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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/19/pastors-pledge-to-defy-irs-preach-politics-from-pulpit-ahead-election/

This will be interesting when it happens.

Make that popcorn a double bag. This is gonna be good

I'm not a fan of remakes myself.

Civil disobedience has a rich and storied tradition.

That being said, I hope they revoke the tax-exempt status of those churches.

Me too... that sets a baaaad precedent.

Old news, they do this over and over again but the IRS is too spineless to actually enforce the law. At most they'll get a "please don't do that anymore" warning and the churches will still whine and cry about how they're being persecuted for their beliefs.

It is, however, pretty amusing to see them whine about "free speech" when nobody is banning them from speaking. But I guess "free speech" includes the right to claim a tax exemption that's limited to non-political organizations?

 Peregrine wrote:
Old news, they do this over and over again but the IRS is too spineless to actually enforce the law. At most they'll get a "please don't do that anymore" warning and the churches will still whine and cry about how they're being persecuted for their beliefs.

It is, however, pretty amusing to see them whine about "free speech" when nobody is banning them from speaking. But I guess "free speech" includes the right to claim a tax exemption that's limited to non-political organizations?

You not free from the consequences of your "speech"... that's never been the issue...

If a church want's to speak out at the bully pulpit... fine... but you don't get the tax exemption.

 whembly wrote:
You not free from the consequences of your "speech"... that's never been the issue...

If a church want's to speak out at the bully pulpit... fine... but you don't get the tax exemption.

Yes, obviously that question was sarcasm. The churches want to have it both ways, they want to make political statements but simultaneously claim the tax exemption for being a non-political nonprofit. It's only a "free speech" issue if you're the kind of entitled idiot who whines and cries about "persecution" every time you don't get special privileges.

 Peregrine wrote:

 whembly wrote:
You not free from the consequences of your "speech"... that's never been the issue...

If a church want's to speak out at the bully pulpit... fine... but you don't get the tax exemption.

Yes, obviously that question was sarcasm. The churches want to have it both ways, they want to make political statements but simultaneously claim the tax exemption for being a non-political nonprofit. It's only a "free speech" issue if you're the kind of entitled idiot who whines and cries about "persecution" every time you don't get special privileges.

Ah... gatcha!

Come on Oct. Lets get the screaming and yelling started early ---->insert manical laughter here<----


edit
They might have had a sign in the Down Under.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Civil disobedience has a rich and storied tradition.

That being said, I hope they revoke the tax-exempt status of those churches.

I if they don't have it revoked it defeats the entire bloody point of civil disobedience anyways

The churches may claim to have God on their side, but even still I would not want to pick a fight with the IRS. That is just not a smart practice.

Popcorn, hmmm. Agreed. Lets get twelve bags. This is going to be interesting, oh and some mountain dew as well.

My church has managed to stay out of politics and I am very happy about that.

Biggest "entry" into politics we have made was when our pastor talked about the fact that "guess what, Democrats are Christians too, and they go to church here as well. So there is no need to hate each other" in order to nip any sort of political/church activism in the butt.

 azazel the cat wrote:
The churches may claim to have God on their side, but even still I would not want to pick a fight with the IRS. That is just not a smart practice.

Actually it's a very smart plan. They know from past experience that the IRS won't actually enforce the laws because they're afraid of the inevitable outrage over "destroying religious freedom" and "persecuting Christians". All they'll do is send another meaningless warning notice, and the churches will get to rally their members around how the evil government is persecuting them.

It's the same reason why the religious tax exemption in general isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future: society unfortunately feels that religion deserves special privileges and it's a career-ending move for a politician to try to do anything about it.

Whoever wins, Christianity loses.

 Manchu wrote:
Whoever wins, Christianity loses.

If only. The sad thing is the churches doing this are going to collect lots of money from their outraged followers, while even if the IRS grows a spine and enforces the law they'll just become heroic martyrs with a horde of outraged followers eager to pay their legal bills. And given the privileged position even the relatively sane elements of society give to religion it's not like anyone is going to seriously question Christianity over this incident. Well, except us baby-eating heretic atheists, but that's pretty much a constant in life.

Well, and some of us religious folks.

 azazel the cat wrote:
The churches may claim to have God on their side, but even still I would not want to pick a fight with the IRS. That is just not a smart practice.

Peregrine wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
The churches may claim to have God on their side, but even still I would not want to pick a fight with the IRS. That is just not a smart practice.

Actually it's a very smart plan. They know from past experience that the IRS won't actually enforce the laws because they're afraid of the inevitable outrage over "destroying religious freedom" and "persecuting Christians". All they'll do is send another meaningless warning notice, and the churches will get to rally their members around how the evil government is persecuting them.

It's the same reason why the religious tax exemption in general isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future: society unfortunately feels that religion deserves special privileges and it's a career-ending move for a politician to try to do anything about it.

I disagree. I dunno how it is in the US, but in Canada if there is one agency you absolutely _do_not_feth_with_ it is the CRA (our version of the IRS).

Getting between a government bureacrat and a debt owing is worse than getting between a mother grizzly and her cub.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, and some of us religious folks.

Ok, yeah, I shouldn't leave you out. There are some religious people who support separation of church and state, but sadly not enough of them for incidents like this to really provoke a response from society as a whole, or make it any less political suicide to enforce the existing tax laws.


(Would you like a nice tasty fried baby while you're over here siding with the heretics?)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I disagree. I dunno how it is in the US, but in Canada if there is one agency you absolutely _do_not_feth_with_ it is the CRA (our version of the IRS).

Getting between a government bureacrat and a debt owing is worse than getting between a mother grizzly and her cub.

It's very different in the US. This is far from the first time the religious right has tried something like this, and every time the IRS backs down because they're afraid of generating outrage over "persecuting" the poor Christians. Even when it's a textbook case of violating very reasonable tax laws it's political suicide to touch an issue like this, and the churches involved know it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, and some of us religious folks.

Ok, yeah, I shouldn't leave you out. There are some religious people who support separation of church and state.

I think most Christians are for separation of Church and State, but it is only some twisted version in their minds. They think that government telling them what they can and cannot do violates separation of church and state, but churches telling government what they can and cannot do is perfectly fine.

Seperation of Church and Politics should be something we focus more on.

I think churches should be able to preach whatever they want, whenever they want. I also don't think any church should have any tax exemption to begin with at all. Render unto Caesar and all that.

Ouze wrote:I think churches should be able to preach whatever they want, whenever they want. I also don't think any church should have any tax exemption to begin with at all. Render unto Caesar and all that.

I like this idea. Can I vote for Ouze?

Being an employee of the IRS, I know when a civilian writes in with a "frivolous tax argument" they get slapped with a 5k$ fine for wasting time (I don't make the rules, I just enforce them). But I honestly don't know how they would handle this kind of deal.

Personally I hope they revoke the tax exempt status and then the church has to spend the next 10 years fighting it in court, without their tax exempt status. Last time I checked church is for preaching religion, not politics, and if I had a preacher I certainly wouldn't want him shoving his political opinion down my throat.

And so that I don't get in trouble: the above views are my own and have nothing to do with the IRS :-)

Hhmmmm I did not know Hobby Lobby was a Christian owned chain.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/09/20/growing-boycott-against-retail-chain-hobby-lobby-after-lawsuit-against-health/

Yep. They sell a ton of Christianity-inspired products like pictures of Jesus and crosses. Also, and this will be harder to notice if you are not yourself a Christian, but the muzak playing in the background are elevator-versions of hymns. And they're closed on Sundays.

 Manchu wrote:
Yep. They sell a ton of Christianity-inspired products like pictures of Jesus and crosses. Also, and this will be harder to notice if you are not yourself a Christian, but the muzak playing in the background are elevator-versions of hymns. And they're closed on Sundays.

Huh, I didn't know this either, the closed on Sundays is not a big indicator to me, next time I am in a HobbyLobby i will have to listen for the Muzak version of "Jesus loves me"

 Mannahnin wrote:
Civil disobedience has a rich and storied tradition.

That being said, I hope they revoke the tax-exempt status of those churches.

Absolutely. Any church that preaches politics should lose their exempt status.

Keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate and I'll keep my chocolate out of your peanut butter.

That might not be the appropriate metaphor, but I only know 3...

And Hobby Lobby being closed on Sundays pisses me off. That's generally the only free time I have to go pick up supplies and avoid rush hour Houston traffic. Lame.

 kronk wrote:

And Hobby Lobby being closed on Sundays pisses me off. That's generally the only free time I have to go pick up supplies and avoid rush hour Houston traffic. Lame.

Oh man, this gets to me too. The only day I'm within 30 minutes of a Hobby Lobby is Sundays. So frustrating.