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Hi guys I've been really squandering on this post for a about an 1hr and a half now, and am.... just pondering on how to make a decent game out of 6th edition.
I've been trying to get around to my LGS every saturday and the games (and while I know my store doesnt speak for everyones),
seem much more.... decisive earlier in game. It seems like whenever you see a match there's always a really
hard core death star unit or list of some kind on each side of the field. (which is fine) however, they seem so strong it becomes in a sense like
the one which out-performs the primaris death star unit on the otherside generally wins the game. Say for example: A full man squad of TWC and WL against a Necron flier list.
Generally they crash in to each other and the TWC wrecks all the necron squads and the fliers wreck all the sw squads and really, who's ever unit
does more carnage or dies first generally wins the match, which in case comes down to the first turn; when one army shoots up the other armies death star unit
and that army generally wins ( not always but, i say generally because a deathstar unit usually consist of being a heavy point unit) and without it to really quickly dispose of
your opponents units as they would you, well.... your'e screwed. and the point I guess I'm trying to make out here is; whether
It's us as players fault for taking units like these in our list, or the games general push to us having to do so other wise, if we don't bring our hardcore units and your oponent does well then; they wreck your army and the game is pretty just....ehhh straight foward yes, your'e going to win as "I have no unit to oppose such a unit- you win"

Best example being of a ( Real account of a 1500 point all comers list of deepstriking grey knights today, which take down 2 and a half entire long fang units in one turn and essentially seal the deal in one turn as there is no possible counter to what has just happened. for all the opponent had left were:
3 grey hunter units one of which had a rune priest but chose to outflank so wasn't on the field yet, and the 2 grey hunter units which were on the field, are totallly out randed to an 24"
shooting brigade gk ss and one combat squad of intercepts which could essentially take out half or more of there squad each turn) (and let me remind you this is just the top of turn 2)
who's gonna win, I wonder... I mean 3 long fang units is potentially good in all cases and reasonably competitive list, but then they come up against a ds force which leaves them completely worthless
and pointless to have even put on the board as they were generally sent back to the case upon being put on the board literally, seeing it took about what... 2 minutes for turn one and bottom of turn 2 to go by.... >.>

So pretty much in reference to the question, how do you all go about making for an interesting game? Do you, when you coming to face an opponent agree to terms of playing ... list which are foresay.....I don't know ummm.... fluffy? or house rule based which states things like you (can't take units over a certain amount of points to keep it relatively casual and not easy to kill but, not hard to kill, either , or no flier units for the purposes of this game or something, which can spice up the game to make it so that the game isn't boring and relatively decisive

How do you have an alright game in 6th? You buy buy buy!

fishy bob wrote:
How do you have an alright game in 6th? You buy buy buy!

Wow... that helped the thread...

Anyways, the best thing you can do is have a semi-flexible list and have fun. It sounds like you are playing against some serious players, maybe try and scope out some newer players.

Don`t whine on Dakka about it, and bring a felxibel list as the man above me stated. And always remember to have fun

Don't take it so seriously anymore.

Seriously.

You can have the most competitive list in the game, and be screwed over by a series of bad charge rolls, or have 5 psykers and roll all useless powers (happened to me). Alternatively, you might pull off a 12" charge that takes your opponent by surprise, and breaks his battle line (happened to me) or you luckily got 2 enfeeble psykers and a hemmorage psyker in the right place to wipe out a tactical squad off an objective with hilarious efficiency.

6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

That's why i love Tau.

Games swing back and forth, and its hrd to tell who is even on the lead, let alone a decisive early victory.


Best way to avoid this thing is make your list in a spread out manner, so that virtually nothing, not even a deepstrike deathstar, can remove you from the game in a single act.

Your list is in trouble in case enemy deep-strikes? set up in an anti-deep-strike formations. deep into terrain where deep strikes are harder, set up units in defensive formations that uses sacrificial units to block the path to essential ones, split your forces in areas that they cover for each other, but cannot be mutli-assualted.

You KNOW his list, you KNOW what he is capable of, deploy accordingly.

If you deploy in simple battle lines against deep strike, its your fault for failing, you just employed the wrong tactics.

 -Loki- wrote:
6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

Which is exactly why a good game requires that you choose your opponents with care. Choose the guys that like to have a beer, laugh at your (and their own) bad dice rolls and treat the game as an excuse to relax in good company.

Anyone who thinks winning is the fun part of the game and brings deathstars, optimized ally combos or flying circuses can go play with himself or others of his sort. Especially if he also spends an inordinate amount of time on measuring everything and points out rules you missed only when that works to his advantage.

How I have an enjoyable game in 6th.

That whole bit about alternate terrain deployment. Yeah, scrub that out.

Double force orgs at 2000 points. Yup, ignore that too. If we're playing 2500 points, you can bring it up then.

That allies matrix table thing? Sure, if we're playing some special scenario, otherwise, it doesn't exist.

It tends to work.

 Compel wrote:
How I have an enjoyable game in 6th.

That whole bit about alternate terrain deployment. Yeah, scrub that out.

Double force orgs at 2000 points. Yup, ignore that too. If we're playing 2500 points, you can bring it up then.

That allies matrix table thing? Sure, if we're playing some special scenario, otherwise, it doesn't exist.

It tends to work.

Alternate terrain tends to allow one person all the good stuff on his side and the other a few shrubs depending who gets to place them 1st, so i agree.

Dub FOC, totally agree, this is so far open to abuse it isnt even a joke.

Allies matrx, Totally disagree and agree at the same time, I dont abuse it, I use it to fit in a StormRAVEN into my Ravenwing army, or to get some real deamons into my Chaos army, the part i agree with you on..... Nob bikers in a GK army, GK in a Cron army... well you get the idea lol.

But all in all I agree with what you have said, these 3 things can cause alot of tention (cries of cheese, cries of taking 12 vendetta sqaud..errr imagine it etc), so if the oponent agrees and you are both fine with it, just remove the problem before it starts, mind you, this should be done for all 40k games before they start anyway to avoid issues and confusion

Narrative. Make it themed if you're that way inclined. Go for the "obligatory units" idea, or build each other's army lists, or something like that.

I also support the "bro game" style - that is, pretzels and kegstands.

Do not play with buyable terrain pieces, do not use the alternate terrain placement rules, do not use allies, do not use double FOC.

Don't play like a WAAC donkey-cave, make friendly lists. Drink alcohol. Enjoy yourself

I'm a bit mixed on the whole buyable terrain pieces thing. Admittedly, that may be because I bought most of them cause I love planetstrike.

The only potential arguments I've come across are the people who, as a joke, talk about taking the Fortress of Redemption and indirect artillery army of heck.

 -Loki- wrote:
Don't take it so seriously anymore.

Seriously.

You can have the most competitive list in the game, and be screwed over by a series of bad charge rolls, or have 5 psykers and roll all useless powers (happened to me). Alternatively, you might pull off a 12" charge that takes your opponent by surprise, and breaks his battle line (happened to me) or you luckily got 2 enfeeble psykers and a hemmorage psyker in the right place to wipe out a tactical squad off an objective with hilarious efficiency.

So in other words, give up any expectation of enjoying a challenging game; that's now the wrong sort of fun.

-Loki- wrote:6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

No, the epitome of a beer and pretzels game would be something like Fluxx or Munchkin; games which are cheap to buy, simple to learn (particularly for non-gamers) and quick to play. A game with a 400-page rulebook, requiring hundreds of pounds minimum investment to involve yourself, and hours to play (to say nothing of the time invested painting) that offers nothing more than a "beer and pretzels" depth of play has failed badly.

I think the whole "beer and pretzels" routine is just to take the edge off the annoyance of randomness screwing your chance of winning via tactics. It's not about depth of play, it's about remembering the game is just a game and sometimes bad luck can bring about disaster through no fault of your own. The beer takes the edge off and the pretzels keep you doing something with your mouth other than cursing at the top of your lungs. To sum up, it helps to alleviate rage-quitting.

I have decent games by playing decent folks with decent lists.

My friends and I collect the things we are interested in as opposed to things that perform well.

My Ork army is full of fun units and lacks any kind of synergy.

My friends Daemons are as many large models as he can take.

Another friend collected a DE army only because he got a fantastic deal on old metal wyches (some of his favorite models).

Find people who play for fun (and can back that claim with their lists and collections) and you will find you'll have alot more fun.

Thanks for the responses everyone

6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

have you played against air cav or necron scythwing lately ?

I had it easy . I played IG in the 5th , so my army was good to begin with and the flyer changes only made my already low cost skimers even better. I did have to switch melta vets to plasma vets , but I had those back from 3ed , so again lucky . To have fun in 6th you need a good army and buy all the stuff that makes armies better in 6th . Playing bad or medicore armies at the start of a edition is too frustrating to be worth the money and time invested in to the hobby .

Thanks for the responses everyone, and if I came off as whiny... ehh i presume I did. sorry about that.
One thing that got me thinking is that....
the list wasn't even all that....competitive. it was just 2 standard gkss a unit of purifers a storm raven but seeing that the SW player had ADL it seemed to counter balance, (took off a hp the turn it came in ), some interceptors with an inquisitor as a commander....and well i guess the one op bastard callidus assassin. So the list wasn't necessarily OP, it had that really one nasty assassin, but by all means its not like the assassin is god. A typical shooting phase kills him the next turn...So like is it in a sense his fault for doing what he did as..... why would he engage in a shooting contest against LFs? which had a squad full of plasma cannons for one and 2 full missile launchers for the others.
And to add to that what we be the fun of a shooting contest across the board in which nobody is moving?
Anyone could sit up against a mirror and look at them selves throw dice and play a game against themselves in the same way.
I keep referring to this game because its the freshest game I've seen from my own experience... so I understand not all games are like this but, at that....
raises the question,,,,,are the codex's giving us units that are in general, too strong in the first place?( be it weapon combo or just special rules) in which the responses to a certain style of play is to succumb to; in this case deepstriking or be shot off the board trying to footslog all the way down to the other side?
I say this as generally a sw player likes to take you know at least one squad of LF' as that's what they are generally known for, but at just 150pts still able to dish out like 500 points of possible punishment per game blowing up tanks and eradicating units of space marines. Is it our fault for playing our most popular units?
The gk player is running 2 STANDARD troop choices but, with the rules it allows them to pfff.. come in and generally take down entire units unless they go to ground.

So what can be done to make an average competitive game ... I guess more fair without it being completely boring?
For part of the fun of the game comes from not knowing exactly what your opponent has, " By helping him "make' a list' and being able to counter it.
but another aspect of the game is having a somewhat average competitive list so as to bring excitement and somewhat adrenaline when playing the game.

Makumba wrote:

6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

have you played against air cav or necron scythwing lately ?

I had it easy . I played IG in the 5th , so my army was good to begin with and the flyer changes only made my already low cost skimers even better. I did have to switch melta vets to plasma vets , but I had those back from 3ed , so again lucky . To have fun in 6th you need a good army and buy all the stuff that makes armies better in 6th . Playing bad or medicore armies at the start of a edition is too frustrating to be worth the money and time invested in to the hobby .

But thats not having fun. That's competative play.

You restructured your list to face the new changes. Had you and your friends been playing just for fun then you wouldn't have to run out and buy new units.

If I wanted my army to be any good I'd have to spend $75 on lootas and hundreds on bike models.

Hell, my ork army has 11 boyz! That's it! I wanted to take as many different units as possible for the seer fun of painting it all. I may get crushed in games but at least they look beautiful while dying.

Too me, the Orks make great saturday morning villians. My marine opponents should smash my army. It fits not only the 40k fluff but it also fits the fluff of my own army (a simple refueling outpost for Speedfreeks).

English Assassin wrote:
No, the epitome of a beer and pretzels game would be something like Fluxx or Munchkin; games which are cheap to buy, simple to learn (particularly for non-gamers) and quick to play. A game with a 400-page rulebook, requiring hundreds of pounds minimum investment to involve yourself, and hours to play (to say nothing of the time invested painting) that offers nothing more than a "beer and pretzels" depth of play has failed badly.

Nerds like to relax too, you know. I can't mention the number of times I've been mashed playing 40k in my friend's basement. But I still knew the rulebook/codex word for word (ish).

Sigvatr wrote:Do not play with buyable terrain pieces, do not use the alternate terrain placement rules, do not use allies, do not use double FOC.

I think what you meant was "Come up with your own house rules". Banning buyable terrain peices is a huge nerf to many army's only source of Anti-Aircraft, allies are very underwealming from a power point of view, though very cool fluff-wise. And the double FOC really isn't an issue. I mean, you know if your opponent gets to double his FOC...you can too?

 Testify wrote:

English Assassin wrote:
No, the epitome of a beer and pretzels game would be something like Fluxx or Munchkin; games which are cheap to buy, simple to learn (particularly for non-gamers) and quick to play. A game with a 400-page rulebook, requiring hundreds of pounds minimum investment to involve yourself, and hours to play (to say nothing of the time invested painting) that offers nothing more than a "beer and pretzels" depth of play has failed badly.

Nerds like to relax too, you know. I can't mention the number of times I've been mashed playing 40k in my friend's basement. But I still knew the rulebook/codex word for word (ish).

Well, now you've got an edition in which intoxication won't notably affect your chances of victory! Lucky you! But try to understand that's not what everybody wants from 40k.

 English Assassin wrote:

 Testify wrote:

English Assassin wrote:
No, the epitome of a beer and pretzels game would be something like Fluxx or Munchkin; games which are cheap to buy, simple to learn (particularly for non-gamers) and quick to play. A game with a 400-page rulebook, requiring hundreds of pounds minimum investment to involve yourself, and hours to play (to say nothing of the time invested painting) that offers nothing more than a "beer and pretzels" depth of play has failed badly.

Nerds like to relax too, you know. I can't mention the number of times I've been mashed playing 40k in my friend's basement. But I still knew the rulebook/codex word for word (ish).

Well, now you've got an edition in which intoxication won't notably affect your chances of victory! Lucky you! But try to understand that's not what everybody wants from 40k.

Speak for yourself, I have no problems beating my friends without running some dickish WAAC list.

Start a garage/basement league with the people you like to play against.

Make it a campaign with some house rules to cut back on min/maxing, like no special character HQs unless its a certain points amount, no allies unless its over 2K points, that sort of thing.

 Testify wrote:

I think what you meant was "Come up with your own house rules". Banning buyable terrain peices is a huge nerf to many army's only source of Anti-Aircraft, allies are very underwealming from a power point of view, though very cool fluff-wise. And the double FOC really isn't an issue. I mean, you know if your opponent gets to double his FOC...you can too?

About the forts, granted. Only allow ADL and the Bastion then. FoR and Skyshield are too easy to abuse.

The double FOC point of yours is far too short-sighted. I'd agree with you if all armies had equally strong possibilities of using the FOC. That's not the case, however. Furthermore, double FOC isn't going to balance anything out, it's your one-way path to WAAC lists and maximum cheese in an army list.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Testify wrote:

I think what you meant was "Come up with your own house rules". Banning buyable terrain peices is a huge nerf to many army's only source of Anti-Aircraft, allies are very underwealming from a power point of view, though very cool fluff-wise. And the double FOC really isn't an issue. I mean, you know if your opponent gets to double his FOC...you can too?

About the forts, granted. Only allow ADL and the Bastion then. FoR and Skyshield are too easy to abuse.

The double FOC point of yours is far too short-sighted. I'd agree with you if all armies had equally strong possibilities of using the FOC. That's not the case, however. Furthermore, double FOC isn't going to balance anything out, it's your one-way path to WAAC lists and maximum cheese in an army list.

Well it's true it lets a guard player take 6 russes, it also lets a marine player take 6 drop-podding sternguard.

Either you can't counter one FOC - in which case, you'd struggle anyway. Or you can counter it, and it's simply a matter of taking more of what works. What example would you give as a "WAAC" double FOC exploit?

 Testify wrote:

 English Assassin wrote:

 Testify wrote:

English Assassin wrote:
No, the epitome of a beer and pretzels game would be something like Fluxx or Munchkin; games which are cheap to buy, simple to learn (particularly for non-gamers) and quick to play. A game with a 400-page rulebook, requiring hundreds of pounds minimum investment to involve yourself, and hours to play (to say nothing of the time invested painting) that offers nothing more than a "beer and pretzels" depth of play has failed badly.

Nerds like to relax too, you know. I can't mention the number of times I've been mashed playing 40k in my friend's basement. But I still knew the rulebook/codex word for word (ish).

Well, now you've got an edition in which intoxication won't notably affect your chances of victory! Lucky you! But try to understand that's not what everybody wants from 40k.

Speak for yourself, I have no problems beating my friends without running some dickish WAAC list.

Oh look, somebody who can't tell the difference between enjoying a competitive challenge and "bringing a dickish WAAC list".

 DeffDred wrote:

Makumba wrote:

6th edition is the epitome of 'beer and pretzels' play, and as that suggest, it works best when having a beer with friends and not taking the game so seriously.

have you played against air cav or necron scythwing lately ?

I had it easy . I played IG in the 5th , so my army was good to begin with and the flyer changes only made my already low cost skimers even better. I did have to switch melta vets to plasma vets , but I had those back from 3ed , so again lucky . To have fun in 6th you need a good army and buy all the stuff that makes armies better in 6th . Playing bad or medicore armies at the start of a edition is too frustrating to be worth the money and time invested in to the hobby .

But thats not having fun. That's competative play.

Oh look, somebody else who can't comprehend the notion that a competitive game can be fun.

Oh look, people who think witty comebacks over the internet is going to help anyone get anywhere ever. Seriously. Drop it.



I agree with many of the above comments. Try starting a basement/garage campaign with your own house rules. I've recently done just that with a few people over at my FLGs. Like-Minded people who just wanted a friendly game where they could have fun.

 English Assassin wrote:

Oh look, somebody else who can't comprehend the notion that a competitive game can be fun.

That's an assumption.

When you assume you make an ass of you and me.

I can comprehend such a notion. You can't seem to comprehend that there is infact a difference between competetive play and "fun" play.

I agree with english assassin. The competitive side is a lot of fun. I don't run super competitive lists.i usually buy cool looking models but there is no fun in running lists which usually lose. Its good to play friendly games with jokey people but it is no fun getting crushed from the start.

Pray to Bro-sideon god of the Bro-cean for some better bros to play with. Bro.

I'm not a competitive player and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with competitive play, some people find that more fun. My suggestion though is that if you want a game that isn't decided in the first 1 or 2 turns then you'd be better aiming for a friendly kind of game with bro's.

If you want to continue playing competitively though then possibly find a less serious group or find people who are capable of being both fun/nice to play with and competitive. (Not saying all competitive people aren't fun/nice, it's just I've met quite a few who were neither nice to people or fun.)