someone - perhaps why Khorne may despise Slaanesh, but their rivalry is not as well known.

Also: By referencing the followers of Chaos as representative to actual Chaos Gods is extremely misleading. Their followers aren't even close to the "perfect" forms of Chaos, they are on the twisting uncertain path to immortality that many fail to ever come close to achieving 100% chaos rating. Even Demon Princes are lucky if they can achieve a 96% Chaos rating, because even they aren't the pure evil Gods that they are ruled by!

 DemetriDominov wrote:
To OP.. sad you blocked Darth Blob...

You callin' me fat?

 Zweischneid wrote:
I don't think there ever was this much cerebral interpretation of emotions and manifestations in the old Chaos Days.

They were the "other" guys that the loyalists fought. They were a line of miniatures sculpted by people with too many 1980s Heavy Metal posters in their office (hell, they even named their painters the 'Eavy Metal Team!!).

That's it by and large. Chaos (or 40K in general) has never been more "thought through" and carefully conceptualized as it is today.

Spoiler:

I think that's it more or less it.
And I read the realm of chaos books. Hell, I was playing a chaos warband following those rules...

At first, Chaos was the quintessential bad guys. You took something good, chaos was the bad side of that coin. Simple and easy. Then someone at GW took X, and ended up with the marketing'ed version of those bad guys (essentially SM with laser guitars and scythes). That went 10 years. The last CSM box is all I dislike about chaos. They are just SM with vague pikes and no personnality. And that is why I like the DV box a lot. Chosens really looks like, well.... chosens. They look like they have been wageing war for thousands of years for a very corrupting source, and not like "OMG my friend is playing UM, I cannot play a regular SM army, let's pick CSM".

Chaos has been lost. But we have hope (Hail Tzeentch!) that Chaos has been discivered again.

(all that from someone with a GK as avatar - everything's normal).