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Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





North Carolina

This came up today. A Tau player was using a bastion and wanted to know if his battle suits could get inside, I honestly wasn't sure. I let him deploy his broadsides on the top level, this made sense at least.

But this raises the question: "Who can embark in a bastion?" Anyone? medium bases count as 2 models? Jump Pack/Jet Pack count as 2 models?

Furthermore, when the bastion takes damage (6/7 on the damage table) it references the models embarked as taking hits. Does this apply to only those 'inside' or those on the top level as well? The 6/7 results on the damage table state the models embarked have to disembark as well and that the terrain becomes impassable and so forth, by that logic the top would also have to disembark so my guess was that they were 'embarked as well' and therefore would also take the hits.

Any clarification/explanation(s) would help. I've looked over the rules for this in the BRB a bunch of times but we use the bastion so infrequently that the few times it has been utilized I've had to get the book out and leave it out during the match just to 'hope' to know what to do with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 00:31:46


   
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Chicago, IL

The same unit types that can embark in a transport vehicle can embark in a bastion.

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We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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Page 92 has the limits to the number of models.
   
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North Carolina

 DeathReaper wrote:
The same unit types that can embark in a transport vehicle can embark in a bastion.


Stormraven can carry a dreadnought, terminators, jump infantry, and normal infantry. A Rhino, cannot. As per the Grey Knight FAQ a chimera can carry ogryn, terminators, and normal infantry.

The logic you are using does not help me at all as some vehicles are obviously different than others, assuming the same holds true for Bastions. A detailed explanation for who can/cannot get in/ontop of a bastion as well as clarification for damage would be appreciated.

   
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Buffalo, NY

Only infantry (not jump or jetpack) can embark a vehicle or building, unless the vehicle or building has a special rule such as the Stormraven.

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 Jstncloud wrote:

Furthermore, when the bastion takes damage (6/7 on the damage table) it references the models embarked as taking hits. Does this apply to only those 'inside' or those on the top level as well? The 6/7 results on the damage table state the models embarked have to disembark as well and that the terrain becomes impassable and so forth, by that logic the top would also have to disembark so my guess was that they were 'embarked as well' and therefore would also take the hits.

Any clarification/explanation(s) would help. I've looked over the rules for this in the BRB a bunch of times but we use the bastion so infrequently that the few times it has been utilized I've had to get the book out and leave it out during the match just to 'hope' to know what to do with it.


This is covered on page 95 (of the DV rulebook, idk if the page number is the same in the hardback)

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North Carolina

Happyjew wrote:
Only infantry (not jump or jetpack) can embark a vehicle or building, unless the vehicle or building has a special rule such as the Stormraven.


Terminators are infantry unit type and so are broadsides, can they get in it? Nothing says otherwise, that I can find anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:

Furthermore, when the bastion takes damage (6/7 on the damage table) it references the models embarked as taking hits. Does this apply to only those 'inside' or those on the top level as well? The 6/7 results on the damage table state the models embarked have to disembark as well and that the terrain becomes impassable and so forth, by that logic the top would also have to disembark so my guess was that they were 'embarked as well' and therefore would also take the hits.

Any clarification/explanation(s) would help. I've looked over the rules for this in the BRB a bunch of times but we use the bastion so infrequently that the few times it has been utilized I've had to get the book out and leave it out during the match just to 'hope' to know what to do with it.


This is covered on page 95 (of the DV rulebook, idk if the page number is the same in the hardback)


Looked in the BRB couldn't find anything that specifically prevented certain models from getting in it.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/09/15 02:48:04


   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Jstncloud wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The same unit types that can embark in a transport vehicle can embark in a bastion.


Stormraven can carry a dreadnought, terminators, jump infantry, and normal infantry. A Rhino, cannot. As per the Grey Knight FAQ a chimera can carry ogryn, terminators, and normal infantry.

The logic you are using does not help me at all as some vehicles are obviously different than others, assuming the same holds true for Bastions. A detailed explanation for who can/cannot get in/ontop of a bastion as well as clarification for damage would be appreciated.

The stormraven has a specific exception for the dread.

Why not check the index for buildings and read it for yourself?

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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North Carolina

 DeathReaper wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The same unit types that can embark in a transport vehicle can embark in a bastion.


Stormraven can carry a dreadnought, terminators, jump infantry, and normal infantry. A Rhino, cannot. As per the Grey Knight FAQ a chimera can carry ogryn, terminators, and normal infantry.

The logic you are using does not help me at all as some vehicles are obviously different than others, assuming the same holds true for Bastions. A detailed explanation for who can/cannot get in/ontop of a bastion as well as clarification for damage would be appreciated.

The stormraven has a specific exception for the dread.

Why not check the index for buildings and read it for yourself?


I did? Why else would I be posting? It does not clarify one way or another. Rhinos can carry normal infantry and Chimeras can carry Ogryn, Terminators, and Normal infantry, what defines 'normal embarking', Rhinos? A page number explicitly detailing what units can/cannot get inside would be more useful than telling me to read what I've already read. I know the 'capacity' of the buildings and their sizes but not want models can get into them.

Page 72 states that the normal does not include Jump or Jet pack but what about, Broadsides, Terminators, Nobz, and Ogryn.

   
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nevermind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 03:04:09


 
   
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Chicago, IL

If it does not say it can hold anything else, use the rules for normal transports (Also in the index P.432 if you are wondering).

remember it is a permissive ruleset.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






 Jstncloud wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
The same unit types that can embark in a transport vehicle can embark in a bastion.


Stormraven can carry a dreadnought, terminators, jump infantry, and normal infantry. A Rhino, cannot. As per the Grey Knight FAQ a chimera can carry ogryn, terminators, and normal infantry.

The logic you are using does not help me at all as some vehicles are obviously different than others, assuming the same holds true for Bastions. A detailed explanation for who can/cannot get in/ontop of a bastion as well as clarification for damage would be appreciated.

The stormraven has a specific exception for the dread.

Why not check the index for buildings and read it for yourself?


I did? Why else would I be posting? It does not clarify one way or another. Rhinos can carry normal infantry and Chimeras can carry Ogryn, Terminators, and Normal infantry, what defines 'normal embarking', Rhinos? A page number explicitly detailing what units can/cannot get inside would be more useful than telling me to read what I've already read. I know the 'capacity' of the buildings and their sizes but not want models can get into them.

Page 72 states that the normal does not include Jump or Jet pack but what about, Broadsides, Terminators, Nobz, and Ogryn.


Page 93, infantry only. Or specifically, it says "All of the normal rules apply,so only one Infantry unit, plus any Independent Characters that have joined them, may occupy a building at one time"
   
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Hong Kong

Well, p.93 "Occupying building" is clear : Infantery + IC.

From the Appendix, the Broadside are type 'In" - so that quite straightforward.
Even crisis suit are type "In, Jp" : so they can enter standard building ( unless specifically forbidden by a special rule) and are bulky
   
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 Jstncloud wrote:
Page 72 states that the normal does not include Jump or Jet pack but what about, Broadsides, Terminators, Nobz, and Ogryn.

You're trying to overcomplicate something that is actually very simple. Infantry can ride in vehicles. Jump Infantry and Jet Infantry can not.

That's as complicated as the rules get. The 4 units you listed are all Infantry, so can all embark in vehicles (and therefore buildings) unless some other special rule says otherwise, as is the case with Terminators and Rhinos.

 
   
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North Carolina

 insaniak wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:
Page 72 states that the normal does not include Jump or Jet pack but what about, Broadsides, Terminators, Nobz, and Ogryn.

You're trying to overcomplicate something that is actually very simple. Infantry can ride in vehicles. Jump Infantry and Jet Infantry can not.

That's as complicated as the rules get. The 4 units you listed are all Infantry, so can all embark in vehicles (and therefore buildings) unless some other special rule says otherwise, as is the case with Terminators and Rhinos.


So a Broadside can get into a Devilfish? (not sure if it states that somewhere else in the codex)?

And do the 'larger bases' count as '2' when in buildings?

Furthermore Ogryn and Terminators have special rules, counting as 2 in vehicles or having a restriction on what vehicles they can get in, that is why I've been asking as there is not clear distinction as to how they interact with buildings, whether they count as 2 or 1 or whatever. (They can only get in some vehicles, Stormravens/Land Raiders and Chimeras. Terminators cannot get in Rhinos/Razorbacks and Ogryn cannot get in Valkyries).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
XC18 wrote:
Well, p.93 "Occupying building" is clear : Infantery + IC.

From the Appendix, the Broadside are type 'In" - so that quite straightforward.
Even crisis suit are type "In, Jp" : so they can enter standard building ( unless specifically forbidden by a special rule) and are bulky


Unless stated otherwise I was pretty sure Jump Pack/Jet Pack count 'not' get into transports.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/15 04:13:35


   
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 Jstncloud wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:
Page 72 states that the normal does not include Jump or Jet pack but what about, Broadsides, Terminators, Nobz, and Ogryn.

You're trying to overcomplicate something that is actually very simple. Infantry can ride in vehicles. Jump Infantry and Jet Infantry can not.

That's as complicated as the rules get. The 4 units you listed are all Infantry, so can all embark in vehicles (and therefore buildings) unless some other special rule says otherwise, as is the case with Terminators and Rhinos.


So a Broadside can get into a Devilfish? (not sure if it states that somewhere else in the codex)?

And do the 'larger bases' count as '2' when in buildings?

Furthermore Ogryn and Terminators have special rules, counting as 2 in vehicles or having a restriction on what vehicles they can get in, that is why I've been asking as there is not clear distinction as to how they interact with buildings, whether they count as 2 or 1 or whatever. (They can only get in some vehicles, Stormravens/Land Raiders and Chimeras. Terminators cannot get in Rhinos/Razorbacks and Ogryn cannot get in Valkyries).

You're seriously making this harder than it needs to be.
Those vehicles have specific exemptions. It's not that Terminators can only get in Land Raiders (et al). It's that Rhinos and Razorbacks specify Terminators can't ride in them. If you could figure out how to make it happen, Ogryns could ride in a Rhino.
Yes, they'll count as 2 models. I'm pretty sure Bastions don't have a model limit.
You're over thinking this hardcore. If it can embark in a vehicle, it can embark in a bastion.

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The base rule is any infantry unit can get into any transport (and thus any building)

Some infantry units have special rules to count as 2 or 3 models for purposes of determining transport capacity.

Some transports have special rules that specific types of infantry models cannot get into that specific type of transport.



   
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 Jstncloud wrote:
[So a Broadside can get into a Devilfish? (not sure if it states that somewhere else in the codex)?

No, because the Devilfish rules say that they can't.

And do the 'larger bases' count as '2' when in buildings?

Anything with the Bulky rule would count as 2 models as normal.


Furthermore Ogryn and Terminators have special rules, counting as 2 in vehicles or having a restriction on what vehicles they can get in, that is why I've been asking as there is not clear distinction as to how they interact with buildings, whether they count as 2 or 1 or whatever. (They can only get in some vehicles, Stormravens/Land Raiders and Chimeras. Terminators cannot get in Rhinos/Razorbacks and Ogryn cannot get in Valkyries).

To which the answer remains the same: They're infantry, so except where there is a specific rule that says otherwise, they can embark into transports or buildings.

There is no rule that says that Terminators can only climb aboard certain vehicles, just the one that says that they can't ride in Rhinos or Razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
XC18 wrote:
Even crisis suit are type "In, Jp" : so they can enter standard building ( unless specifically forbidden by a special rule) and are bulky

Jump and Jetpack Infantry can not enter buildings. Only normal Infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 05:02:58


 
   
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North Carolina

 insaniak wrote:
 Jstncloud wrote:
[So a Broadside can get into a Devilfish? (not sure if it states that somewhere else in the codex)?

No, because the Devilfish rules say that they can't.

And do the 'larger bases' count as '2' when in buildings?

Anything with the Bulky rule would count as 2 models as normal.


Furthermore Ogryn and Terminators have special rules, counting as 2 in vehicles or having a restriction on what vehicles they can get in, that is why I've been asking as there is not clear distinction as to how they interact with buildings, whether they count as 2 or 1 or whatever. (They can only get in some vehicles, Stormravens/Land Raiders and Chimeras. Terminators cannot get in Rhinos/Razorbacks and Ogryn cannot get in Valkyries).

To which the answer remains the same: They're infantry, so except where there is a specific rule that says otherwise, they can embark into transports or buildings.

There is no rule that says that Terminators can only climb aboard certain vehicles, just the one that says that they can't ride in Rhinos or Razorbacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
XC18 wrote:
Even crisis suit are type "In, Jp" : so they can enter standard building ( unless specifically forbidden by a special rule) and are bulky

Jump and Jetpack Infantry can not enter buildings. Only normal Infantry.


So Broadsides count for 2, Terminators and Ogryn don't have bulky (?) and therefore are 1 in terms of capacity for the building?

Also, as this hasn't been addressed, the damage results apply to the top level and the inside level as well correct?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 05:10:33


   
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I have a feeling they have added bulky to terms and/or ogryn. Check the faqs, i'm not sure.
   
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Not in the FAQs. Ogryn already had Bulky to begin with. Terminators just take up two spaces... That's covered in the same rule that says they can't ride in Rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jstncloud wrote:
Also, as this hasn't been addressed, the damage results apply to the top level and the inside level as well correct?

If, by 'top level' you mean the Battlements, no, damage only applies to one or the other. The Battlements are essentially a separate building. Check the terrain section of the rulebook for details on exactly how they work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 05:40:13


 
   
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North Carolina

 insaniak wrote:
Not in the FAQs. Ogryn already had Bulky to begin with. Terminators just take up two spaces... That's covered in the same rule that says they can't ride in Rhinos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jstncloud wrote:
Also, as this hasn't been addressed, the damage results apply to the top level and the inside level as well correct?

If, by 'top level' you mean the Battlements, no, damage only applies to one or the other. The Battlements are essentially a separate building. Check the terrain section of the rulebook for details on exactly how they work.


So, I assaulted the Bastion with Mephiston earlier, penned the bastion and got a 6 for damage. It said everyone disembarks and it is treated as impassible terrain for the rest of the game, so the guys on top can still be there? Is the bastion '2' buildings and I'd have to assault 'both'? Because the book says when I assault the bastion I can toss grenades up top and forgo their attacks which led me to believe a 6 or 7 on the damage table took out both. If that is not the case, how do you take out the top?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 06:24:38


   
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The guys on the battlements would have stayed where they were, because the battlements are treated as a separate building. The allowance to throw grenades at them when you assault the lower building is a specific exemption from the normal rules.

Damaging the battlements is covered on page 95. You can shoot at them the same way you can any other building.

 
   
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Yes, they can still be up there. The building, not the "battlements" (considered by the rules to be a separate entity), are what become impassable. If the units up there need to fall back, they need to follow the "Abandon the Battlements" rule (page 95 of the DV rulebook, bottom right). So basically, they can get down, but now you cannot get up to them unless you have jump or something.

Seriously, just go to the fortification rules and browse them. You appear to be confused, try re-reading the rules now that you have a few experiences under your belt and they'll make a lot more sense.

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#1. You should buy the rule book. Everything is spelled out there.
#2. A bastion is a medium building so it can hold 20 models.
#3. When you roll a 6 or a 7 on the building damage chart the squad on the battlements take the same number of hits as the guys inside, but only at half of the strength, and they have to leap down off of the battlements.


 
   
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 Blackmoor wrote:
#3. When you roll a 6 or a 7 on the building damage chart the squad on the battlements take the same number of hits as the guys inside, but only at half of the strength, and they have to leap down off of the battlements.

That's only if you specifically target the battlement. It's treated as a separate building, so doesn't take damage just because the enclosed part of the bastion did.

 
   
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 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Yes, they can still be up there. The building, not the "battlements" (considered by the rules to be a separate entity), are what become impassable. If the units up there need to fall back, they need to follow the "Abandon the Battlements" rule (page 95 of the DV rulebook, bottom right). So basically, they can get down, but now you cannot get up to them unless you have jump or something.

Seriously, just go to the fortification rules and browse them. You appear to be confused, try re-reading the rules now that you have a few experiences under your belt and they'll make a lot more sense.


That is why I came here, for clarifications because obviously reading the rules did not get the job done, furthermore the top level can be accessed via a designated access point/ladder (so they could get back up there without jump, this is covered in that 'rules' section').


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blackmoor wrote:
#1. You should buy the rule book. Everything is spelled out there.
#2. A bastion is a medium building so it can hold 20 models.
#3. When you roll a 6 or a 7 on the building damage chart the squad on the battlements take the same number of hits as the guys inside, but only at half of the strength, and they have to leap down off of the battlements.

1. I own a book.
2. I know how many it can hold
3. This is what I thought, that is, they took damage and had to get down, but the next post quoted is stating otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
 Blackmoor wrote:
#3. When you roll a 6 or a 7 on the building damage chart the squad on the battlements take the same number of hits as the guys inside, but only at half of the strength, and they have to leap down off of the battlements.

That's only if you specifically target the battlement. It's treated as a separate building, so doesn't take damage just because the enclosed part of the bastion did.


So I have one user saying it hurts both and one saying it hurts just one.

I am not trying to be annoying simply wanting to get clarification because the rules just were not clicking for me, hopefully my utilization of the rules forum to ensure I have a clear understanding is not a problem for anyone.

(If it is annoying or a problem to anyone, those of you who don't wish to help do not have to).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/15 08:33:49


   
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 Jstncloud wrote:
... furthermore the top level can be accessed via a designated access point/ladder (so they could get back up there without jump, this is covered in that 'rules' section').

From memory, the only access to the roof of the Bastion is from inside. So if the lower level is rendered impassable by a damage result, the only way up or down is to fly or jump.


So I have one user saying it hurts both and one saying it hurts just one.

So at that point, you go back to the rulebook, and re-read the section on Multiple Part Buildings.

The part you're looking for is the last sentence of the first paragraph, where is specifically says that they are dealt with separately for shooting and assaults.

 
   
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 insaniak wrote:
 Blackmoor wrote:
#3. When you roll a 6 or a 7 on the building damage chart the squad on the battlements take the same number of hits as the guys inside, but only at half of the strength, and they have to leap down off of the battlements.

That's only if you specifically target the battlement. It's treated as a separate building, so doesn't take damage just because the enclosed part of the bastion did.


Although if the building below suffers total collapse they must jump down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 10:12:13


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Yeah, just found that. So Blackmoor was half right... that's the one time that a damage result can also affect the battlement, and it only does so because the battlement rules say it does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/15 11:17:36


 
   
 
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