Forfeiting on Turn 1: Justified or bad sportsmanship?

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**Sigvatr**

Aun Tier wrote:
Keep in mind that the 'donkey-cave' as you put him is probably about to read your post. There's no need for insults like that. On top of that, he has already stated that he clearly asked the Ork player if he wanted to play a 2055pt game against his Draigowing army. The Ork player accepted without complaint, and so you cant say that he sprung this list on him. It's simply not what happened.

Did not refer to him as a person, but his behavior / choice of army list.

Thanks for the latter point though, missed it. If the Ork really decided to play a Lamerwing with that list...geeez, guys.

**Grey Templar**

You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

**DeffDred**

Grey Templar wrote:
You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

I like your sig...

**liam0404**

Another shameless self-plug here, but its relevant. In one of my blogs I was absolutely smoked by a podding Vulkan list. Sometimes you just have to roll with it and laugh it off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEY4S6a8TsQ&feature=player_embedded

My opponent seized the initiative on me, and over the first 2 turns proceeded to destroy about 1400 points of my 2000 point army. It was HORRIFIC. But also funny - every player receives one of these beatdowns on occasion.

**Grey Templar**

DeffDred wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

I like your sig...

Yeah, so?

I know this is purely my word and you can't verify it, but I get quite a few compliments on how nice of an opponent I am.

My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

**DeffDred**

Grey Templar wrote:
DeffDred wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

I like your sig...

Yeah, so?

I know this is purely my word and you can't verify it, but I get quite a few compliments on how nice of an opponent I am.

My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

Lol I'm just teasing you.

**Grey Templar**

I know

**Invisible Jesus**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Don't know if this goes here or not since I'm asking a few questions, but since I'm describing a battle I guess it does?

So today was the first game I played with my Draigowing since the 1.1 nerf . The guy I played against used Orks and was very nice, agreeing to play a game of 2055 to accommodate my wishlist. My list consisted of:

Draigo - 275

Libby Master Level 3 - 200 ( chose to take all divination powers for him, ended up with Prescience, Forewarning, and Perfect Timing)

2 units of 10 paladins, with 4 psycannons (all master crafted), brotherhood banner, psybolt ammo, 1 warding stave, 2 hammers, apothecary, and 6 halberds) - 790 x 2 = 1580

I do not know the point values of his list, but he had 1 units of 30 boyz, 1 unit of 30 hardboyz, 20 or so stormboyz (I forget the exact count), 2 warbosses with powerclaws, one warboss was with one of the boyz unit, the other was in a Trukk(?) with 8 nobz, finally he had 5 deffkoptas that were in reserve and a what may have been a battle wagon (dont know enough about orks to tell). He may have had some more units in reserve, but I forget (and because he quit at the end of turn 1, it doesn't really matter.)

We got mission 4 and hammer and anvil formation. I got to deploy and go first. We both put our units right up to our deployment line. I put Draigo in one unit and the libby in another, then line up my paladins in a zig zag line across my deployment zone (with draigo in front obviously. My opponent places one unit of boys facing each of my paladins units, with stormboyz behind the unit facing my libby paladins and the warboss trukk behing the unit facing draigos. I use Draigo's Grand Strategy and scout ahead. He fails to seize.

My first turn I use libbys Prescience on Draigo's unit. With it I manage to kill all but 9 boyz in one unit (pretty much every shot went through). They fail their leadership and start to retreats. The other unit with my Libby does almost as good, killing 13 boys in the other unit. That ends my turn since I scouted and I couldn't assault.

His turn he has his battle wagon charge up to my Draigon unit, and uses it as a shield blocking the warboss trukk from my line of sight. He then has his stormboyz use their jump packs and move in of his regular boyz. He it at most 5 inches from my paladins. He forgoes shooting (why?) and declares an assault with his stormboyz. I overwatch and managed to kill two. He rolls for his assault...

And rolls a snake eyes.

He sighs, says I win and begins to pack up. I ask him to reconsider and offer to let him re roll the assault dice. He does so, and gets a three. He says I win again and continues to pack up despite my best efforts to ask him to continue. He says that since he can't tarpit me with his stormboyz there it nothing he can do to keep me from tabling him, so he might as well quit.

So the battle was over before it really began, and I have to ask, was what he did fair, to me or to himself? I don't know much about Orks, but was there anything he could have done to win at that point. I feel he should have continued playing against me, at least from the sake of sportsmanship, but was there really any hope for him to win at all? I'd like to hear from anyone whose been in a similar situation whose opponents quick so early, and from ork players as well...

I have conceded on turn 1, but only because I could tell the other guy was a TFG WAAC...I think this is fully justified, since the idea is to enjoy the game despite how everyone loves to win...Losing can be almost as equally as fun as winning as long as you are playing with someone who is friendly and has a good sense of humour....I got my fething ass handed to me constantly in 2nd edition but still kept coming back, because the people I played I was good buds with.

i think with the above case, the guy was either lacking self-confidence or knew GK's and his own list so well that he knew there was absolutely no chance he could win and would learn nothing from the game and wouldn't enjoy it. Nothing wrong with that.
However, if he just ragequit then that's totally different: He should man up a bit and realise you learn from losing games, not winning them. Lose with grace and a sense of humour and learn from it.

**Makumba**

However, if he just ragequit then that's totally different: He should man up a bit and realise you learn from losing games, not winning them. Lose with grace and a sense of humour and learn from it.

dude again , what maning up , what kind of a learning . orc player is gaming against a stranger , so his interest in removing dead guys for 2-3 turns without doing nothing is already low . He tries to do something characterable and charges stormboyz in to the paladins , this was his only chance to roll some dice[unless all paladins were halabard armed] , this fails . What would happen after this would be paladins shoting stuff and charging his boyz and blowing up the trukk LoS blocking the nobz . And on the orc player turn [assuming he would get the choppers] he would have 5 bad skimers with low BS and a unit of nobs that die if they try to charge the paladins or shot and do nothing . This is not even a question of fun vs not fun , the game was done .

Another shameless self-plug here, but its relevant. In one of my blogs I was absolutely smoked by a podding Vulkan list. Sometimes you just have to roll with it and laugh it off.

yes , but you want a clip for tube and views for your chanel . Which takes priority over ass whooping . the orc player had non of this . He played against an army he couldnt beat , got owned turn 1 , could do nothing to stop the owning and when I say stop , I dont mean try to win , I mean him being unable to do anything . how much dmg would he do to pre FAQ paladins with LoS! wound allocation , draigo sponging wounds etc with 5 choppers and some shotas ?

Also, all the comments about "learning more" etc. Are all valid.

what did the orc dude learn from the game ? that he has thrown money out of the window , because his army sucks ? or that some part of the community thinks it is ok for him to stand for 10-15 min removing enemy models when he himself , cant do a thing ?

What can I learn from losing early[though that is not easy with IG] , am losing not making the cut to the top tables , I could play to draw , but I still wont make the cut . But If I drop out now I can give the dude that kicked me out of the top tables[probably 2 games lost out of 3 first played] bad small points score and rise the chance that some of my bros will get better scores at the same time ? wup ti du , see me drop out at the speed of light. Specialy if I can play in a side event. .

**eldartau1987**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Sounds like a bit of a wuss, but ok...

That guy, in saving himself some time, also denied himself the opportunity to learn how the Grey Knights army works. If you think you're going to lose a game, then you already have.

This, a thousand times!

**Kaldor**

Makumba wrote:
what did the orc dude learn from the game ? that he has thrown money out of the window , because his army sucks ? or that some part of the community thinks it is ok for him to stand for 10-15 min removing enemy models when he himself , cant do a thing ?

What he could have learned is that two enemy units can only kill two of his units per turn. And that feeding his units to Paladins by attempting to assault them is a bad idea, and should be avoided.

He should have learned that, even in a best case scenario, those Paladins simply aren't going to kill enough units to prevent the Orks from contesting/claiming every objective and winning the game.

**Mannahnin**

Part of the point of playing a horde army is being able to absorb enormous casualties and still win the game.

If you're playing an army full of 6pt troops, you SHOULD be expecting to take piles of them off the table every turn. If you're NOT taking them off the table in substantial numbers every turn, you are probably handing out an asswhupping.

**Che-Vito**

< Taken by the void dragon. >

**Fafnir**

Grey Templar wrote:

My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

Your sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

**Peregrine**

Che-Vito wrote:
This is quite possibly some of the worst sportsmanship I've read in quite awhile.
"I can drop out, screw over my opponent, and skew the tourney for some of my friends."

Besides that, it's a sign of a broken tournament system. If a player can drop and their opponent gets fewer points than if they actually win the game something is seriously wrong. Either the remaining player should have full points, or they should remove the dropping player's models from the table and play out the rest of the game, giving the remaining player all the points they are able to score (with all of the opponent's units counting as destroyed if it matters).

And of course if "help my friends" means "drop and give my opponent a zero for sportsmanship", well, you're TFG.

**felixander**

Grey Templar wrote:
My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

I've always hated your sig. Just because someone's played an army for a long time doesn't justify abusing it when it's overpowered. (Not saying you do, I have absolutely no idea what kind of lists you run). Saying "Oh well my army used to suck so now I get to clear out everyone else" is one of the problems in this game. I'm sure you're a perfectly fine person and all, but man there's a ton of people out there who'd groan as soon as they find out they're playing ANOTHER Grey Knights army

**Spaz431**

I am an ork and SOB player, I played a grey knights back in 5th, just prior to the release. My opponent asked me to play a high points game, 2200. I utilized a 14 man team of lootas. They brought down two dreadK's & a stormraven. One of the Nobs leading a 20+ mob power klawed a land raider. I didn't give up. My Boyz got shot to hell, but I didn't back down to so formidable an enemy, and that was before power weapons got nerfed. So bad sportsman on how he handled it, concede graciously.

**Grey Templar**

felixander wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

I've always hated your sig. Just because someone's played an army for a long time doesn't justify abusing it when it's overpowered. (Not saying you do, I have absolutely no idea what kind of lists you run). Saying "Oh well my army used to suck so now I get to clear out everyone else" is one of the problems in this game. I'm sure you're a perfectly fine person and all, but man there's a ton of people out there who'd groan as soon as they find out they're playing ANOTHER Grey Knights army

I groan whenever I find I'm playing another person whining about playing against GKs

Suck it up, I like my army. Invested time and money buying and painting it, to a quite decent standard if I do say so myself. You're going to play against me and you're going to like it. You will have FUN. FUN I TELL YOU! *foams at the mouth with psychotic ramblings...

**daedalus**

Grey Templar wrote:

I groan whenever I find I'm playing another person whining about playing against GKs

One of my good friends would do this incessantly when GK first came out. I put him in front of my GK and I played Nids for a game. After a fairly one-sided victory on my part, he began to realize that maybe they weren't an "instant win button" after all.

**Sigvatr**

Grey Templar wrote:
You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

I disagree though it's more of a misunderstanding we're talking about here. You refer to the persisting personality as a whole whereas I refer to a special behavior in a special situation. Playing a list that is clearly cheesy vs. a non-WAAC list is bad sportsmanship (unless it's a tournament). You can still behave nicely in that game, no doubt, and that would rather be an indicator for a good overall behavior, yet as stated above, playing WAAC vs. non-WAAC is poor sportsmanship.

Be aware that we come from two very different points of view. You are clearly biased towards GK as you are a long-term GK player. Your sig makes that pretty clear. I, however, had to face a lot of Draigowings in the past aka 5th, even worse, as a Xenos player and even worse, as a Necron player. Ye know, 3rd Necron codex vs. 5th GK codex. Polar opposites.

Don't try to look for offense when there's none

**Kaldor**

Sigvatr wrote:
playing WAAC vs. non-WAAC is poor sportsmanship.

I don't think it's that simple. You might not know what the local scene is like, or be preparing for a tournament, or had arranged a game with a different opponent who didn't show up. Mostly, if you build an abusive list because you just don't care about your opponents and only want to win, then you're an donkey-cave.

**Sigvatr**

Kaldor wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:
playing WAAC vs. non-WAAC is poor sportsmanship.

I don't think it's that simple. You might not know what the local scene is like, or be preparing for a tournament, or had arranged a game with a different opponent who didn't show up. Mostly, if you build an abusive list because you just don't care about your opponents and only want to win, then you're an donkey-cave.

Precisely. There might always be special situations thus I can only refer to the average.

**blood reaper**

I've quit on turn 1.

When I've lost, I've lost, there is no point in continuing with all your units reduced to half their strength and no weaponry capable of doing real damage.

Grey Templar wrote:
DeffDred wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
You are still being insulting.

Just because someone plays XYZ list doesn't make them a donkeycave. Nor can it be called donkeycave behavior.

You can play the cheesiest list in the world and still be the nicest person ever.

I like your sig...

Yeah, so?

I know this is purely my word and you can't verify it, but I get quite a few compliments on how nice of an opponent I am.

My sig is what I fall back on when people give me crap for playing GKs.

I find your sig obnoxious.

**Jidmah**

You can still play a highly competitive list in such a way that your opponent doesn't feel completely steamrolled. Like charging nob bikers into 40 guardsmen, just to see how many they can kill or having your warboss run straight into your opponents death star and challenge their HQ.

**Experiment 626**

Grey Templar wrote:

I groan whenever I find I'm playing another person whining about playing against GKs

Suck it up, I like my army. Invested time and money buying and painting it, to a quite decent standard if I do say so myself. You're going to play against me and you're going to like it. You will have FUN. FUN I TELL YOU! *foams at the mouth with psychotic ramblings...

And I invested time and money into buying and painting my beloved Daemon army! How should I react when almost every single GK army I've faced has at least 10 Strikes and/or Interceptors who then simply 'Cheese Quake' me into the back corner and effectively beat me first turn?!
I think I have a right to be pissed off when every single experience I've personally had vs GK's has been horrible and the least fun games I've ever played.

So sure, I groan when I see GK's across the table from me because I've never once had a 'fun' experience against them. I shouldn't be forced to quit my army.

Your sig comes across as rather arrogent. Daemons were the hardest to play in 5th. Now that they've gotten a good boost and some rules revisions, I could technically go out and bomb my opponents with 27 Flamers and then go on about, 'well, my army sucked all through 5th edition so now it's my turn to roflstomp so suck-it-up-buttercup!' I don't take such lists though or brag about how I could, because that attitude is just plain combative.
I don't know, maybe you ment your sig as a bit of a joke or to be a bit more light hearted, (plain text doesn't translate well), but you should expect a bit of hostility from those of us who've been repeatedly nutt-punched by GK players who simply abused their codex to its filthiest maximum.

**Grey Templar**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:

I groan whenever I find I'm playing another person whining about playing against GKs

Suck it up, I like my army. Invested time and money buying and painting it, to a quite decent standard if I do say so myself. You're going to play against me and you're going to like it. You will have FUN. FUN I TELL YOU! *foams at the mouth with psychotic ramblings...

And I invested time and money into buying and painting my beloved Daemon army! How should I react when almost every single GK army I've faced has at least 10 Strikes and/or Interceptors who then simply 'Cheese Quake' me into the back corner and effectively beat me first turn?!
I think I have a right to be pissed off when every single experience I've personally had vs GK's has been horrible and the least fun games I've ever played.

So sure, I groan when I see GK's across the table from me because I've never once had a 'fun' experience against them. I shouldn't be forced to quit my army.

Your sig comes across as rather arrogent. Daemons were the hardest to play in 5th. Now that they've gotten a good boost and some rules revisions, I could technically go out and bomb my opponents with 27 Flamers and then go on about, 'well, my army sucked all through 5th edition so now it's my turn to roflstomp so suck-it-up-buttercup!' I don't take such lists though or brag about how I could, because that attitude is just plain combative.
I don't know, maybe you ment your sig as a bit of a joke or to be a bit more light hearted, (plain text doesn't translate well), but you should expect a bit of hostility from those of us who've been repeatedly nutt-punched by GK players who simply abused their codex to its filthiest maximum.

Sorry all the GK players you've faced are D-bags.

I don't touch strike squads, they simply arn't worth the points nor do they fit my fluff.

And BTW, the top 2 competitive GK builds don't use Strike Squads. They use Paladins and Purifiers.

The more likely source of Warp Quake is a couple units of Interceptors, which can hardly cover the board.

**daedalus**

Experiment 626 wrote:

And I invested time and money into buying and painting my beloved Daemon army! How should I react when almost every single GK army I've faced has at least 10 Strikes and/or Interceptors who then simply 'Cheese Quake' me into the back corner and effectively beat me first turn?!
I think I have a right to be pissed off when every single experience I've personally had vs GK's has been horrible and the least fun games I've ever played.

Your problem is that you play fools who tailor to beat you because they know you have daemons. In a tournament setting, this shouldn't ever happen, because you're not geared up to autobeat an army you probably won't see more than one of at the tournament. I don't think it would be that bad, but I've never heard of an all strike/interceptor "power build". It's all "Draigo this" and "purifier that", neither of which have warp quake.

Your sig comes across as rather arrogent. Daemons were the hardest to play in 5th. Now that they've gotten a good boost and some rules revisions, I could technically go out and bomb my opponents with 27 Flamers and then go on about, 'well, my army sucked all through 5th edition so now it's my turn to roflstomp so suck-it-up-buttercup!' I don't take such lists though or brag about how I could, because that attitude is just plain combative.

Do you remember a year ago? You want to talk about combative attitudes: This time last year people were inches away from calling all Grey Knight players cheaters and declaring their immediate refusal to play anyone who brought the army, sight unseen of the content of their lists.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, as far as hardest army to play in 5th, I think that old Daemonhunters probably deserved that title. Not saying Daemons isn't hard at all, but when your only real anti-tank is Land Raiders or 3rd ed Dreadnoughts (which occupy the same slots) in 5th edition, you're fighting an uphill battle.

**ZebioLizard2**

:
Also, as far as hardest army to play in 5th, I think that old Daemonhunters probably deserved that title. Not saying Daemons isn't hard at all, but when your only real anti-tank is Land Raiders or 3rd ed Dreadnoughts (which occupy the same slots) in 5th edition, you're fighting an uphill battle.

Stormtrooper Melta

Or Chainfists/Eviscerators/Thunder Hammers

Not to mention all the S6 attacks frrom everyone who holds a NFW due to +2 strength from it meaning they all could hurt weaker AV10 transports.

**daedalus**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
:
Also, as far as hardest army to play in 5th, I think that old Daemonhunters probably deserved that title. Not saying Daemons isn't hard at all, but when your only real anti-tank is Land Raiders or 3rd ed Dreadnoughts (which occupy the same slots) in 5th edition, you're fighting an uphill battle.

Stormtrooper Melta

Or Chainfists/Eviscerators/Thunder Hammers

Valid point on the first. Melee as primary anti-tank just isn't viable, except for maybe Nids.

**Grey Templar**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
:
Also, as far as hardest army to play in 5th, I think that old Daemonhunters probably deserved that title. Not saying Daemons isn't hard at all, but when your only real anti-tank is Land Raiders or 3rd ed Dreadnoughts (which occupy the same slots) in 5th edition, you're fighting an uphill battle.

Stormtrooper Melta

Or Chainfists/Eviscerators/Thunder Hammers

Not to mention all the S6 attacks frrom everyone who holds a NFW due to +2 strength from it meaning they all could hurt weaker AV10 transports.

It really just made up for them not having krak grenades(and not having only 1 attack)