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Maybe this is silly to ask....but what happens if a Grey Knight Grandmaster gives Unyielding Anvil to a unit of Death Company? Which codex rule triumphs?

To further clarify....the Death Company can never be a scoring unit....but if it has Unyielding Anvil, it can still claim objectives, even though it's not a scoring unit? Unyielding Anvil doesn't make it a scoring unit, it just says that it can now claim objectives as it it were a troop.

Neither. Allies of Convenience does.

By which he means that Allies of Convenience makes the Blood Angels and Grey Knights treat each other as enemy units, so the Grey Knights can't give unyielding anvil to the Blood Angels as a result.

Why not? Grand Master rule says any unit in the army....

I looked over the Grey Knights FAQ, there wasn't any change to the wording of the Strategy rule. Did I just miss it?

MadmanMSU wrote:
Why not? Grand Master rule says any unit in the army....

I looked over the Grey Knights FAQ, there wasn't any change to the wording of the Strategy rule. Did I just miss it?

I don't think it would be needed. Allies of convenience says to treat them as enemy models for the purposes of all abilities. I don't have the exact wording of GS here at work, but surely you can't use it on enemy models...

Quote:

Grand Strategy: "...roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creatures, or walkers in your army..."

Army, in the context of the GK book, means grey Knight Army list.

Uh oh.

In that case, did we ever determine if you could take two Space Wolf HQs as allies to another army?

Is your allied detachment a part of 'your army'?

 daedalus wrote:
In that case, did we ever determine if you could take two Space Wolf HQs as allies to another army?

Don't go there...

Even if it wasn't Death Company....could you make, say, Blood Angel Sternguard able to claim objectives?

 grendel083 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
In that case, did we ever determine if you could take two Space Wolf HQs as allies to another army?

Don't go there...

Oh, I know it doesn't end well, but it's kind of the same situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Even if it wasn't Death Company....could you make, say, Blood Angel Sternguard able to claim objectives?

I'd say no, because I would say they're not in your army; They're ALLIES to your army.

I suspect the guy that posts after me will suggest the opposite.

You won't get a reasonable answer.

 daedalus wrote:
You won't get a reasonable answer.

Yeah...I was thinking maybe there was an FAQ that I missed or something, but obviously this is going to be a "what are your opponents okay with before the game starts" kind of situation.

Personally, RAW, I think both DC and Sternguard qualify. That said, I probably wouldn't push the DC issue, but I would argue that other units are perfectly acceptable.

Well on the allies of convenience section on the BRB under bold it states:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

It kinda clearly states that your army is one thing and allies of convenience is entirely another thing (not part of the army)

I'd say it works, but dont expect it to work in a tournament or something without an FAQ, just as them/your opponent before hand....

but ya, I say it works on battlebrothers (who dont exist lol) and convenience allies, heck even the begrudging allies since codex over rules BRB

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Well on the allies of convenience section on the BRB under bold it states:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

It kinda clearly states that your army is one thing and allies of convenience is entirely another thing (not part of the army)

Any my response to that would be Pg. 109 of the BRB..."your army can include one allied detachment". Key words being "include", as in "a part of your army".

Personally, I think the "allies are not a part of your army" argument is a bit ridiculous. If they aren't a part of my army, why do I get to control what they do? My opponent's models aren't part of my army either, but I can't control them....

I could see someone arguing that Grand Strategy doesn't include non-Grey Knights as an RAI instead of RAW type thing, but not "allies are not part of your army".

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Well on the allies of convenience section on the BRB under bold it states:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

It kinda clearly states that your army is one thing and allies of convenience is entirely another thing (not part of the army)

Keyword is "treats"...meaning, they are still part of your army, they are just treated as enemies. See above argument.

MadmanMSU wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Well on the allies of convenience section on the BRB under bold it states:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

It kinda clearly states that your army is one thing and allies of convenience is entirely another thing (not part of the army)

Any my response to that would be Pg. 109 of the BRB..."your army can include one allied detachment". Key words being "include", as in "a part of your army".

Actually, Lord Yayula cites the bit that solidifies this in my mind. Check it:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

So your Allies of Convenience aren't in your army? Either that, or your army is a subset of (your 'real' army) + (Allies), but then Allies of Convenience have to treat themselves as enemy units, which has hilarious ramifications.

I say it works just fine, look at the bullets on page 112 under (Battle Brothers) Bullet 2 - " are counted as being friendly units for the tagetting of psychic powers, abilities and so on."

Yet under (Allies of Convenience) Bullet 3 - "Are not counted as friendly units for the targetting of psychic powers"

There is no mention of disallowing of abilities, so I feel the Grandmasters ability will work fine.

Those are not exhaustive. Look at the text directly above the bullet points; It actually calls them examples.

Additionally, can you rationalize the fact that the bolded section in Allies of Convenience creates seperation between "Units in your army" and "Allies of Convenience" so that this still works?

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I say it works just fine, look at the bullets on page 112 under (Battle Brothers) Bullet 2 - " are counted as being friendly units for the tagetting of psychic powers, abilities and so on."

Yet under (Allies of Convenience) Bullet 3 - "Are not counted as friendly units for the targetting of psychic powers"

There is no mention of disallowing of abilities, so I feel the Grandmasters ability will work fine.

Under that logic it would imply that only psy powers are restricted and i don't think that is how it works , that kinda would mean that if I field straken allied with my chaos marines they would get CS and FC as they are not friendly units but it isn't a psy power so it is ok? Pretty sure it isn't.

MadmanMSU wrote:

Any my response to that would be Pg. 109 of the BRB..."your army can include one allied detachment". Key words being "include", as in "a part of your army".

Personally, I think the "allies are not a part of your army" argument is a bit ridiculous. If they aren't a part of my army, why do I get to control what they do? My opponent's models aren't part of my army either, but I can't control them....

The armies can include an allied attachment sure but wether they are truly part of the army or not depends on the level of alliagnance, if they were battle brothers sure there is nothing stopping them even the Battlebrothers section doesn't makes the distinction between your army and battle brothers only says treat these units ad friendly.

MadmanMSU wrote:Well on the allies of convenience section on the BRB under bold it states:

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot... "

It kinda clearly states that your army is one thing and allies of convenience is entirely another thing (not part of the army)

Keyword is "treats"...meaning, they are still part of your army, they are just treated as enemies. See above argument.

However if they were truly part of the army there wouldn't be the necessity to distinguish your army from the allied attachment, I didn't quoted the BRB because of the treat as enemies but because stating that your army must consider these outsider units as something implies that they aren't part of the army

If you argue that allied attachments are NOT part of your army, that brings into question a whole slew of weird scenarios that don’t make a whole lot of sense.

For example, your allies would never be able to control points. In order to control a point, you have to have a scoring unit on it and no enemy denial units….which means that, since your allies of convenience are considered “enemy” units that are not part of your army, they actually deny you all the points that they sit on.

Seriously.

MadmanMSU wrote:
If you argue that allied attachments are NOT part of your army, that brings into question a whole slew of weird scenarios that don’t make a whole lot of sense.

For example, your allies would never be able to control points. In order to control a point, you have to have a scoring unit on it and no enemy denial units….

It can still work. Battle Brothers are "treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view". Besides, I'm not arguing that Allies aren't a part of your army (at this point), merely that Allies of Convenience aren't.

which means that, since your allies of convenience are considered “enemy” units that are not part of your army, they actually deny you all the points that they sit on.

Seriously.

How do you know that outcome was not by design?

 Lord Yayula wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:I say it works just fine, look at the bullets on page 112 under (Battle Brothers) Bullet 2 - " are counted as being friendly units for the tagetting of psychic powers, abilities and so on."

Yet under (Allies of Convenience) Bullet 3 - "Are not counted as friendly units for the targetting of psychic powers"

There is no mention of disallowing of abilities, so I feel the Grandmasters ability will work fine.

Under that logic it would imply that only psy powers are restricted and i don't think that is how it works , that kinda would mean that if I field straken allied with my chaos marines they would get CS and FC as they are not friendly units but it isn't a psy power so it is ok? Pretty sure it isn't.

Your logic failed.

Page 60 – Colonel ‘Iron Hand’ Straken, Cold Steel and
Courage.
Change the first sentence to: “Friendly units chosen from
Codex: Imperial Guard within 12" of Straken have the Counterattack
and Furious Charge special rules”.

The way I see it follows all rules and breaks nothing, yes they are examples however why wouldn't they put the disallowance in if they put them in the allowance?

Nothing in GS says it targets a model or unit. It doesn't specify Codex: GK in an FAQ. "Your army" is subject to debate. Also I'm almost certain someone said they ran a Necron/GK list at NOVA and GS was allowed on Necron allies. Bottom line if your on the receiving end of this running you'll probably be butt devastated about it but you can't put forth rules or FAQ's to counter it.

 daedalus wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
If you argue that allied attachments are NOT part of your army, that brings into question a whole slew of weird scenarios that don’t make a whole lot of sense.

For example, your allies would never be able to control points. In order to control a point, you have to have a scoring unit on it and no enemy denial units….

It can still work. Battle Brothers are "treated as 'friendly units' from all points of view". Besides, I'm not arguing that Allies aren't a part of your army (at this point), merely that Allies of Convenience aren't.

which means that, since your allies of convenience are considered “enemy” units that are not part of your army, they actually deny you all the points that they sit on.

Seriously.

How do you know that outcome was not by design?

Because it doesn't make any sense. Desperate allies count as non-scoring and non-denial units.....but allies of convenience can be denial units, even against your own troops? Wut?

Look, you want to go down that rabbit hole with the whole "allies are not part of my army" shenanigans, be my guest.

MadmanMSU wrote:


Look, you want to go down that rabbit hole with the whole "allies are not part of my army" shenanigans, be my guest.

And you can enjoy yours. Since your army now is "your primary detachments" + "Allies of Convenience", your Allies of Convenience now have to treat themselves as enemy units. I mean, they're "Units in your army" right?

They now can't use psychic powers on themselves, embark in their own vehicles, or have their own ICs join their own units.

feth this janky edition.

 daedalus wrote:
Uh oh.

In that case, did we ever determine if you could take two Space Wolf HQs as allies to another army?

Is your allied detachment a part of 'your army'?

You can take space wolf HQ's in the allies slots.

Your allied detachment a part of 'your army', but an allied Space wolf detachment is not a part of the 'Grey Knight Army'

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I say it works just fine, look at the bullets on page 112 under (Battle Brothers) Bullet 2 - " are counted as being friendly units for the tagetting of psychic powers, abilities and so on."

Yet under (Allies of Convenience) Bullet 3 - "Are not counted as friendly units for the targetting of psychic powers"

There is no mention of disallowing of abilities, so I feel the Grandmasters ability will work fine.

But the ability only works on units in the (Grey Knight) army.

As that ability is in the Grey Knight Army book, and individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units. so Grand Strategy only works on GK's and not allied units.

Page 109 under the Partial force organization charts heading:
"If your codex contains the primary detachment section of the Force Organization chart, the allied detachment and fortification sections will not be present, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications."

 DeathReaper wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Uh oh.

In that case, did we ever determine if you could take two Space Wolf HQs as allies to another army?

Is your allied detachment a part of 'your army'?

You can take space wolf HQ's in the allies slots.

Your allied detachment a part of 'your army', but an allied Space wolf detachment is not a part of the 'Grey Knight Army'

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
I say it works just fine, look at the bullets on page 112 under (Battle Brothers) Bullet 2 - " are counted as being friendly units for the tagetting of psychic powers, abilities and so on."

Yet under (Allies of Convenience) Bullet 3 - "Are not counted as friendly units for the targetting of psychic powers"

There is no mention of disallowing of abilities, so I feel the Grandmasters ability will work fine.

But the ability only works on units in the (Grey Knight) army.

As that ability is in the Grey Knight Army book, and individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units. so Grand Strategy only works on GK's and not allied units.

Page 109 under the Partial force organization charts heading:
"If your codex contains the primary detachment section of the Force Organization chart, the allied detachment and fortification sections will not be present, as individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units or fortifications."

Than what is the wording on Grand Strategy, I thought it was any unit in your army? I'll doublecheck the FAQ, but if they intended not to be used on allies than they would have changed it to say Target unit from Codex: GK as they did with most others.

Edited out, bad example...

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
...what is the wording on Grand Strategy, I thought it was any unit in your army?

Grand strategy says "...before forces are deployed, the Grand Master can assign special battlefield roles to units under his command. Roll a D3 and choose that many infantry, JI, MC, or walker units in your army (but not models with the Ic rule, Inquisitorial henchmen, [or ghost knights](Etc...)"

based on the context of that rule being in the GK book, your army refers to units of Grey Knights.

Grand Strategy is not a rule that can be applied to allied units, as "Individual codexes do not contain rules for allied units"

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:
if they intended not to be used on allies than they would have changed it to say Target unit from Codex: GK as they did with most others.

Or they just missed it.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:


Than what is the wording on Grand Strategy, I thought it was any unit in your army? I'll doublecheck the FAQ, but if they intended not to be used on allies than they would have changed it to say Target unit from Codex: GK as they did with most others.

This is funny because it was the same argument regarding Eldar psy powers, everyone on favor was like, but they didn't change it on the eldar FAQ therfore obviously GW was intending for it to work on dark eldar allies, 2 days after the FAQ updates and states what many of us were saying powers and skills only affect your army book not allies. I forsee this happening on the next GK FAQ update if it keeps being a point of debate