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Ugh.


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At 26% the painter gets $34.11 or $3.41 per figure (actually 2 figures, a goblin and a wolf).

At $11.00 per hour, the painter therefore must paint 3.2258 figures per hour.

That's paint one figure every 18.6 minutes or face the Wrath of Shawn.

$11 an hour for the level of painting they're doing seems good to me. If you think it's an unfair wage go start your own commission studio. I'm not saying that in a confrontational manner; I'm being serious. You would get paid more since you're not paying all the over head cost.

I did.

But my point was what they are asked to do for $11.00 cannot be done.

That is why the quality suffers; not because the artists are not talented.

This sounds like it could be perfectly true. I just don't see how some are complaining about "low wages". Lower skill=Lower wage. I'm not saying you're not qualified to do a high skilled model, I'm talking about BTP's lvl 3's.

I wouldn't give Blue Table Painting a nickel after reading the comments from ex-employees.

Shawn is shady and very greedy. Not the good mormon boy he pretends to be.

One other comment he spoke about in his YouTube Channel. He was going over the commission services\pricing and
made the statement "if you are into miniature wargaming, you really ought to be able to handle having someone paint
your army". ROFLMAO What an asinine comment.

I would counter: If you own a miniature painting company, "you really ought to be able to handle paying & treating your employees
fairly, and not cheating on your taxes".

ianj253 wrote:
This sounds like it could be perfectly true. I just don't see how some are complaining about "low wages". Lower skill=Lower wage. I'm not saying you're not qualified to do a high skilled model, I'm talking about BTP's lvl 3's.

I don't think anyone is really complaing about low wages. The point of discussing the wages was to explain the quality. The pay also covers time required for research as well as priming, basing, clearcoating and any later adjustments. The artists were expected to compleat about 6 average level 3 figs per hour.


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I would also bet many of the artists are working extra hours off the clock to meet quotas so they dont get fired. I know all of them did when I was there, and were under less pressure than now.

seems BTP should adopt an airbrush method if they are trying to work that quick.

Then my figuring was about right, since each figure, being mounted types, was really 2 figures.

And look, I was all for the guy. I mean, his prices sort of set the market price. So the higher his prices went the better for me.

But then I experienced first-hand the real guy. I know how he treated me.

Now I have learned how he treats others.

Not OK. The ends do not always justify the means when dealing with people.

Now I think he has lost it. Did you see his 'tears of a clown' video?

ianj253 wrote:
seems BTP should adopt an airbrush method if they are trying to work that quick.

Great idea, in theory. The problem was, if Shawn found out that somebody figured out a faster way to paint something, he would lower the pay accordingly.


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TrojanArt Painting wrote:
Did you see his 'tears of a clown' video?

No, where is that?

Tears of a Clown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-NHLFI2-M4&feature=plcp





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Actually "crying clown." He is mocking the people on the TGN forum.

Bad idea. His videos are getting alot of dislikes now.

TrojanArt Painting wrote:
Tears of a Clown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-NHLFI2-M4&feature=plcp





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Actually "crying clown." He is mocking the people on the TGN forum.

Bad idea. His videos are getting alot of dislikes now.

Oh, OK. I hadn't really watched it and didn't make the connection.

I still don't really have a problem with BTP. I think if you dislike the kickstarter idea that's fine. It just seems the biggest problems at BTP are derived from the their size. Larger size->Larger overhead. BTP has to recoup their cost and make a profit. I don't think they're greedy as many have thrown out there. They're just trying to make their business work.

Here's an excerpt from the BYU student newspaper "The Universe" dated November 1, 2004, linked from the BTP website:

"Shawn is looking for someone to help fund some of his house projects. House projects are different from client orders because they require funding upfront, then sold after the project is finished."

Sound familiar?

TrojanArt Painting wrote:
Say you're a painter at BTP and a client orders 10 Goblin Wolf Riders to fill out his army for the coming WAAAGH! For no frills level 3, the cost is $232.40. Know how much the painter gets? $43.73. Unless it takes him/her longer than 4 hours to complete, in which case he/she gets something else. Fired. See the problem?

You can do the math yourself.

Figures $35.00
Assembly $57.20
Painting $131.20
Shipping $9.00

Painter makes $11.00/hr.

Funny how things around the studio don't seem to have changed, at least in this regard. When I worked there, painters started at 30% pay, and through a raise system could eventually earn as high as 45%.

Actually, no, that's not right. 45% was what we were told, but the actual pay cap was 44%. BTPs most productive painter at the time left as a result of finding out he'd been... hoodwinked? lied to? misinformed? and that in fact he could never attain that last 1%. I confronted Shawn Gately in an attempt to ameliorate the situation (and keep said painter from quitting) and Shawn gleefully agreed that the raise system was intentionally designed to prohibit a painter from ever maxing out to 45%.

It is possible for a boss to be successful and generous and loyal at the same time.

Here is an excerpt from an article about Wm. Hocker Toy Soldiers:

Although he did all his work alone between 1983 and 85, Bill knew he had to hire help to keep pace with his orders. Bill notes, "the first painter I hired in 1985 is still with me" . . . workers decide on their own schedules and are paid hourly wages, but labor costs still account for 60% of the price of Bill's final products.

To preserve his sanity and keep the figures affordable . . . Bill never keeps track of his own sculpting and setup time in calculating profitability.

And might I add, Bill does not whine about '12 hour shifts on Saturday' and 'living at the studio.'

Hey Jay, you must be the J in the infamous J&H that Shawn loves so much. You must have some interesting BTP stories.

Something has been bothering me about BTP's process for some time, and I hope that one of you former employees can shine some light on this apparent paradox.

BTP has a policy of keeping he extra bits and sprues after they assemble your model. With more modern GW kits, this can sometimes be up to 25% of the components on the sprues. They claim that this goes into a communal pot to be used on conversions for other clients. In the end, everybody benefits.

The troubling thing is, they also ask you to set aside a certain amount of money as a "conversion budget" from which they can work from. In fact, they recommend $50-$150. According to their site, "This covers the cost of the parts used and conversion work itself." It doesn't seem that the parts are coming from this communal part supply.

Where do the leftover bits go? As with all things Shawn and BTP, there seems to be some amount of dishonesty going on here.

BTP Service Guide - Conversions Budget

 TrojanArt Painting wrote:
Yea, I got pissed off on the TGN forum and told the lurker who took umbridge at my new name for Shawn Gately what he could do to himself. Probably me that got it shut down. Sorry about that. Really.

But I gotta jump back in here. I mean, come on, guys. Watch some the crap on his 'Gatelymusings' channel. Shawn hates the government. Cheating the IRS is just part of Gatelynomics, as he calls it.

He sees his employees as otherwise 'unemployables' who are lucky to have a job. Even has a video on Gatelymusings about it. So of course he treats them with disdain. He brags all of the time about how he is bettering the community and how much he is helping people.

And the way he treated me? I am not saying 'poor me.' My fault. As I mentioned on TGN, I should have listened to my wife. But can you imagine ignoring a person who drove over 1,000 miles to see you? For a week? Dude's something else.

Ugh.... I remember watching one of thows videos were he tried explaining that it's some crazy world bank conspiracy theory that is causing the cost of metals to go up, thus the metals used in minatures. (That and greedy companies like GW charging more for their metals unjustifiably/getting in on it.)

I commented on the video pointing out it's actually simply Supply and demand, because metals such as tin are in high demand for use in disposable/Non-Recyclable consumer electronics. These metals get used, and when done with alot of times they end up in landfills/not recycled. In his defence he did concede that he apparently did not know as much as he thought he did.

Personally after that my impression was that he was someone who tends to assume things/take things for granted too easily. From what you are saying, I can only assume he took what I had to say well because he had time to think over it logicically and I made a point to be clear I wasn't arguing with him, only giving him facts that he should consider. (Even gave links to some journals and stuff to read on the subject.)

Renfro wrote:
Hey Jay, you must be the J in the infamous J&H that Shawn loves so much. You must have some interesting BTP stories.

Renfro, our reputation precedes us, I see! Yes, that's us. I can only imagine what he's said over the years about me and my wife...

@bowloflostcells: Ah, you are beginning to peer behind the curtain, lol.What you described was standard while I worked there (you would NOT believe the size and scope of BTPs 'bitz room') and yet customers were charged conversion fees for time,effort and bitz used. The leftover bitz, or at time nearly entire sprues, went into BTPs ever-growing collection. I can only assume they continue to do so.

He even mentioned that he was thinking about hiring someone just to manage bitz in a recent video.

See this is what i dont understand why doesnt BTP just take all the trade stock they are buying in combine it with the bits section.it would make sense just split it into old and new parts .there is no reason BTP right now if they wanted to couldnt throw together smaller starter armies say even something like youd get in the old black reach set or the new dark vengance starter box .make sure the lists are interesting and some way balanced pts wise and people will buy them .it would be like buying one force from those sets but you get to pick what army and its comes painted .if you dont have the money to make 100`s of big armies then use what you have to make lots of small gateway armies and work up .

A friend of mine has a PC shop here in town .like all those places he ended up with lots and lots of parts left over from people geting upgrades and the like .did he just let them lay there gathering dust ? no he made cheap and cheerful pc`s that meant people could get online without forking out lots of cash.ok some stuff is going to just be knackered or pretty much worthless theres not much you can do about that .

The frequently used bits are kept for use on other projects. Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.

Conversion money goes towards artist time unless something has to be ordered.

Renfro wrote:
Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.

You're kidding me right? Then why the feth don't they just send the bits to the client?

and this is the guy who wants people to just send him 60 gaunts for his nid army ,place foreworld orders for store credit and hits his fans for $40.000 to do a way more impractical version of what i just suggested .i dont know the numbers or % of full blown armies verus smaller starter tupe projects which then get built on over time .but to me the later would seem the more common of the two .just down to people having less money and the welth of information on sites like this and videos on youtube, which show people that yes pretty much anybody can paint to a table top standard given a bit of practice.that imformation just wasnt as readly avilable even 4-5 yrs ago .personally i think more wargamers than ever are painting their own stuff but that could just be down to the fact wargaming is bigger now than ever.

if the market was there BTP would already have built something like this up long ago .ok maybe not crazy levels like having 100`s of armies just knocking about the place.i see a lot of comission guys/gals doing hero type figs conversions tanks stuff like that and that leads me to think most people are willing to army painter their stuff esp if its marines or something you can primer x colour pick out a few details then dunk .wargamers also set time limits pblically as a way of making them get the paints out for and hr or two .i think BTP decided ya know what would be great and really bring in the money ? if we sold 100`s of big armies all the time .BTP has its fans who repeatedly buy stuff from them and thats fine if somebody pays x$ and is happy with what they recived thats great .take their subscriber count on youtube its 23.242 right now but they only get round 3000 views and views cost nothing apart from your getting brainwashed into buying an army.out of that 3-4000 how many have ordered from BTP we`l say 50% how many reapeatedly order from BTP say half that again .and out of that how many repeatedly order full blown armies reapeatedly ? its still a hefty figure but it isnt going to be able to support knocking out 100`s of armies ,getting people out there kickstarter deals and geting existing and pcoming projects .

bowloflostcells wrote:
Something has been bothering me about BTP's process for some time, and I hope that one of you former employees can shine some light on this apparent paradox.

BTP has a policy of keeping he extra bits and sprues after they assemble your model. With more modern GW kits, this can sometimes be up to 25% of the components on the sprues. They claim that this goes into a communal pot to be used on conversions for other clients. In the end, everybody benefits.

The troubling thing is, they also ask you to set aside a certain amount of money as a "conversion budget" from which they can work from. In fact, they recommend $50-$150. According to their site, "This covers the cost of the parts used and conversion work itself." It doesn't seem that the parts are coming from this communal part supply.

Where do the leftover bits go? As with all things Shawn and BTP, there seems to be some amount of dishonesty going on here.

BTP Service Guide - Conversions Budget

Yeah, I noticed that too. Basicly, they keep all of the bitz that you paid for, then sell them to someone else.

This company sounds horrid. I hope miniwargaming doesn't get tarnished by them, they have been cooperating latley.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Renfro wrote:
Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.

You're kidding me right? Then why the feth don't they just send the bits to the client?

Exactly. However, it can be inferred that since BTP is unwilling to pay someone to manage bits, then that includes not having someone to keep track of which kits belong to which customers.

From what I've read, I would assume that everything going into the shop (save prebuilt or converted items) is added to their inventory and use that as one big resource pool for all projects.

Throw them in a baggy with the project code on it and put that in the plastic bins along with the assembled models .If your just giving the people the bits back then there is no need to sort them .merely tag them and keep them with the figs simple .

Dentry wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Renfro wrote:
Many of the bits are thrown out rather than paying somebody to clip them out and organize them.

You're kidding me right? Then why the feth don't they just send the bits to the client?

Exactly. However, it can be inferred that since BTP is unwilling to pay someone to manage bits, then that includes not having someone to keep track of which kits belong to which customers.

From what I've read, I would assume that everything going into the shop (save prebuilt or converted items) is added to their inventory and use that as one big resource pool for all projects.

If its going into a resource pool, then why are customers paying $150 for their conversion budget and giving up their extra bits if BTP has the bits already (which they got for free.) Something smells fishy here.

On a side note, I heard that for the top support level on their kickstarter, you also get life advice from Shawn. Wow I would love to hear some of that advice.

Yep. A pledge of $10,000.00 or more includes "business & life mentoring with Shawn and Sarah."