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 KingCracker wrote:
Oh you guys.............Obviously cannot follow a numbered rules set. Basically what you are doing, is assembling a computer desk, you read parts 1-4 and then skip to parts 13 and wonder why the drawers wont shut. Im done trying to argue rules in the tactics thread

It seems to me (not being an ork player) that in this edition, more than 5th, Orks need weight of numbers to make a difference in CC, because more of them will die to shooting. Trukk mobs just don't seem to bring that. Throwing multiple mobs at one target can work, but that seems inefficient and an easy plan to disrupt. Battlewagons and Shoota Boyz just seem like a stronger option for Orks now.

I love how Im suddenly raging over a rule, when Im very clearly not raging . Nor were any personal attacks thrown. I think you lot need stop reading things as personal when they are not. And yes I read your post, twice even to make sure your point was clear. Im not the only one that thinks thats how the rules work, Im simply the only one being verbal about it. Many people are too afraid/insecure to state what they believe to be fact.

So again, lets get back on topic and stop a ridiculous rules debate

 KingCracker wrote:
No, Im most definitely correct. Once again, READ THE SUMMARY! Its a quick break down of how things work.

Taken Exactly from the summery + the addition of my own in italics

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch (As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units,
that unit can immediately fi.re Overwatch at the would-be
attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.)
3. Roll charge range
4. Charge move
5. DECLARE NEXT CHARGE OR FINISH THE CHARGE SUB PHASE!!!!

FIGHT SUB-PHASE
1. Choose a Combat
2. Fight Close combat
3. Determine Assault results
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assalt Phase.

So try and and pick apart all you want, its there in black and white. Once a unit makes its charge move............ you stop and declare the next charge. So if 2 or more units are charging a single unit, that single unit can choose to NOT overwatch the first or second unit, and choose to overwatch on the third, BECAUSE your not IN close combat yet. This isnt something that can be lawyerd apart like other rules, its in black and white and that page. Read the summary, youll see Im correct on this one.

Page 21 has overwatch restrictions. Units locked in close combat cannot fire overwatch. Ok, so no overwatching if locked. Now, what do the rules say for locked in close combat?
Page 23 says: Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in close combat.
Multiple combat rules can be ignored, as it only give rules for having 1 unit charging into 2 enemies, it says nothing about having 2 units charging a single enemy.

You are told to check for locked in the overwatch rules. The definition of locked doesn't limit it to the fight subphase.

If you ignore the first unit and it connects, you can no longer overwatch as per the Overwatch Restrictions and the Specific Rule for "locked in close combat".

It's pretty strait forward. Overwatch has a limitation. Look up that limitation in the index, and it tells you what it means. Adding in the locked only happens in the fight subphase is adding something to the rule that isn't in the rule.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

If you ignore the first unit and it connects, you can no longer overwatch as per the Overwatch Restrictions and the Specific Rule for "locked in close combat".

This is my understanding as well. It's lead me to the idea of pairing trukkboyz with deff koptas and using the deff koptas as a pre-assault-assault.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
junk and stuff

Your correct you can find what you mentioned on said page numbers. Heres the problem. Over watch is on page 21, when talking about the charge sub-phase. The rules your speaking about are under the Fight Sub-phase which starts on page page 22 after the descriptions of how one works out the charge sub-phase. Overwatch is charge subphase, and units being locked are in the fight subphase. 2 totally different phases, so again, order takes precedence.

Mod PM'ed, because this is getting silly and should be renamed+moved to YMDC

Let's leave the rules discussion aside--and keep on topic. Thanks.

Has anyone started a thread on YMDC about this?

Basically once we've sorted this out, then we can get back to the OP about how to best continue using his Trukk Boyz; his concern is enemy Overwatch fire reducing the the effectiveness of his Boyz!

I dont think a thread in YMDC would really work. Itll just continue to be argued about. It really can go either way. So we would have to wait for GW to FAQ stating when exactly being in base to base starts counting for being locked, right when it happens, or in the Fight Subphase like I was saying. Itll just be argued in circles

 KingCracker wrote:
I don’t think a thread in YMDC would really work. It’ll just continue to be argued about. It really can go either way. So we would have to wait for GW to FAQ stating when exactly being in base to base starts counting for being locked, right when it happens, or in the Fight Sub phase like I was saying. It’ll just be argued in circles

^^ This and Hi-5 to KC.

It is a personal call. If you would like to create an entire thread on this, go right ahead - I *still* apologise to the OP for this diversion. I never ment it to go this far. I was happy to move it to PM with KC about our views.

I will go out on a limb here and state, without reservation: that *if* in the interest of gaming (which it is) and *fun* (which it should be about), that the rules are a GUIDELINE.
I will let that sink in a moment.

They are a GUIDELINE in the interest of an enjoyable game for BOTH players. If I really *HAVE* to reference:
Pg.2 Small rule book, 5th Ed:
Entitled "The most important rule!" states:

Winning at all cost is less important than making sure both players - not just the victor - have a good time.

Quoted For Truth.

To those that may rebuttal that those were 5th Ed rules and not 6th: I reply, I hope I never meet you on the tabletop.

To continue the OP thread - I think choppa's and Trukks have a place in 6th - depending on how you use them. You may concede to a "6th Ed is a shooters only game". Or you can say "Screw it! I will surprise the hell out of my opponent next time I play" and FIND a workaround.
It is all in your strategy, and your tactics (not the same thing). Go at it son; wreck the opinions of the norm mate!

Yea back on topic. I think choppas in trukks are really the only place for trukks once again. Sure you can put shootas in there, but the small amount of shootas wont really give you that bang you get from a big blob of them. Also, I dont get why some people are so freaked out from Overwatch. Unless your charging a huge blob of Shoota boyz, burnas or a big ol blob of IG, theres really nothing to worry about. Pretty much every other unit in the game would do a small amount of damage. Now Im not saying, blindly run into assaults overwatch be damned! But Im still saying, the wounds that are generated is pretty minimal.

One thing I learned, people will tell you somehing works Well or doesnt, the only true way to find out is to play it different strokes for different folks!

You may find that in you FLGS a trukk rush list works very well, where it might not work so well at mine I'm all for "give it a run and see how it goes"!

Haven't said that it's still mostly the same boys in trukks don't need shootas, and boys on foot are better off with them

The other way around isn't true though.

You'll find that things that work well for many people rarely don't work well for your special FLGS though. In 5th, when I got kanz for my birthday, I simply glued them together, converted some rokkit-arms from my bitz box and put them in front of my boyz, it worked every single time, no matter who I was playing at what store. Because the kan wall tactic was good.
However, when I fielded my swarms of deff koptaz it always hinged on whether my opponent could force ld checks on them, or even saw that weakness in the first place. If they didn't have to roll on their ld7 they absolutely rocked the game. If they did, they ran off the board and cost me the game.

So, if trukks work great for you at your store today, all it takes is a new player showing up with a new army, or one of veterans picking up a couple of new models to break it for you tomorrow. If you use a strategy that works for people all around the world at different stores against different opponents, that risk is going towards zero.

I've been thinking about this a bit more, and have started to see some viability in it, but only if you spam the hell out of it.

You can pack in 72 infantry models and 6 trukks, including klaw nobs and trukk upgrades for less than 1000 points. If you had, say, a 1500 point list that started with this and then added a nob biker squad with a biker boss, or a battlewagon or two full of MANZ, there might still be something to this still.

Even with trukk changes, it's still very possible to have a turn 2 assault. When said assault is done with triple digit numbers, including some nobz in various forms, that has the potential to be very scary.

Thats pretty similar to how I ran my Orks when I first got into them. Id spam trukks with the BW or two playing blockers. Once they got close enough, the trukks would zip out from behind the big guys and charge head long into the front lines. It either was shot up early, OR it would hit the lines like a sledgehammer

Are burna trukks too fragile - even if you have a couple of meks in with the burnas to run repairs? Meks could be useful with KMBs and being characters.

I'm finding it beneficial to run some shoota mobs without PK's - it is probably only useful in smaller games though.

Id say probably. But it can be done. 2 meks and 10 burnas. Youd still get a pretty good amount of hits but the problem is, the trukk is only a 10, so youll be fine against glances....maybe, but pens you can forget about it. Thats why they are typically seen in the BW formation. At least those can take a beating

PKs are now too overpriced for how easily they can be picked out of a squad of boyz and killed, or rendered useless. A 50pt model dieing quickly in CC or just standing around cause he refused the challenge is alot of points wasted.

I say skip the PK and use BCs, maybe try a blend, see how you feel about BC vs PK. I personally am gonna load BCs on my nobz next time I play.

Stop thinking in 5th edition where you would sent one mob to one target (Which was never a good idea to do in the first place with Trukks). Gang up. If you see 2 Trukk mobs as 1 unit, you will still have one Klaw attacking.

 Kharrak wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You missed the run in your first calculate.

And an "average 7 inch charge" doesn't mean much when you roll poorly on the charge roll. The cost of failure for making it into assault with a bunch of boyz is catastrophic. Say hello to two overwatches and an entire turn out in the open.

Check again. First calculate was non-waaagh assault, in which case you would not be running prior to assault.
Second calc was a waagh assault, which calculated in runs.

Failing assaults is a bummer, but it's never once been a deal breaker for me. The vast majority of the time I've been able to get close enough to the enemy to use even below average rolls. Of all my games of 6th so far, I've only failed non-terrain assaults thrice. The rest of the failed assaults were through terrain, which wasn't exactly a guaranteed situation in 5th either.

Naturally my experience isn't a representation for the entire hobby, but the only way you could have your assault distance half that of the average in 5th, was if you rolled double 1 to get out of the vehicle, and double 1 to assault. I certainly don't think assault is dead in any way. Blunted due to Overwatch, yes, but not something to be discarded.

Lol thrice? Seems like it happens at least once a game.. Random charge length really sucks.. If I had a guaranteed 5 inches i would be happy! Ive had games where I only needed 4 inches, and I rolled a 3 even with fleet! Random charge length is horrible... So yeah, only 3 time for you is really good, cause it happens at least once a game for me.

I'm not even talking about trukk size squads, I'm talking about boy squads in general

 AresX8 wrote:
I never thought about multicharging to draw multiple Overwatches, that's a great tactic right there!

This is indeed GENIUS. I'll remeber that

So let's say I've got 8 box's of boys to assemble, should they be shoota or slugga? I'm doing footsloging greentide if that matters.

Shootas hands down. Specially in a horde situation, youll be shocked at how lethal their shooting is. THEN they still get 3 attacks each on the charge. I run a horde-ish army of BadMoonz and I focus on Ork shooting. Yes, Ork shooting. Its incredibly killy

I generally see it, at least how I put it for green tide in 5th, was that the shootas still got the job done.

When you charge in with 116 attacks and a bunch of powerklaw hits, you are gonna kill whatever it is many times over. (Save for the lucky terminators). You charge in with the same number of shoota boys, you get the same amount of attacks (if you include the pre-charge shoot). Also, even without the shooting beforehand, 90 attacks is still more than enough to slaughter whatever it connects with.

Both units can murder practically anything in assault, while shootaboys now have the ability to murder in the shooting phase to.

I stopped using Sluggaboys after the save-killer choppas got put in the lost n found for this reason.

I sooooooo hope they give us the choppa rule back in our next dex. Man that would be awesome anti troop, specially those guys with the really good saves.

 Roboute wrote:

It seems to me (not being an ork player) that in this edition, more than 5th, Orks need weight of numbers to make a difference in CC, because more of them will die to shooting. Trukk mobs just don't seem to bring that. Throwing multiple mobs at one target can work, but that seems inefficient and an easy plan to disrupt. Battlewagons and Shoota Boyz just seem like a stronger option for Orks now.

This is right on. You start multi charging trukks and your looking at committing at the least (142 x 2) 284 pts for 2 trukks 22 boyz 2 big shootas and 2 nobs. Its just easier to blow something away using 105+ pts for 7+ lootas.

I'm actually a lite nervous for the next dex after reading the chaos one. I'm afraid they might make orks have to issue and accept challenges as well. I like the ability to chose

It would hurt ork competition, but I like the RP aspect of making ork characters accept challenges, of course this hinderance should be coupled with a slight decrease in cost. I'll take that!

 wowsmash wrote:
I'm actually a lite nervous for the next dex after reading the chaos one. I'm afraid they might make orks have to issue and accept challenges as well. I like the ability to chose

Keep in mind that the entire codex is going to change, not just some things. Chaos characters get a decent bonus for accepting those challenges, up to turning into a demon prince out of nowhere. If my nobz turn into warbosses after winning challenges, I'll no longer need a rule to force me to accept those.

Or, we get to loot all the wargear of any character we crush in a challenge. Look, my warboss pulled your overlord of his command bark and krumped him dead. Guess who has a brand new Waaagh!-scythe?