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How about everyone remember Rule #1 on this site (there's a link in my signature) and settle down in here a little bit, please?

Thanks!

I just sent support@MiniWarGaming.com this email:

Yesterday I started a thread on your forum discussing ethical concerns that myself and others have had with some of Blue Table Painting's practices.

These claims involve past tax fraud by this organization, which Shawn has admitted to being true. He has admitted on Tabletop Gaming News that these allegations are indeed true (www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2012/10/22/65829/).

"Basically those that filed the complaint got what they wanted. Legally, the matter is settled. “Compliance” I think they called it. I even made a few friends at the IRS. This was early 2008."

Other concerns deal with how Shawn has treated his employees. This has been verified by past employees of BTP. You can read this discussion here: (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/477183.page)

The thread that I started on your forums to discuss these concerns was immediately locked by the Admin with the explanation "apparently most of what is being said is hearsay or plain false". The only problem is that the claims have been verified by Shawn. Now I am left wondering why your organization would suppress discussion about legitimate ethical issues without investigating these claims further.

I am concerned that your organization is dismissing very serious ethical concerns out of hand simply due to your business relationship with BTP, rather than investigating these concerns.

In the past I have admired the videos that you have produced on YouTube. Right now I would like to know precisely where MiniWarGaming stands with regards to Blue Table Painting and allegations of unethical practices.

-Thank you

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't hold your breath, but I'll post the reply that I get from MiniWarGaming (if I ever get a reply) as soon as I get it.

I want to reiterate what Alpharius said as well. Let's keep the discussion here polite and civil.

Remember, for those who are looking for a miniatures painting service, like I was, this is currently the only place where information can be found about BTP so that they can make an informed decision about whether or not to do business with an organization of questionable ethical nature.

Shawn deletes any negative comments on his youtube channel. Both the Tabletop Gaming News threads and the MiniWarGaming Forum threads are now locked. This is the only place you can find out the truth about BTP. If this tread turns into a flame war with people attacking each other, then this thread will be gone as well.

Why has what is an issue that is internal to BTP and its employees (current or ex) become a crusade to pull down what Shawn has built? You don't have to like or even agree with what has been done. I don't, and I've worked for people like that myself so I understand how it feels. I don't work for those people any longer, and I don't use their businesses either. I discourage other people I know from doing so. But I'm not emailing every neighbor, competitor, and business partner that they have to try and get them drummed out of business. That seems unfair and a bit like misplaced energy.

Are there really people who so can't stand to see some build a business, and become the 800 pound gorilla of bespoke painting, that at the first sign of an issue they grab the torches and pitchforks? It seems like people are gunning for BTP wildly simply because it's the biggest target on a target rich landscape. I agree that whatever he's alleged to have done is pretty dishonest, and I don't enjoy his insane libertarian streak, but Shawn is a big boy and he can deal with the consequences of his actions and find resolution himself with the people involved. Additionally, the posts by ex and current employees of BTP have been intelligent and thoughtful, and they have clearly demonstrated that they don't need the rabble to stick up for them. Seems like things worked out for the best for them post-BTP.

If you don't like the services BTP provides, do not hire them. There are a lot of really awesome alternatives, as we've all seen in this thread. Instead of harassing MWG or whomever else, and I'm not even sure what you're trying to accomplish. You're just spreading vitriol at this point. Use that energy for something constructive. Maybe spend more time promoting the commission painters you like and feel deserve your custom instead of trying to drag BTP down. Start a thread about nukearts or someone else, start a blog about alternatives to BTP, use that energy for something positive. The easiest and most positive way to have an impact on BTP is send business to their competitors, not harassing the MWG guys.

If things are really so bad there, and their service so bad, and the owner really so reprehensible, what you want to happen will happen in the natural course of events.

Full disclosure: Earlier in the thread I gave BTP services a good review, and I stand by that review of the services I received.

 Zygrot24 wrote:
You don't have to like or even agree with what has been done. I don't, and I've worked for people like that myself..

.. I agree that whatever he's alleged to have done is pretty dishonest, and I don't enjoy his insane libertarian streak...

For those of us who are looking for a miniatures painting service, just as I was, I think it is important to have all the facts on the table so that you can make an informed decision about who to do business with. If a company has a very questionable moral track record, this is important information to me. It might not be to you, but it is to me. Shawn actively suppresses any criticism of his company, which is why we are working to make sure that the facts are out there for anybody to see.

If these facts don't affect your selection of commission painters, then don't take them into account when making your selection. But allow us to spread this awareness for those who want to take ethics into account when choosing a painting service.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So here's the response that I got from Matthew Glanfield

Basically what it comes down to is that I don't believe half of what is being said.

All Shawn admitted to was making mistakes on his taxes due to ignorance, which I think most companies have done (heck, I've done it, which cost me a lot of money a few years ago).

Also, reading the negative comments doesn't make me think anything of his policies. I met Shawn personally, and I met a lot of his employees. They are very happy to work for him.

So say what you want, but I don't want to have our forum used to talk badly about him. You can keep those discussions in other areas of the Internet.

Matthew

It is unfortunate that he's discounting everything that people here have said, especially former employees.

It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.

This is truly unfortunate.

I don't disagree with you. But if the BTP profile doesn't reflect reality or drowns out options you think are better, it might be better to make your preferred option bigger instead of trying to make BTP smaller. And it certainly doesn't help matters to harass MWG about it. Even if you feel their response to you was disingenuous, what is it you expect MWG to do about it? Deleting the forum post is reasonably protecting themselves from the kind of vitriol in this thread, even with the feeble rationalization.

By all means, discourage people from using BTP. I was happy with my service but that does not make me married to them, I don't think I'll be using them again in the future. But focus your energy more constructively than trying to destroy, even though you think you're righteous trying to destroy some edifice you find distasteful. Pulling BTP through the mud to drag down their profile doesn't actually help the alternatives.

 Zygrot24 wrote:
And it certainly doesn't help matters to harass MWG about it. Even if you feel their response to you was disingenuous, what is it you expect MWG to do about it? Deleting the forum post is reasonably protecting themselves from the kind of vitriol in this thread, even with the feeble rationalization.

Let me say that I was a fan of MWG. I love their videos and the batreps. I love their hosts! I never harassed MWG, nor did I ever mean to harrass them. It was my genuine hope that they were unaware of the ethical problems that BTP had. I was hoping that by shining light on these concerns, they would decide to distance themselves from BTP.

Not only are they aware of what Shawn has done, they are publicly standing by him despite these truths. This is disappointing to me.

It's their bed, they made it, they'll have to sleep in it.

The threads and conversations about BTP have been more about digging up ammo to shoot at them than encouraging people to use alternatives. It's not an attitude I generally like to see coming from "my people," war gamers.

I`m going to give this thread a rest for a bit .i just think people may be interested to know that most of BTP`S studio armies made in the past months are still up there for sale .if these haven't sold yet why have a kickstarter to build 100`s ?

remember the chaos dwarfs ? they are just of of the many armies still up there .
http://www.freewebstore.org/bluetablepainting/Chaos_Dwarfs/cat1459025_1403114.aspx

right im off everybody have a great weekend

That army is a commission army. You buy it than they paint it. They can make more than one just like the necron army up their. They could have already sold that army multiple times for all you know.

Miniwargaming is an awesome company and there videos were the reason I started to play 40k again. It's a fact that they do great things for the community and I'm glad Matt took a stand for what he believes in.

The Tax thing isn't really a concern for me, it's been proven the ex-employers are correct in this matter, and the IRS settled it.

What's got me concerned is a good friend has a project in with BTP at the moment and by their own admission it's taken them 5 weeks just to order the models. This confirms what the "current" employee said about there always being a 5-8k order back log and BTP using new project deposits to finnish and order older projects stuff.

That is plan robbing peter to pay paul and is no better then what is currectly happening with MG in the UK.

I think people have a right to be concerned, but I will be the first one to eat my hat if BTP actaully deliver a product my mate is happy with.

Shawn is constantly telling people in his video's turn around is quick on average 2-5 weeks, he has admitted to a ordering problem and blamed it on staff but holds to this turnaround time even though he knows at present that is misleading.

Then there is the actaully quality of the product, to date I have only seen one person display their project and talk up the experience... if there are 6000+ projects completed and the owners are happy why isn't youtube etc full of glowing reports?

I am going to ask my mate to post a full review here when / if this project arrives and if credit is due I will appologise for my concerns and doubts.

Matthew from MiniWarGaming is just being blinded by this friendship and to be honest it's his name and business so if he wants to bck BTP thats more then his right.

Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.

You're spot on about Brainleaf. His original you tube account was banned by BTP after spamming their channel with all his "concerns" so he made another account and spammed them again. I guess he gave up on two but I haven't really been paying attention to BTP's youtube channel.

ianj253 wrote:
That army is a commission army. You buy it than they paint it. They can make more than one just like the necron army up their. They could have already sold that army multiple times for all you know.

Miniwargaming is an awesome company and there videos were the reason I started to play 40k again. It's a fact that they do great things for the community and I'm glad Matt took a stand for what he believes in.

That army is only one of many on the site .and i don't see any need to go pestering other sites .

It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.

I disagree. We don't know what was going on in his head. He may have done it on purpose he may not have. Even if he did do it on purpose It isn't really a big issue in my mind. He is trying to run a small business in what I think is a market that isn't really that big. He may have done it just to keep his business from hitting the red and imploding by not having to pay as much tax. It wasn't ok for him to try and make the people that worked for break the law though if they said no that should have been the end of it. His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful. Which would be why he broke the law in the first place. Running a small business isn't easy

I think it's good that these issues are being talked about however. I for one was seriously considering getting something from BTP and now I'm not really sure what to do :(

ratsack wrote:

Fake accounts like catachan1brainleaf or bowoflostcells, with 90% of their entire posting history dedicating to throwing mud at this Blue Table Painting discussion and literally occupying every other post here to stifle any kind of discussion of the information posted in its infancy, certainly does smell of a smear campaign.

You're spot on about Brainleaf. His original you tube account was banned by BTP after spamming their channel with all his "concerns" so he made another account and spammed them again. I guess he gave up on two but I haven't really been paying attention to BTP's youtube channel.

well since all my comments were being deleted i was angry when i seen what was going on over on TGN .and yes it was "concerns" that pushed me to spam their their video`s telling people to look at what being said on TGN .or don't you think people who are backing BTP to the tune of $40.000 deserve to know about it ? and my original youtube channel was the same name as i use on here .the Herodotus one is just some i can like and fav vids to watch later .and i stopped commenting on BTP videos as soon as people started twigging to what was going on .but who am i to stop you trying to blacken my name with your snide remarks .any other dirt you'd like to fling ? as it isn't going to affect what people already know about BTP .oh and it wasn't banned by BTP it was blocked .i also didn't think people were that daft they couldn't figure out that was all me .but thanks for jumping in feet first btw did you actually read any of whats going on over at BTP or just trigger happy about spouting something everybody should know already if they had any sense at all ?

So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".

Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".

Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...

As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

"Well I'm going to lock this thread as apparently most of what is being said is hearsay or plain false."

That's an ... interesting conclusion (or is it arbitrary dismissal?), considering the only reason I posted here was because I could not respond to BTP Roberts near complete and total (heresay) misrepresentation of the facts regarding the whole taxes/contractors issue.

As I said before, Roberts explanation of the situation was about as incorrect as it could be. He was offering disingenuous explanations that were not even remotely close to fact. I didn't accuse him of lying. I knew he wasn't even working at BTP when the situation happened. So, should I conclude that Shawn told Robert the 'real problem' was that some painters didn't like deadlines and specific instructions? If so, Shawn absolutely categorically LIED about the events. Or maybe, it was just a mis-communication. Or maybe, it was just more spin. Those who don't like history simply re-write it.

Ultimately, anything said in this thread or any other thread on any other forum isn't going to affect BTPs bottom line in any tangible way. Shawn's been very successful in creating a brand, and I'll freely admit he's a pro when it comes to selling himself and relationships with his studio. In some ways, I think that's the true success of BTP - not rapidly painted moderate quality miniatures.

For those that wanted to know, this thread did provide some facts. That's all that really mattered to me.

Xanrn wrote:
So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".

Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".

Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...

As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

Considering Shawn deletes all negative comments on his vids, that doesn't mean anything either.

ratsack wrote:

It is totally obvious that Shawn manipulated and coerced his employees into masquerading as contractors just to defraud the government. However Matthew Glanfield has chosen to publicly stand by Shawn's lies for the sake of preserving a business relationship.

I disagree. We don't know what was going on in his head. He may have done it on purpose he may not have. Even if he did do it on purpose It isn't really a big issue in my mind. He is trying to run a small business in what I think is a market that isn't really that big. He may have done it just to keep his business from hitting the red and imploding by not having to pay as much tax. It wasn't ok for him to try and make the people that worked for break the law though if they said no that should have been the end of it. His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful. Which would be why he broke the law in the first place. Running a small business isn't easy

I think it's good that these issues are being talked about however. I for one was seriously considering getting something from BTP and now I'm not really sure what to do :(

Waitaminute.

"We don't know what was going on in his head" ?

I do. I was there. Shawn was very very very vocal and forthcoming with his opinions, and he certainly told us all what he thought.

"He may have done it on purpose he may not have"

I'll absolutely agree that he may not have been aware, initially, of the problem. But I went to him. More than once. I printed pages directly from the IRS website. Information so clear and obvious there was no mistaking what it said. I wanted to fix it. I wanted to stay at BTP.

" His action of firing them later to me speaks more of having money issues than being spiteful."

Why not both? He fired those - and you can fact check this with Shawn himself - who agreed that his existing non-compete agreement was invalid if we were to be independent contractors. Do you understand what that means? He could have had a legal NCA if he had employees. He wanted it both ways. He wanted NO competition of any kind, ever., AND he wanted to not have to pay employee taxes, compensation,, etc.

That's why he drafted the agreements to not have a time limit. He said to me, and I will quote, "I'll just have my cake AND eat it too" when he told everyone they were being let go and he was going back to solo painting.

Does that sound spiteful to you?

I won't condemn the man in his entirety, but he made many many repeated mistakes - personal and professional - and intentional decisions that hurt everyone that worked for him as a result. I can only assume he's learned from the experience, and maybe BTP is a much better place to work now.

But please, that whole 'who really knows WHY it all happened, so let's just not talk about it" is so flimsy it's not even funny.

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” Winston Churchill

 Brother SRM wrote:
With Blue Table you're paying for the name and the reliable service. Personally I find their paintjobs to be subpar, and bordering on heinous for the price. Here are some:
Seriously, look at this:

I didn't really expect to see one of the models I had commissioned from them in this thread. I wasn't planning on commenting but I feel obligated to tell my story. This was quite a while ago but basically I wanted a test squad because I had an entire space marine battle company that needed assembled and painted but when I received the test squad I immediately sold them on eBay and went a different route. It should also be noted this was considered level 3 at the time.

Got to admit that marine is pretty horrific, can't believe they even thought about sending that out to a customer.

Aw, come on, man. I kinda like him.

He reminds me of good times in a bath tub full of toys overflowing with Mr. Bubble suds.

Did he make a noise when you squeezed his belly?

That bright space marine,
Crayon red and yellow,
Really is a very,
Ugly little fellow.

I fear we'll all suffer,
So long as he's alive,
So I've asked my lil' friend,
To use her .45.

With one round she'll drop him,
Right through the head,
And the world will rejoice,
Because he'll be dead.

Xanrn wrote:
So am I the only one who clicked on that Chaos Dwarf army "they still haven't sold".

Then read the "This is NOT an army we have on hand".

Nice evidence there Inspector Gadget...

As for 6000+ projects and Youtube not being full of Happy Customers, well its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

there are other armies up there and sorry for not seeing that bit of info about the chaos dwarfs .

Xanrn wrote:

its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.

Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.

Like many, I've been keeping an eye on this whole ordeal since the start. As a commission painter, I don't want to get wrapped up in the arguing because it's unprofessional, and since I have no direct experience with BTP I don't want to sound bitter or jealous. However, I have had some general thoughts I'd like to add to the discussion.

-I don't think the majority of concerns are coming from a place of hostility. No reasonable person wants to see BTP fail; rather, I think BTP is seen as the poster-child for commission painters, and their current quality isn't what it should be. When looking up commission painters, BTP is the first search result you'll get. To the casual commission seeker (or to anyone who isn't a regular browser/poster of several websites and youtube channels), everyone is going to be "a painter like BTP," and when they see higher prices for lower-quality work, it affects the hobby. So yes, BTP is being "attacked" because of their status, but I really don't think the majority of critics want them to fail. Rather, people want them to be responsible and accountable for the spotlight that's constantly on them.

-To those wanting a good discussion, avoid sitting at an extreme. I've seen the tax fraud argument brought up several times, but from what I'm gathering it was settled years ago and isn't necessarily relevant to current practices. Likewise, I've seen people ignore everything and cry "witch hunt!" I don't believe BTP is where they should be. They've ballooned beyond what they expected after 9 successful years, and these are the times that make or break a business. It seems that BTP is trying to come to grips with their size, and like any business they're going to explore avenues that work, and they'll test ideas that will fail. If we want to help BTP, we need to keep our arguments leveled; don't nit-pick at every poor decision or hoist up individual cases that may not reflect the common experience. Likewise, don't bury your head in the sand and think that BTP can do no wrong, or just sit in ignorance because you don't want to take sides. Having a balanced perspective and clear head is key to any mature discussion. (as a note, I want to thank you guys for keeping this primarily mature and adult in nature!)

-The Kickstarter. This is something that I think needs to be addressed. Like many, when BTP was hinting at a Kickstarter I was expecting them to come out with some sort of BTP product - models, painting supplies, painting guides, etc. Instead, they're asking for funds to expand a business service. Honestly, I love the idea of "turbo armies." This is really a game-changer for those who want a competitive, painted army right away. However, the idea itself goes against Kickstarter's guidelines. Specifically, they aren't supposed to allow projects to "start a business," and I'd argue that this project would have been rejected if it was a brand new company trying to get started painting turbo armies.

Sadly, a common criticism of KS is that they will allow almost anything as long as they think the project will succeed and their 3% fee will be worthwhile. KS is as much at fault for green-lighting this (and ignoring all the reports) as BTP is for starting it. KS has brought out the greedy part of MANY people, because it's an easy way to get money for projects that could otherwise take months or years of hard work. And while KS was the last straw, I don't think it needs to be the big issue of this discussion. Let's face it, if we weren't all suffering from Kickstarter Fatigue (soon to be an accepted medical diagnosis, I'm told) this wouldn't have been nearly as big of an issue.

-Finally, I think it'd be good for this conversation to go somewhere. Really, what is the point of this whole internet discussion? After 6 pages on DakkaDakka, plus numerous discussion elsewhere, I haven't really seen a clear goal for these arguments. Some people are venting months/years of frustrations and disappointments, others may be joining in on the attack because that's how the internet works, and others are giving personal experience (positive or negative) to show what BTP is about. But this whole thing should really have an end goal, otherwise it will just be a series of arguments until it burns itself out and nothing is changed.

Does BTP need to be responsible for their business practices? Do they need to apologize to their workers and promise to fix their employee treatment?
Do we want an apology for their KS? Do they need to shut it down and try something else to fund Turbo Armies?
Do they need to fix their painting quality? Lower their prices?


Sorry for any rambling, as I've never figured out that whole "clear and concise point" writing style. I guess the TL;DR is that we need to figure out a purpose for this discussion while keeping it mature on both sides.

I think Rayofpaint pretty much covered it. Unfortunetly, BTP won't alter their business practices without some kind of pressure exerted on them. From what I've seen, appealing to their business partners such as Miniwargaming isn't working, because MWG is covering for them and shutting down any discussion on their forums. This is something that I think the users of Dakka need to look into also. And no, I'm not attacking MWG. I'm a MWG customer myself who doesn't want to see MWG dragged through the mud once this thing goes more mainstream.

Ray - lengthy or not, that was particularly insightful and well written.

My posts certainly do not stem from hostility. I jumped in on this thread because I felt I had to present accurate facts in light of what I saw as gross inaccuracy on the TGN thread, which had been locked. Robert had offered his explanation of the tax status issue, and people thanked him for clarifying it. To me, that's an injustice. I wanted people to know the facts.

By saying what I've said here, I'm not trying to facilitate BTPs failure. That goal would be beyond the ability of anyone but Shawn. There have been claims made that I was able to confirm (painters receiving approx. 30% of painting prices) and questions raised that I was able to answer. To me, that's all good - the more factual information is available, the more educated a consumer can be. (See the very first post of this thread.)

I'm of the opinion that the KS project is not appropriate - if BTP was creating a new line of models or unique bits or even a new ruleset for universal miniatures gaming, I would be more apt to consider that legitimately KS worthy. I'll freely admit though, I'm not all that knowledgeable about KS as a whole, so my opinion is only one man's opinion.

Lastly, regarding your "so what?" series of questions, I'd say:

Does BTP need to be responsible for their business practices? I think an actual acknowledgement from Shawn addressing his culpability re: the past tax status issue would go a long way towards showing he has the integrity he claims to have. The closest to it so far has been on the TGN thread where he said "IF I did anything wrong, I sure paid for it." That's not even close to an admission. I'm not bruised and heartbroken and waiting 4 years for an apology, but I think others would certainly see this as the stand-up guy thing to do.

Do they need to apologize to their workers and promise to fix their employee treatment? As I said, I'm not waiting on an apology. I doubt any of the other ex-workers from my time period are either. Honestly, an apology would be irrelevant. It wasn't a mistake that was made - it was a decision that was made when Shawn was confronted with the incontrovertible fact that he could not 'hold all the cards,' for lack of a more apt phrase. What's he going to say? As far as his current employees are concerned, I can only assume most are content or better with their positions, so probably no promises needed there, either.

Do we want an apology for their KS? I can't see this even being within the realm of possibility.

Do they need to shut it down and try something else to fund Turbo Armies? Personally, i would say yes - it seems there's quite a bit of doubt as to the real intentions behind the KS project, but like everyone else has said - if you don't approve of it, don't fund it. I'm curious to see the end result.

Do they need to fix their painting quality? Lower their prices? I'd say no and no, but as in they can't, not that they shouldn't. It couldn't happen without completely invalidating their business model. As it is, the price to quality ratio is skewed to begin with because of overhead - rent, utilities, etc. On top of that, all the "wow, cool" elements they provide - superlative customer service/contact, battle reports, videos - anything and everything that's not directly assembling/painting miniatures - make no mistake, these ARE being paid for. Time is invested in all these aspects, and time is money.

I think, in the long run, this thread does have a purpose, is still on topic - afterall, the first line of this thread was "Does anybody have any experience with this painting service?"

bowloflostcells wrote:

Xanrn wrote:

its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.

Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.

Oh god... can I interest you in a tin foil hat? You do understand that sites like dakka, MWG and even a youtube channel are under no obligation to provide you with a platform to slander them or there friends/partners? (or in your case to run a smear campaign) If you are saying something negative and they want to remove a comment or lock a thread then that is just how gak is.


Also for the record I cant stand Shaun or BTPs videos, the persona he presents for his channel makes me want to burn a bag full of puppies just to get some balance. But its just gaks me even more when I see someone with an axe to grind (seriously did a BTP staff memeber shag ya missus or something?) trying to rally folk against someone instead of confronting them directly. Grow a set of balls and confront him yourself if you have issue with the man/business.

 Jubear wrote:

bowloflostcells wrote:

Xanrn wrote:

its not full of Pissed Off Customers either and its been proven people with complain before they complement.

You do know that Shawn has admitted that he deletes posts on youtube with criticism right? Apparently he also gets his friends to block threads that don't praise him, like Matthew Glanfield on www.miniwargaming.com/ They are all part of his campaign to suppress the truth.

Unfortunately, Dakka Dakka is the only place that allows free speech.

Oh god... can I interest you in a tin foil hat? You do understand that sites like dakka, MWG and even a youtube channel are under no obligation to provide you with a platform to slander them or there friends/partners? (or in your case to run a smear campaign) If you are saying something negative and they want to remove a comment or lock a thread then that is just how gak is.


Also for the record I cant stand Shaun or BTPs videos, the persona he presents for his channel makes me want to burn a bag full of puppies just to get some balance. But its just gaks me even more when I see someone with an axe to grind (seriously did a BTP staff memeber shag ya missus or something?) trying to rally folk against someone instead of confronting them directly. Grow a set of balls and confront him yourself if you have issue with the man/business.

I hope you realize, there's a difference between trying to rally people against BTP, versus making the community aware of what BTP is doing? Obviously, BTP deletes negative posts from their websites and from youtube, so there's no honest criticism there. Dakka is pretty much the largest community of miniatures games players, and they don't censor posts. So, Dakka is the place to go to have an open discussion about the situation.

What would you expect him to do? He can't say these things on their website or youtube channel, because they'll delete his posts. Where else can the community as a whole be warned? If you visited a business in your city and you had concerns afterwards, wouldn't you want to tell your neighbors and friends about it? Everyone deserves fair warning about what they're stepping into if they try to do business with BTP. Personally, I've seen some examples of their work, and haven't been particularly impressed. Considering the fact that they charge a large fee for their services, that alone should be shouted into the virtual streets of the internet. You can get better paint jobs for less money.

I'm inclined to believe with you both. It seems like there is a little bit more of a "rallying" cry coming from bowloflostcells, but at the same time, Iron Dragon is right. The community as a whole should be able to get all the information they can about a company they're possibly spending hundreds of dollars on...