Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I`d say the kickstarter isn't going to reach it`s goal as its been hovering round the 22-24k mark for ages now .iv seen the number of backers drop a little then go right back up but the money change very little .i think people are either pulling out as clearly must have happened here or they are restructuring their pledge levels.it seems a lot of people want the BTP tutorial DVD`s which i cant help but think are going to be awful .It takes a lot of time and effort to make tutorial video`s of any kind as they need to be structured ,concise and clear in what they are trying to convey .not really one of BTP`s strong points ,but hey they may be deliberately awful so whenever you make something half decent after watching them you`l be shocked into thinking they are great .
By the way has anybody sat and watched the trade stock video ? im currently trying to muster the will to sit down and watch it .
RoninXiC wrote: You can always move back from your pledge. That's not something unusual.
It's weird because, as we know from the TTGN thread, this kickstarter is the last chance to save gaming as we know it. Given that we know that, why would people take money away from the campaign unless they WANT wargaming to die?
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
RoninXiC wrote: You can always move back from your pledge. That's not something unusual.
It's weird because, as we know from the TTGN thread, this kickstarter is the last chance to save gaming as we know it. Given that we know that, why would people take money away from the campaign unless they WANT wargaming to die?
Im not familiar with what TTGN is or what campaign they have... but how is THIS specific starter, BTP starter the last chance to save gaming?
Am I misreading something?
Clearly it`s not ,but that was one of the claims BTP were bandying around in their kickstarter video and a few others .Shawn`s grasp on reality hasn't been the best of late watch any of his long rambles and you`l see what i mean.
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
TL; DR: Kids these days, eh?
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
TL; DR: Kids these days, eh?
Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
1 it only affects painted minitures
2 it only affect people in america
3 It only affect a small population of people who want their army painted.. and getting BTP to paint their army.
From those 3 points only probably 0.001% of the whole gamming industry is affected. It sure doesn't affect me and for your infomation we all read that 136 comment long thread. its been posted here before few pages ago. Also if you believe that was his wife go ahead.
No harm to BTP and Shawn's overinflated sense of self worth .but if BTP folded tomorrow it would be a tiny blimp on the wargaming scene .the vast majority of gamers wouldn't really notice and the ones who do get commission work done via them would just go to any one of the 1000`s of commission painters out there .you have to admit it`s more likely than BTP saves wargaming from a problem it never had to begin with .
I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
There's a 136-comment news post about purely this kickstarter, and it involved BTP staff (and their wives, apparently), one of whom said:
"I really think what we’re doing is helpful to every single gamer in the entire industry, regardless of whether or not they use painting services. ”
When I asked for thsi to be clarified, as I couldn't see how it affected me one iota, the response was as follows (spoilered due to length):
Spoiler:
I spend a lot of time chatting with the owners of most of the bigger miniature gaming companies, and have spent a lot of time with some of the smaller ones. Whether people are privy to it or not, there is a big problem in the miniatures market at the moment. It’s one of the problems that is making games/miniatures cost more and more, and the problem has roots in instant gratification. I don’t think there is a single person who can deny that the new generations are becoming more and more used to instant gratification. Who hasn’t gotten frustrated when their cell phone took 30 seconds longer to load a page than expected, or the computer takes a full minute to boot up instead of 45 seconds. Maybe those examples just don’t apply to you, but the fact of the matter is that they are applying to more and more people. The generation of people who had no problem sitting down for 4 hours is growing old and phasing out.
The people that are now entering the industry, the members of this newer generation have two pretty common characteristics. First, they are more often than not impatient. Second, many of the ones that are patient, have demanding and involved lives that just don’t have much room for painting. In an age where life moves fast, people don’t often have 30-100 hours to sit and paint an army that will look as good on the table top as it did in their minds.
The problem that arises from this is that people who LOVE these games, many, many people, buy the starter boxes and booster packs and everything they think looks cool, and then it sits on their shelf, in “queue”. It sits in their room, it sits in the basement. They want to paint it, they’d absolutely love to paint it, but they never paint it. Sure that’s a problem for only the indicidual in your mind, but if you zoom out a little, and think a little bigger, you see a larger problem. When people buy a box, or ten boxes, for something they love and it sits around in their house, how likely are they to go buy another box. Even if they love the game? It isn’t likely. Then how will the sales go for the game companies that make the games we all like to play? They go down. This is very directly related, among other reasons, to why prices are going up so steadily for miniatures. I can be even more clear on this point, and perhaps give some statistics for anyone who might be interested. However, that prices are rising, I think is generally understood. Look at what a miniature cost 10 years ago when the hobbiest was a thriving part of the community, and you’ll see a difference. A difference that is larger than just inflation. I look at all the statistics, and I see a pattern.
How is this going to help you? Because, there are so many people, and this is the truth, that want our Turbo Armies. We have gotten SO many emails over the last few weeks, months, and years about this topic. People don’t care to paint, and the people who do care, but don’t have time. They still want to play, they can make time for a 45-90 minute game, but the idea of painting is daunting. I grant you that some people love to paint, and good for them! We also love to paint. As we sell Turbo armies, and as other painting companies (who already have expressed to us their interest in copying this if it is successful) we’ll ensure consistent business, at least we hope, for the miniature companies. Truth be told maybe we can’t make a big enough splash, I don’t really know. But we are trying. Someone has to do something before a box of space marines costs two hundred bucks. This is our best idea so far. I really hope even better ideas come along and are acted upon. It’s an idea that many of the largest miniature companies in the world are excited about, and are backing us on.
I hope that sheds some light? If not I will try again. I know what we’re doing is out of an effort to make things better and that many of the most informed people in our industry can see, at least the theory, of what we’re aiming at.
TL; DR: Kids these days, eh?
Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
1 it only affects painted minitures
2 it only affect people in america
3 It only affect a small population of people who want their army painted.. and getting BTP to paint their army.
From those 3 points only probably 0.001% of the whole gamming industry is affected. It sure doesn't affect me and for your infomation we all read that 136 comment long thread. its been posted here before few pages ago. Also if you believe that was his wife go ahead.
I think you've misread. I'm not staff, not claiming to be, not even in that country. I was being sarcastic when I said the industry was doomed. Should have used smileys I guess. I don't suggest anybody read that thread if they don't want to, but I linked to TTGN so anybody concerned was chek I wasn't making up the (ridiculous) comment.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
Marthike wrote:Dude, are you a BTP staff? If you are please stop protending to be a random person off the internet. We aall know this BTP kick stater has nothing to do with wargamming in general.
Are you talking to the person that was quoted in the spoiler? The person that the poster there made clear was affiliated with BTP?
DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
Welcome to Gately compound .ever wounder what the BTP life mentoring session would be like ? well picture a week long session of this scary isn't it .I`m waiting to see the ATF raiding Valhalla on the news .
I have to admit it's kind of sad that Shawn seems so fixated on expansion and saving the industry from... what?
Even if he can be more efficient than soloists, which I don't see happening atm, and having multiple artists/assemblers make one army what will happen is a lack of creativity and artistry, based on the lowest common denominator of those artist's ability (for consistency).
What's more likely (and I hope) will happen is that collectors become more refined in their taste, and start to seek out different styles/schools and certain artists come into demand. Just like the normal art world, art 'factories' don't exist for the most part and if they do it is for the lowest common denominator, the good stuff is made by individuals or small studios.
The costs of capital (airbrush + paints? camera and computer? it's nothing) are not that great to make economies of scale important with miniatures painting. If anything it is more efficient for a soloist to paint at home and not to have to pay for rent, bosses, phones everywhere. Also, ebay and other electronic means of establishing reputation and ensuring security means that all but the most gullible won't get scammed, just like with anything else.
Marthike wrote: I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
Just to defend this; a repeat job of the titan diorama I just did (pretty much identical in every respect) would run to around £5,000 including the cost of the models. It was four months solid work (around 450 hours). Edit: Not including the 6 months of back and forth waiting for decent enough parts to proceed efficiently. Pounds, not dollars. Could be done on a much lower budget and look *similar*, but certainly not the same.
Edit2: Conversely, GD finalist level -squads- I can churn out for around £150. Got a pin this year which I wasn't expecting just off a squad of BA.
Edit3: I'll repeat; not providing good quality photos of work is like writing your CV in crayon if you're a commission painter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/11/14 08:16:24
I'm almost tempted to start a "not providing good quality photos of work is like ______" fill in the blank contest. But there have already been some great submissions.
Marthike wrote: I just watched his stupid video and his lvl 10 cost $5000, one model for $5000? what is wrong with his head?
I don't even think a golden demon winning model cost that much. I have see amazing paint job, definatly golden demon finalist level sold for £150-£250.
His normal models lvl3 looks terriable, If I can earn that much money off a model like that I am set for life, I would be happy to paint his lvl4 or lvl5 models for the same price lol
But in the end this is my opinion so please don't take it as fact.
Just to defend this; a repeat job of the titan diorama I just did (pretty much identical in every respect) would run to around £5,000 including the cost of the models. It was four months solid work (around 450 hours). Edit: Not including the 6 months of back and forth waiting for decent enough parts to proceed efficiently. Pounds, not dollars. Could be done on a much lower budget and look *similar*, but certainly not the same.
Edit2: Conversely, GD finalist level -squads- I can churn out for around £150. Got a pin this year which I wasn't expecting just off a squad of BA.
Edit3: I'll repeat; not providing good quality photos of work is like writing your CV in crayon if you're a commission painter.
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
The vast majority of the work BTP is commissioned to do is 3/5 and sometimes 4/6. Once in a blue moon they get a 5/7, and they will almost always make a video out of that. Asking BTP to do a 10 is like paying employees at McDonald's to cook lobster for you. It's not what they do and there are better places to go for quality work like that - esp if you are planning on spending that sort of money. Much better places.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 09:34:52
Thats implying BTP have the capacity to produce a lvl 10.
You sure have a lot of faith in them xD
The vast majority of the work BTP is commissioned to do is 3/5 and sometimes 4/6. Once in a blue moon they get a 5/7, and they will almost always make a video out of that. Asking BTP to do a 10 is like paying employees at McDonald's to cook lobster for you. It's not what they do and there are better places to go for quality work like that - esp if you are planning on spending that sort of money. Much better places.
Lvl 10, not a chance right now. With the current batch of painters they are pushing it to get a quality lvl 5. Cameron was the best painter they had in the last couple years and he was the only one that could do a lvl 7.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/11/14 17:17:34
Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
Ifalna wrote: Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
Terrible. Yet, I wouldn't put it past BTP to do that.
Ifalna wrote:Maybe by offering a 10, they would mean commissioning a slayer/gd winner then reselling it at a profit. It's the only way they could produce it I can think of.
That was a good one.
But you would have to take their word for it when you paid "five to ten thousand dollars" for that level 10, since you would not be able to tell from the "purposely not very good" photos.
They had a half decent reputation for turning out decentish TT standard, but that seems to be in tatters these days. Not heard much good about them in the last year or so.
to be honest, winter, here in the states (or at least among my crew in Cali) BTP's reputation was originally for fast and cheap turnaround on dipped armies...
i've followed their work since 2004-ish...
the photos used to be very crisp, but this just highlighted the obvious dipping process, which some people poo-pooed...
this could be the reason why they decided to go with less revealing photos...
funny enough, around 2006 i was talking with Shawn about coming to work for him...
at that point my CV read: Golden Demon winner, Crocodile Games and Privateer Press studio painter...
unfortunately, he had a long list of rules for his painters, such as no smokers allowed...
being a smoker, i said thanks but no thanks...
looks like i dodged a bullet...
as for pricing, it's all relative...
some people would not pay $5 for someone to paint their minis, because they want the pride of knowing they paint their own armies...
others are collectors of fine art, and are willing to pay any cost...
personally, i have worked very hard, over ten years, to get my price up from $35 to $350 for a single man-sized mini...
plenty of people have told me my prices are too high, bordering on ridiculous, yet i'm still in business and have never had a complaint about the finished product...
if there are enough happy BTP customers coming back for repeat business, and sending their friends along too, then BTP will survive...
if Shawn ends up shotting himself in the foot with his own wackiness, that's on him...
responding to criticism with humility and grace always goes over better than a mad rant, or a dodgy justification...
we can all learn a good lesson about how not to act from both sides of the argument in this thread...
Im just an average joe iv no reason try and impress people on here or worry about what they think off me .Im just a gamer who`s sick of youtube and gaming in general becoming full of ego`s and money grabbers .And self appointed experts who barely play two different wargames acting like they know it all just to get freebee`s .Yes wargaming has it`s problems ,just not the ones BTP are claiming but at least they don't have the hand out to the tune of $40.000 like BTP .if Iv offended anybody then im sorry but i didn't realize it was a popularity contest .versus what BTP are at i think being a bit of an ejit is a small time matter .
BTP posted this in the Kickstarter comments 4 hours ago:
"We had some old employees go onto a lot of forums and say some pretty negative stuff, which hampered the momentum a lot. We have actually increased 1-4 pledgers every day, but a lot of the people who had high pledges in the 1-3,000 range have switched down. We would have passed our goal long ago if everything had stayed, but it just means we'll need to find more people! We'll just have to see what happens!"
I guess he does not think that people will bother to go to kicktraq.com and look for themselves. Check it out. The stats are very detailed and do not reflect what he said.
