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Agreed with Kharrak on all points above

 Kharrak wrote:

If you Waaagh...
5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 3.5" run + 6" assault = 24" - 25" average assault distance, 27" threat range.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 10.5" assault = 22" - 23" average assault distance, 24" threat range.

This is somewhat misleading since it's missing a very important point (besides the fact that average fleet charge distance is 8.5"). You can't Waaagh! on the first turn.

If you're counting the first turn's movement, 6th edition Trukk charge range is further than 5th editions, as Trukks can now Flat Out and extra 6" they didn't have access to before.

Not being to waaaghhh on turn 1 is important:
Hull points and the new movement make them much more likely to be in assault range turn 2, which is all your boyz want.

Though I feel comparing units in isolation just by looking at their own changes between editions is not the best way to analyse any unit.

Do not forgot to shoot the trukks weapons. Also remember to bring a ram.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Kharrak wrote:

If you Waaagh...
5th ed = 12" move + 3" disembark shunt + 3.5" run + 6" assault = 24" - 25" average assault distance, 27" threat range.
6th ed = 6" move + 6" disembark + average 10.5" assault = 22" - 23" average assault distance, 24" threat range.

This is somewhat misleading since it's missing a very important point (besides the fact that average fleet charge distance is 8.5"). You can't Waaagh! on the first turn.

If you're counting the first turn's movement, 6th edition Trukk charge range is further than 5th editions, as Trukks can now Flat Out and extra 6" they didn't have access to before.

You can move 6" less on the second turn than in fifth, so that evens out.

The only thing I have on my Trukk now is RR. I only run one with 3 MegaNobz but they are still as good as they were before. The RR caused my opp's BikerNobz to flee, fail their BP reroll, (he also failed the armor save but made the FNP:() and almost run off the table before regrouping the next turn. At least it delayed them a turn before they got back in to it.

If nothing else, ramspam could be fun!

So, you don't HAVE to overwatch the first thing that comes by. You can always hold off to overwatch something else in the charge phase.

I mean, if I saw a mob of sluggas and a deff kopta, and the deff kopta charged, I would certainly risk not getting to overwatch against the kopta at all if it meant I had a chance to overwatch the sluggas.

Unless I am missing something, no, you don't have to fire overwatch - but units that are locked in close combat can not fire overwatch. So the tactic of charging in with something cheap is valid.

If you don't overwatch fire at a deffcopta, you are locked in combat with it and can't fire any overwatch at all. You get charged with a mob of smelly boyz.
If you do fire overwatch at the deffcopta you use up your overwatch for that unit, for that turn, and you still get charged with a mob of smelly boyz.

The tactic works well, even if you have to field a bunch of sacrificial models just to make overwatch go away. I reckon it is an expensive way to deal with something that shouldn't be a problem for a green tide player.
In my games, when I charge in, I know I will loose some boyz, It is inevitable. Of all the charges I make in a game I don't really loose that many to overwatch. If I ever felt my boyz would be seriously hurt because of an overwatch strike by simple
weight of dice I would definitely sacrifice a small insignificant unit to draw the fire away.

Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

 KingCracker wrote:
Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

Good catch there, KingCracker - I see what you're saying...
I re-read the Multiple Combats section, and it is more about you charging several enemy units at the same time, not you using multiple charges on the same target unit. However I did re-read the Assault Phase section and it seems to say that:
You choose a single unit you want to charge with.
Then your opponent decides if they want to Overwatch fire.
Then you roll for charge distance.
Then you move your models.
Then you may go back and choose another unit to charge.

So is it not possible for example, to declare a charge with a copta, opponent decides to overwatch, move in to base-to-base, and then choose the Boyz from the OP to charge in next?

Perhaps my first post wasn't very clear - if so I apologise for spreading confusion.

If this *is* correct, then to get around Overwatch fire tactic would work - which makes Boyz in Trukks still operational.

 PipeAlley wrote:
The only thing I have on my Trukk now is RR. I only run one with 3 MegaNobz but they are still as good as they were before. The RR caused my opp's BikerNobz to flee, fail their BP reroll, (he also failed the armor save but made the FNP:() and almost run off the table before regrouping the next turn. At least it delayed them a turn before they got back in to it.

If nothing else, ramspam could be fun!

Ramming trukks are actually really, really useful. The ability to bunch the enemy up for future blast barrages or the burnawagon, the ability to run infront of heavy guns to obscure their line of sight, to opt for a sudden surprise ram against vehicles, or even a "why the hell not" tank shock.

I had a recent game against a Tau player, and at one point decided to Tank Shock a tau Crisis Battlesuit team, located about 6" off the table. He opted to Death or Glory quite happily (he had meltas on them, I was reminded later), but managed to actually fail his leadership and off the table they went

Kremlin wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
Incorrect. You declare who is charging what, collectively. So if you have 2 units that are going to charge a shoota boyz mob, you declare who is charging. Read Multiple Combats

So you can choose to let the sacrifice unit declare a charge, and save over watch for the scary unit that is also going to charge.

Good catch there, KingCracker - I see what you're saying...
I re-read the Multiple Combats section, and it is more about you charging several enemy units at the same time, not you using multiple charges on the same target unit. However I did re-read the Assault Phase section and it seems to say that:
You choose a single unit you want to charge with.
Then your opponent decides if they want to Overwatch fire.
Then you roll for charge distance.
Then you move your models.
Then you may go back and choose another unit to charge.

So is it not possible for example, to declare a charge with a copta, opponent decides to overwatch, move in to base-to-base, and then choose the Boyz from the OP to charge in next?

Perhaps my first post wasn't very clear - if so I apologise for spreading confusion.

If this *is* correct, then to get around Overwatch fire tactic would work - which makes Boyz in Trukks still operational.

Yea so it wasnt in multiple assaults, I was plucking that from the depths of my brain

But the result is still the same. Look on pg20 on the left hand side and read "The assault phase summery" in that box. It goes
1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve overwatch
3.Roll charge range.
4. Charge Move
And heres the magic part right here
5. Declare next charge or Finish Charge Sub phase.


Shows you right there. You have to declare all the units that you are charging with, before actually fighting the assault. So they basically all moe, then stand there for a moment while you figure out who to take pot shots at. You have to remember that your whole army (or opponents) are all moving at the same time, but since we dont have 10 arms, and such, you have to move everything one by one. So if 2 or 3 or 4 units are charging the same thing, just because your physically moving them 1 at a time, they are in game, all moving at once.

There, ignore the kopta, shoot the boyz. Or whatever unit would make sense here

Yea so it wasnt in multiple assaults, I was plucking that from the depths of my brain

Nah thats ok mate - we don't always carry the BRB around with us at all times right? (maybe some of us do - but that's just sad )

Either way, what you post is still a summary - the *full* rules are right beside it on the right of page 20 as noted; does that not mean that the summary ones are just that - a quick reference, while the full set are there to iron out things like this?
I really don't want to detract from the OP here and hijack the thread - can we continue this discussion in PM? I would happily oblige.. Not to be an ass-hat or anything...

If you want too, I dont mind

I might be a little confused, but it looks like the full rules will allow the "Overwatch distraction" tactic to work.


From pg20:
-----
To resolve a charge, use the following procedure:
- First, pick one of your units, and declare which enemy it wishes to charge.
- Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see opposite).
- Once Overwatch is resolved, roll the charge distance for the unit and if it is in range, move it into contact with the enemy unit..
Once this has been done, you can either choose to declare a charge with another unit, or proceed to the Fight sub-phase.
-----

This is another relevant point, from pg23:
------
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.
While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.
------

I'll just call our 'ard unit of CC guys the "main unit" and the Overwatch bait the "sacrificial unit".
The sacrificial unit finishes its Charge and ends up in base-to-base contact with the target enemy unit, before we choose to declare a charge with the main unit.
The target enemy unit ends up with enemy models in base contact, and thus cannot shoot (you do not have to wait till the Fight sub-phase before they're locked).
Thus, there is no chance for Overwatch to be fired at the main unit.


TLDR: You do not declare all charges with all units, then start moving them.. you declare and move each unit, one by one. So if the first (sacrificial) unit gets into base-to-base contact, the target enemy unit is "engaged" and can no longer fire Overwatch at the second (main) charging unit.


Edit: Aaaaand I just noticed you guys were moving this to PM so as not to hijack the thread and look like a dick. Which I apparently look like, now. At the very least, I feel like one. Oookay then..

If you assault a unit with two units, you move one and then the next. No where does it say that you do it together. No where does it despite being engaged you can shoot overwatch at the 2nd unit.

You read the charge subphase it says you do the list per unit assaulting one at a time. The multicombat sections do not change this or mention a change.

Yes, things are happening simultaneously apart form they are not. You can shoot a rhino, then shoot the occupants. You can get a cover save from overwatch, even if the covering unit will later move.

Agree, you might be wrong on this one KC

It really works like shooting. You point at a unit, it does all the four steps, then you point at the next unit.

The backbreaker of the multi-assault tactic is the difficulty of actually pulling a multi-assault off. You absolutely may not move in base contact with a secondary charge target if that same model could also get into base contact with the primary target. In practice, this prevents bridging and often assaulting the second unit at all. With just 12 boyz, minus overwatch or even just five koptaz, it's hard to not get all of them in base contact with the primary unit and still have some of them be able to reach the secondary unit without breaking coherency.

No, Im most definitely correct. Once again, READ THE SUMMARY! Its a quick break down of how things work.

Taken Exactly from the summery + the addition of my own in italics

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. DECLARE NEXT CHARGE OR FINISH THE CHARGE SUB PHASE!!!!

FIGHT SUB-PHASE
1. Choose a Combat
2. Fight Close combat
3. Determine Assault results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assalt Phase.

So try and and pick apart all you want, its there in black and white. Once a unit makes its charge move............ you stop and declare the next charge. So if 2 or more units are charging a single unit, that single unit can choose to NOT overwatch the first or second unit, and choose to overwatch on the third, BECAUSE your not IN close combat yet. This isnt something that can be lawyerd apart like other rules, its in black and white and that page. Read the summary, youll see Im correct on this one.

I'm somehow missing your point. Let's try examples.

Scenario: A unit of boyz, a deff dread and a kopta want to charge a unit of burnaz.

1. I declare to charge burnaz with kopta
2. You decide not to overwatch because kopta is 10" away.
3. I roll something less than 10
4. I fail the initial charge
5. I declare to charge burnaz with deff dread
2. You decide not to overwatch because you can't hurt it anyways.
3. I roll box cars
4. Deff dread makes the charge move, is in base contact with burnaz.
5. I declare to charge with boyz
2. You cannot fire overwatch, because burnaz are locked in combat with a deff dread
3. I roll any result.
4. Successful charge move, boyz are in base contact with burnaz
5. Finish charge sub-phase.

Where do you think I have gone wrong?

^That's the way I've been playing it, too. Declare charge -> resolve overwatch -> roll -> move -> declare next charge. This means that, if your opponent chooses to skip overwatch on the first charge, he might be unable to use it on the second if the first charging unit manages to get into base contact.

But I see KingCracker's point: Units are not locked in CC until the beginning of the fight phase, so they may use overwatch even if in base contact with another unit.

This is stuff to be adressed by a FAQ, really.

I agree with KC on this one. The 6th rule book does not say at what point you become locked, but the last FAQ for 5th said you become locked when the models start swinging at each other. I know this is 6th and not 5th but that is how I would rule on the matter if I was a judge.

Cyke wrote:

...
TLDR: You do not declare all charges with all units, then start moving them.. you declare and move each unit, one by one. So if the first (sacrificial) unit gets into base-to-base contact, the target enemy unit is "engaged" and can no longer fire Overwatch at the second (main) charging unit....

I'd say right there it covers when a model or unit is "engaged" or "tied-up"

i felt that it makes more sense choosing your overwatch instead of losing it after the first unit closes the gap, but i do have to say they are making a reasonable arguement and im starting to feel(unless they FAQ it) that a unit does in fact lose overwatch as soon as the first unit closes that gap.

The overwatch rule says 'locked in combat'
Page 23 gives the definition of 'locked in combat'
This is quite clear cut for GW, see the definition of emplaced(or what the variety of fortification weapons are) gun and grounded monsters.

So you take your first unit: declare, decide not to overwatch, roll charge, move models into base to base. Then the enemy becomes locked.
You declare the next unit charge, but the enemy is locked

Replying to above, I am not quoting for ease, re difficulty of multiassaulting:
Assaulting two units with one, is near impossible now.
Assaulting one unit with two, needs lucky lowish rolls for hordes of orks but units of 12 boys can neatly leave space for other models.
It sounds silly but the positioning preassault is crucial anyway:You want the nearest model after overwatch to be close, you want the nob to be more than 3'' away after the assault move, you want all the models to be within 5.5'' after assault move, now if you want to leave room for another unit you want to leave more to end up near the 5.5'' limit.

I really didn't mean for this to become a big stir but I can definitely see where KingCracker is coming from - I would still just like to try and clarify something though:

2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)

OK the part in the Italics *implies* that you can shoot at another unit that is charging you this turn. One example of when you wouldn't want to declare an overwatch shot has already been mentioned by Jidmah:

1. I declare to charge burnaz with kopta
2. You decide not to overwatch because kopta is 10" away.
3. I roll something less than 10
4. I fail the initial charge

As noted, in this situation you think to yourself "Nah the kopta isn't going to make it, Gork and Mork isn't with my opponents dice today. I'll skip that overwatch shot in favour of the boyz mob about to charge me"

Also, as mentioned earlier:

This is another relevant point, from pg23:
------
Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat.
While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

And:
Page 21 - Overwatch restrictions
"units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

Here it basiclly says ,If you choose to save your overwatch for the second unit and the first unit actually makes it in to combat, you're locked in close combat - no more overwatch for you.

The thing you lot are missing, is the "locked in combat" part, is under the Fight Sub-phase, which again comes after the overwatch and charge portion in the summary. Im nearly banging my head against the desk because you guys are somehow missing how the summary works. Im NOT going to post the damn thing again, for a 3rd time.

Now follow, step by step, how the summary tells you how to do this whole thing. It says to declare other charges, before you trigger the fight sub-phase. IE ANYTHING that happens before the fight sub-phase, happens before the fight sub-phase. So again, you declare different units to charge the same unit, you can BE in base contact, they are not locked, because that happens IN the sub-phase. And what happens before the Fight Sub-Phase? Thats right! Over watch and charges!

Ok, I understand where KingCracker is coming from, but I think he's reading too much into where the definition of "locked in combat" is located in the rules.

Yes, the Fight sub-phase comes after the Charge sub-phase, which means it comes after all charges and Overwatches.

Yes, the definition of "locked in combat" is found in the Fight Sub-phase portion of the text.

However, what does the "locked in combat" rule actually say?

Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot.

The rule doesn't say anything about when this takes effect. It doesn't read, "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies at the start of the Fight Sub-phase become locked in combat." It is a state that occurs whenever models are in base contact, which happens as soon as a unit is contacted in the Charge sub-phase. Could this rule have been placed in a different location to avoid confusion? Certainly. Might an FAQ be helpful for this reason? Yeah, it would. Is the rule itself ambiguous? In my opinion, it's pretty clear. Look at the next sentence: "At the start of each Initiative step, you must work out whether or not a model locked in combat is also engaged, as described below." Engaged is a state that happens at a certain time during the Fight Sub-phase, and this is clearly spelled out, in clear contrast to the state of being locked in combat.

The rules for Focus Fire are found on p.18, after the rules for making armor, invulnerable and cover saving throws. However, this rule outlines a decision that must be made before rolling to Hit. Although the Shooting and Assault rules are laid out chronologically for the most part, there are exceptions, and you can't assume that something is a certain way without the rules explicitly saying so.

King, I have read and reread your post on fight subphase, I still do not see where it says "locked in combat". Combat happens in the subfight phase, but you are locked in combat before that.

I would have to agree that the locked in combat happens with the first successful charge.

Oh you guys.............Obviously cannot follow a numbered rules set. Basically what you are doing, is assembling a computer desk, you read parts 1-4 and then skip to parts 13 and wonder why the drawers wont shut. Im done trying to argue rules in the tactics thread

I've read and reread, and nowhere in your "steps" does it say "tied in combat" so we have to assume this takes place when it says it does elsewhere.

No need to get pissy act like a child and start hurling insults. Show me where it saysunits are TIED IN COMBAT

Ladies and Gentlemen, there's a subforum ...wait let me rephrase that more appropriately

Ladies, there's a subforum called YMDC. Take it over there.

KC- I Hears ya. Hopefully it'll get FAQ slapped soon

Shoota Boyz are much more versatile than Sluggas. I'd rather have that versatility then the extra attack you get from a Slugga.

Thank you for posting that totally relevant information! I exalted your post, go hog wild