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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There are warbosses that have single-handedly destroyed titans.

Do not.

EVER.

Doubt an Ork.

I truly hope you are not referring to Wazdakka.

I believe I am.

Are you underestimating an Ork?

If yes, you lose. If no, Ork wins.

 Kain wrote:
I also expect that boneswords have similar effects on Daemons that Force weapons and Eldar witchblades do, which is to say pretty darn nasty. Additionally, Greater Daemons may be tough, but they're not immune to simply being torn limb from limb by a stampeding herd of Carnifexes, stepped on by a Heirophant, drowned in Hormagaunts, or blasted apart by Zoanthropes. Hive Tyrants also seem to be able to match most greater daemons in combat as well, if not outright slaughter them should they have boneswords. The Swarmlord itself also would likely make mincemeat out of most Greater Daemons and Daemon princes, as would the Doom of Malan'tai.

And again, Bluddflagg and his boys defeated the result of the merging of an Ascendant Azariah Kyras and the Daemon of the Maledictum; who with a fraction of it's power made Sindri vastly more powerful than a run of the mill daemon prince, and thus likely making Kyras the most powerful new Daemon Prince in centuries; by simply blasting and chopping at him before splattering his head with rocks dropped from space. Although to be fair, Kyras admitted that "his ascension was not yet complete."

Carnies = significant losses due to init 1 vs demon prince init 4 or 5 + MC + Smash

Herophant = flying away from from it (if you shoot at him you are wasting your shots)

Hormagaunts = Rot of Nurgle, dead guants

Zoanthropes = flying till he rushes in and auto kills in CC.

Hive tyrant = agreed, best option to fight a demon prince has the most options to choose from to counter him

Doom of Malentai = While rules wise conceivable... i've never been impressed with it's fluff he is basically a WMD to low toughness armies not MC's

Kyras = lame non-cannon game assuming a demon prince is a N64 boss fight... (lol)

Nids would probably have an easier time killing a demon prince with a tyranofex, impaler cannons, bone swords are nasty but a leadership 10 means he more than likely isn't dying it just brings him pain

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Kain wrote:
I also expect that boneswords have similar effects on Daemons that Force weapons and Eldar witchblades do, which is to say pretty darn nasty. Additionally, Greater Daemons may be tough, but they're not immune to simply being torn limb from limb by a stampeding herd of Carnifexes, stepped on by a Heirophant, drowned in Hormagaunts, or blasted apart by Zoanthropes. Hive Tyrants also seem to be able to match most greater daemons in combat as well, if not outright slaughter them should they have boneswords. The Swarmlord itself also would likely make mincemeat out of most Greater Daemons and Daemon princes, as would the Doom of Malan'tai.

And again, Bluddflagg and his boys defeated the result of the merging of an Ascendant Azariah Kyras and the Daemon of the Maledictum; who with a fraction of it's power made Sindri vastly more powerful than a run of the mill daemon prince, and thus likely making Kyras the most powerful new Daemon Prince in centuries; by simply blasting and chopping at him before splattering his head with rocks dropped from space. Although to be fair, Kyras admitted that "his ascension was not yet complete."

Carnies = significant losses due to init 1 vs demon prince init 4 or 5 + MC + Smash

Herophant = flying away from from it (if you shoot at him you are wasting your shots)

Hormagaunts = Rot of Nurgle, dead guants

Zoanthropes = flying till he rushes in and auto kills in CC.

Hive tyrant = agreed, best option to fight a demon prince has the most options to choose from to counter him

Doom of Malentai = While rules wise conceivable... i've never been impressed with it's fluff he is basically a WMD to low toughness armies not MC's

Kyras = lame non-cannon game assuming a demon prince is a N64 boss fight... (lol)

Nids would probably have an easier time killing a demon prince with a tyranofex, impaler cannons, bone swords are nasty but a leadership 10 means he more than likely isn't dying it just brings him pain

Kyras couldn't get out of the pit because he wasn't done ascending yet. He was immensely powerful, even by Daemon Prince standards, but he was still at a stage where both he and the Daemon of the maledictum sharing a body with him could die permanently due to the specifics of the ritual.

And when has the Hive Mind ever cared about even loss Ratios?

Neither do Orks, really.

 Melissia wrote:
I believe I am.

Are you underestimating an Ork?

If yes, you lose. If no, Ork wins.

So you believe that Wazdakka will ride off the top of a cliff, go through a Bloodthirster's Void Shields, break into its cockpit, and kill the crew piloting it?

Context is everything. A Titan is a large, not exactly hard to miss target, whereas all Greater Daemons not Great Unclean Ones are very mobile, with better reaction-time, and don't have crews you can kill.

I mean, it is not impossible for a Warboss to kill a Greater Daemon, but to refer to Ork Warbosses as comparable to a Greater Daemon in combat prowess? On average, certainly not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
[So you believe that Wazdakka will ride off the top of a cliff, go through a Bloodthirster's Void Shields, break into its cockpit, and kill the crew piloting it?

I think Wazdakka will ride in to the random nameless bloodthirster head-on, blazing his guns all the way, and launch himself at the daemon as his armored bike crashes in to him like a missile, and chop the daemon's head off.

Orks are like that.

You're still underestimating Orks. Thus, you lose.

Orks are the fodder of 40k, what is to underestimate?

And you are still using one of the greatest of all Warlords against a random Bloodthirster. I would like to see Wazdakka try this on, say, An'ggrath.

I imagine that even a Bloodthirster could be killed by enough grots. Even if he killed them all, he'd be crushed by the weight of their tiny corpses.

Never underestimate grots.

How do Killer Bees kill a human? They are so small and weak!


The answer is, because there is a lot of them, and a lot of tiny hit's, add up.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks are the fodder of 40k

Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

For fodder, they appears to be doing pretty freaking good considering they're winning over every other faction and have been for ten thousand years at least (even in the Emperor's Great Crusade, he did not manage to outdo the Orks in terms of territory conquered).

And you know what? Daemons haven't made any significant impact on Ork territory. Orks are actually quite resistant to the taint of Chaos, to the point where they are effectively immune, with tainted Orks being so rare as to be unheard of, even when compared to Blanks.

It's my understanding that the special means employed against demons aren't as much the only thing that will bring them down as they are the easiest and most reiable. For example, standard space marines can bring down a bloodthirster, it's just the same amount of grey knights can bring down a whole group of bloodthirsters (like in the final parts of the first war of armageddon). Therefore orks and tyrranids would be able to do it by sheer numbers, though not without heavy casualties (which wouldn't be a problem for either race as was previously stated).

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks are the fodder of 40k

Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

For fodder, they appears to be doing pretty freaking good considering they're winning over every other faction and have been for ten thousand years at least (even in the Emperor's Great Crusade, he did not manage to outdo the Orks in terms of territory conquered).

And you know what? Daemons haven't made any significant impact on Ork territory. Orks are actually quite resistant to the taint of Chaos, to the point where they are effectively immune, with tainted Orks being so rare as to be unheard of, even when compared to Blanks.

This is all one giant red-herring.

How big the Ork population is within the Galaxy has no bearing on whether or not they're fodder, especially considering the context behind the reason for their large population.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

For fodder, they appears to be doing pretty freaking good considering they're winning over every other faction and have been for ten thousand years at least (even in the Emperor's Great Crusade, he did not manage to outdo the Orks in terms of territory conquered).

And you know what? Daemons haven't made any significant impact on Ork territory. Orks are actually quite resistant to the taint of Chaos, to the point where they are effectively immune, with tainted Orks being so rare as to be unheard of, even when compared to Blanks.

Orks have the largest population in the galaxy. That does not make them the dominant force.

They are splintered and fragmented, there is not even a pretense of a unified race among them. They are just as happy butchering eachother as they are others.

The Imperium is the dominant force in the galaxy. They are hardly winning, when they can't even unify their own race.

The Orks are the fodder of the Imperials, at least no-name Greater Daemons usually require a big bad hero character to defeat, Orks are slaughtered by the thousands as an afterthought.

And no, Orks are not more resistant to Chaos than Blanks.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

For fodder, they appears to be doing pretty freaking good considering they're winning over every other faction and have been for ten thousand years at least (even in the Emperor's Great Crusade, he did not manage to outdo the Orks in terms of territory conquered).

And you know what? Daemons haven't made any significant impact on Ork territory. Orks are actually quite resistant to the taint of Chaos, to the point where they are effectively immune, with tainted Orks being so rare as to be unheard of, even when compared to Blanks.

Orks have the largest population in the galaxy. That does not make them the dominant force.

They are splintered and fragmented, there is not even a pretense of a unified race among them. They are just as happy butchering eachother as they are others.

The Imperium is the dominant force in the galaxy. They are hardly winning, when they can't even unify their own race.

The Orks are the fodder of the Imperials, at least no-name Greater Daemons usually require a big bad hero character to defeat, Orks are slaughtered by the thousands as an afterthought.

And no, Orks are not more resistant to Chaos than Blanks.

1) IOM always wins chaos is included and no, 9 times out of 10 they don't require heroes they are slaughtered by the same figurative thousands by IG same as orks

2) IOM is technically holding on by a thread losing countless worlds every year and the Astartes is forced to forge the reclamation campaigns.

3) Orks are not fodder, no army is or else it wouldn't even be play able. fragmented isn't the issue with orks you say it as though it were a problem to hold together each battle and it's not once a battle starts it's a rolling ball of snow on a very steep hill. When orks WAAAGh even the High Lords of Terra realize it requires absurd resources to combat them to a stand still. And unlike ANY other enemy Once a big battle begins it never truly ends (look at armageddon)

4) Orks do have the most territory, IOM is smaller than all ork claims but it is much less unified and that is all.

5) thousands of orks dying must be a slow day in the galaxy if billions aren't dying each day then life must be boring... that said tho; look at how small of an impact it's had on our footprint and presence.

6) Orks are nearly identical resistance levels to blanks for the terms of possession ect not better and not exactly on par either but this means orks more or less an immune race (as if almost all badguy factions); those who act weird are simply killed; largest threat for demonic incursions in orkish life is weirdboyz. which are kept away from the tribes and guarded by a few boyz who are told by their boss to kill him at a moment's notice. If this isn't nearly complete control over that whole mutants, heretics and unsanctioned psykers then... well i dunno what you are hoping to prove other than "rare" circumstances being more resistant than a mundane ork. If you need more proof read our codex it's too late and I'm too tired to find more references.

Simply put, you might see orks as the chodes of the universe but the Imperium doesn't take Orks lightly because they represent a very real threat to the IOM... Sustained attacks, tapped resources and continued esclation of war in the sectors they appear. Once orks fight a battle they will spore up and effectively continue to only become a more and more belligerent problem for the IOM until the clans amass enough orks and clever bosses to take over a world, especially when space faring orks crash land on a planet and motivate those orks into a WAAAGh with killy technology. Simply put Orks represent the IOM having to face what America calls a natural disaster if they follow battle doctrines and the Codex Astartes they SHOULD be able to weather it much like a hurricane until something like a Hurricane Katrina happens (my apologies if this offends anyone its just a very good analogy).

Once the Orks gain momentum... you lose whole sectors if you adopt the mentality you suggesting. In various books, codexes and video games space marines caution people like you Void Dragon who refer to the orks are weak, simple, savage or weak because the orks will gladly allow you to think that... Until they surprise you and ransack your entire hivecity, and then continent, and then planet, and then sub-sector... and so on until the IOM needs to call the assistance of entire multiple chapters of Space Marines, IG companies and Titans just to tie up the orks.

I don't need to convince you anymore than this, if you choose to think what you do that is fine. I respectfully think you mustn't have read any true info on Waaaghs and urge you to look at this http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Ork_Waaaghs!#.UF6z6VGD-uI

It's a comprehensive list of Orkish waaaghs throughout 40k ... you'll note 28 here. I'd like to ask you to produce a credible list that matches of exceeds these numbers in any other army. Simply put, You can say anything you want but even non-orks know that orks are too massive in the common goal of killing to ever not be considered a threat. The galaxy's only saving grace on this matter is we don't care who we fight so if it's a rogue band of orks we will probably kill them UNTIL we form an army no different than people today really. Unless it's an official army we have gangs all over the place, and would again if we removed the governmental powers that exist at this time.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks are the fodder of 40k

Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

It's a very bold claim to say that the Tyranids don't have comparable numbers to the Orks. Especially when you consider the hordes that have been encountered number in the tens of trillions, and every piece of Tyranid fluff hints that this is only a tiny portion of the main Tyranid population. You can't begin to make such claims when the exact size of the Tyranid population is relatively unknown. However, all fluff provided leads to the idea that it's a sizable force, that could be comparable, if not dwarf, the size of the Ork population.

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks are the fodder of 40k

Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

It's a very bold claim to say that the Tyranids don't have comparable numbers to the Orks. Especially when you consider the hordes that have been encountered number in the tens of trillions, and every piece of Tyranid fluff hints that this is only a tiny portion of the main Tyranid population. You can't begin to make such claims when the exact size of the Tyranid population is relatively unknown. However, all fluff provided leads to the idea that it's a sizable force, that could be comparable, if not dwarf, the size of the Ork population.

I'll agree here but only to the point that Nids are comparably much larger than their presence is at this time. WHAT I WON'T Agree with is that they dwarf orks, this just isn't the case as even the Imperium can't figure out where orks actually "END" they have seen been finding signs of them in the furthest reaches of space with probes launched 30,000 years ago traveling in 1 direction this continuous time. So if anything Nids will match orks in size is the best I would give them but they are mindlessly roaming in all directions toward and away from any and all directions until they start to run into heavy resistance so... i dunno.

Point is I would say until GW stops hinting and starts "SAYING" Orks are still the most numerous cause it's VERY well documented in our codex at this time and not amazingly well in your own. Still I wouldn't want to fight the entire swarm ever their size is an unknown tho i just don't think enough to dwarf the Orkish issue. I'm not sure what would but that would come closest for sure.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks have the largest population in the galaxy. That does not make them the dominant force.

No, what makes them the dominant force in the galaxy is that they own most of the galaxy. Ork infighting isn't a sign of weakness. It's proof that Orks have so little to worry about that they aren't actually harmed by fighting each other. In fact, it makes them stronger. You're looking at it from a perspective from humanity, but that's the wrong perspective . Orks breed through war. When an Ork warband fights another warband, even if both of them get slaughtered, several warbands more of Orks will be spawned as a result, and the ones that survived are bigger ,better ,stronger, and smarter anyway because of the physical growth caused by the fighting.

So it's a win-win situation for the Ork race. Of COURSE they have infighting, but that's not actually a mark against them considering their biology and psychology. The worst thing that could happen to the Orks is that they stop fighting and have peace, and in fact, any Ork empire that is peaceful is WEAK. The longer an Ork empire is fighting, the stronger it is, making Ork empires that have gone through vicious bloody wars some of the most powerful in the galaxy.

Orks aren't merely "fodder". Orks are the endless barbarians at the gates, with some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy (in many ways exceeding the Necrons). They own huge swaths of space, and in fact have so much of it that in many sectors, there is no one to fight but other Orks. They are the unstoppable horde that Tyranids wish they were.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

I'll agree here but only to the point that Nids are comparably much larger than their presence is at this time. WHAT I WON'T Agree with is that they dwarf orks, this just isn't the case as even the Imperium can't figure out where orks actually "END" they have seen been finding signs of them in the furthest reaches of space with probes launched 30,000 years ago traveling in 1 direction this continuous time. So if anything Nids will match orks in size is the best I would give them but they are mindlessly roaming in all directions toward and away from any and all directions until they start to run into heavy resistance so... i dunno.

Hyperbole and mistaken reference about the probe.

Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and it hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter despair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish.

p. 10, 2nd edition Ork Codex

Circumnavigating is not traveling in 1 direction the whole time. Also strictly speaking it doesn't comment about the population of Orks, just that they are widespread if their signals can be detected so frequently.

The number of Tyranids (at least at the edge of the galaxy) is given by:

A billion times a billion Tyranids stand at the rim of the galaxy yet each one is no more than a single cell in the living body of the hive mind, the devourer of worlds.
(2nd edition Tyranid Codex, p. 4)

That is 10^18 or a million trillion.

By comparison:

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion (3rd edition 40K rulebook, p. 114). The 5th edition rulebook on p. 115 estimates there to be 3.238 * 10^4 or 32,380 hive worlds in the Imperium. If all 1,000,000 worlds of the Imperium were hive worlds with 500 billion people that is 5 * 10^17. That is an UPPER limit for the Imperium's population because we know that not all worlds are maximum population hive worlds.

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion

False. Several sources have had worlds with populations in the trillions.

Humans are capable of populations in the trillions concentrated on a single planet. Humans are capable of this. Orks are far more populous than humans, and every single Ork is a powerful, durable combatant. And that's not even counting the grots.

 Melissia wrote:

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion

False. Several sources have had worlds with populations in the trillions.

Quote your source.

I have quoted mine already.

Iracundus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion

False. Several sources have had worlds with populations in the trillions.

Quote your source.

I have quoted mine already.

Necroumunda comes to mind.

As for my statements on the ORk population, the 40k rulebook has an image here:



Look in the upper right. Ork territory is measured in density, because Orks dominate so much of the galaxy that they're ubiquitous.

 Melissia wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

The Hive Worlds of the Imperium are classed as having upper limit population of 500 billion

False. Several sources have had worlds with populations in the trillions.

Quote your source.

I have quoted mine already.

Necroumunda comes to mind.

That is not a quoted population figure. Making vague reference to a planet is not a citation nor quote. If you refer to a specific publication, quote it with page number please.

As for my statements on the ORk population, the 40k rulebook has an image here:



Look in the upper right. Ork territory is measured in density, because Orks dominate so much of the galaxy that they're ubiquitous.

Also not a population figure. A world with 1 Ork settlement of 10 Orks can still be classified as an Ork world. World number and world density do not necessarily indicate population. A perfect counterexample would be Exodite Eldar. They occupy an indeterminate but not insignificant number of worlds yet their population given their lifestyle is known to be low, though again no numbers are given.

You made a claim there are sources showing trillions per world. I am still waiting for such a quoted source.

Also not a population figure. A world with 1 Ork settlement of 10 Orks can still be classified as an Ork world.

Nothing more than desperate reaching.

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks have the largest population in the galaxy. That does not make them the dominant force.

No, what makes them the dominant force in the galaxy is that they own most of the galaxy.

And I suppose ants are the dominant species on Earth because they outnumber humans a thousand to one. Again, you're making a red-herring.

Ork infighting isn't a sign of weakness. It's proof that Orks have so little to worry about that they aren't actually harmed by fighting each other.

Tell that to the Orks at Octavius, who literally got embarrassed and became the laughing stocks of the Galaxy when a single hive ship's worth of nids managed to take out an entire planet of orks simply by assassinating the warboss, which resulted in the orks losing all unity and fighting amongst one-another even while the Tyranids were bearing down on them.

Ork in-fighting is a sign of their latent stupidity and ADHD-complex. They're willing to kill each other even while a mutual threat is ripping them to shreds.

Orks aren't merely "fodder". Orks are the endless barbarians at the gates, with some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy (in many ways exceeding the Necrons). They own huge swaths of space, and in fact have so much of it that in many sectors, there is no one to fight but other Orks. They are the unstoppable horde that Tyranids wish they were.

Orks are that one race that Marenus Calgar slaughtered hundreds if not thousands of all by himself while defending a gate for a full day and night. Orks are the race that are manipulated into being used as mere meatshields by the Eldar and Dark Eldar more often than any other faction. Orks are the race who's sole greatest achievement in all of WH40K fluff is almost taking over Armageddon.

They're fodder. Mere pests except for Gazzy. The only reason they own huge swaths of the Galaxy is because their reproductive methods make exterminating them a tedious task that requires lots of resources, and all of the other factions in the Galaxy are too busy fighting real threats (the Tyranids, "The Greatest Threat" Chaos, the Necrons), to be bothered expending valuable manpower and equipment destroying Ork empires out in the far reaches of the Galaxy, which seem to be content fighting themselves anyway.

I think Chaos probably has more power than Orks, but I also think that the Orks will ever be defeated. They can be driven back, but they'll never go extinct. Besides, the Orks have already won.

They have what they want; a galaxy of warfare. Chaos may be stronger than them, but it doesn't have what it wants. The Eldar may be smarter and more 'enlightened', but they certainly don't have what they want. And the Tyranids may be eating up vast swathes of the galaxy, but they'll never have what they want; part of their nature is that they are incapable of satisfaction.

That's one thing I definitely agree with- Orks enjoy their lives a lot more than any of the other races. On the other hand though, it's not as if Orks have any form of free-will when deciding their interests. They're genetically bred to not enjoy anything besides violence and warfare. That being the case, I don't really view them as "superior" to the other races because of their happiness, anymore than I would say that a squirrel is superior to humanity because it's content with its life. Squirrel's merely follow their instincts; they're incapable of envisioning a life where they do anything different.

 Melissia wrote:

Also not a population figure. A world with 1 Ork settlement of 10 Orks can still be classified as an Ork world.

Nothing more than desperate reaching.

In other words, you have no quotable proof. Thought so. My citation provides explicit numbers and is not reliant on hyperbolic interpretations.

Not reaching in the least . I have provided counterexamples and there is even a more specific one. Angelis, otherwise known as the world setting of the game GorkaMorka. A single settlement "Ork world". So much for the claim of "trillions" on a single world. No one denies Orks are numerous but there is that and there is fanboy hyperbole.

As so often happens, when someone bristles at being asked to provide proof, it is often indicative they don't have it.

Iracundus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Also not a population figure. A world with 1 Ork settlement of 10 Orks can still be classified as an Ork world.

Nothing more than desperate reaching.

In other words, you have no quotable proof. Thought so. My citation provides explicit numbers and is not reliant on hyperbolic interpretations.

Not reaching in the least . I have provided counterexamples and there is even a more specific one. Angelis, otherwise known as the world setting of the game GorkaMorka. A single settlement "Ork world". So much for the claim of "trillions" on a single world. No one denies Orks are numerous but there is that and there is fanboy hyperbole.

As so often happens, when someone bristles at being asked to provide proof, it is often indicative they don't have it.

Okay you know what? Fine reference time.... cause this is stupid to keep arguing cause it's about the only universal truth of 40k... but here ya go I am going drown you in references in our codex, BRB, and Lexicanum as well as stories within other codexes today to prove one simple fact that every Ork player and nearly every NON-ORK PLAYER knows. For some reason tho nids always want to head but on this... And I'm not sure why... because Lovecraftian style foreshadowing of "endless hordes beyond the reach of the galaxy" is great and all but it's as vague a reference as you can get while I'll be providing black and white references.

Codex Orks: Pg 3 " Introduction) How the codex Works: The Ork Race"

... It includes details of their origins, the lesser green-skinned races, and the SYSTEM WIDE INVASIONS the orks call Waaagh

Codex Orks: Pg 4 " The Ork Race) 1st paragraph"

Orks are the most war-like aliens in the 41st millennium, AND THEIR NUMBER IS BEYOND COUNTING. From the depths of the Galactic Core, to the distant Ghost Stars burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. SHOULD THE ORKS TRULY UNIFY, THE WOULD CRUSH ALL OPPOSITION AND DROWN THE CIVILIZED RACES IN A TIDE OF GORE. ... WHEN THE ORKS ARE ON THE RAMPAGE THE GALAXY TREMBLES

Codex Orks: Pg 4 " The Ork Race) 6th paragraph"

This unshakable self-belief is perhaps the most dangerous quality of the Ork Race, FOR THEY WILL NEVER GIVE UP ON THEIR MISSION TO PLUNGE THE GALAXY INTO ETERNAL WAR.

[b]Codex Orks: Pg 8 "Greenskin KULTUR )1st paragraph, The Ork Heirarchy"

... A Warboss holds dominion over all he surveys, and beat the living daylights out of anyone who says different.

Codex Orks: Pg 8 "Greenskin KULTUR" ) Flavor text

The orks are the pinnacel of creation. For them, The great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have fail, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And Why? Because we sought answers to the questions that wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude. - Uthan the Preserve, Eldar Philosopher

Codex Orks: Pg 11 "The Nature of the Beast ) 2nd paragraph

The Orks reproduce by the dispersal of spores that settle and mature over time. An Ork's demise triggers a mass release of spores that can develop into dozens of cocoons. Through these cocoons may hatch gretchin, snotlings, of just simple fungus depending on the conditions, a good number will mature into fully grown Orks after a short gestation period. These spores are dispersed far and wide by the wind, which makes the eradication of the greenskin presence from the contaminated warzone impossible to affect with anything short of the cleansing firestorm of EXTERMINATUS.

Few ork spores will come to rest in remote zones where no other orks dwell; dense jungles and arid deserts where normal civilizations find it difficult to survive. The Spores rapidly infest the area without threat of discovery. Over a relatively short period of time, the Ork Hatchlings band together into loose tribes. Sometimes known as Wildboyz, these groups will seek out and unite with the parent warband. There they learn about Ork Kultur and take their place in the warrior society, exchanging spear and ax for slugga and choppa. [b]However, should the new tribe mature on a world where the ork ancestors have been driven off or slain, the Wildboyz will instead develop into a tribe of feral Orks.

At first, Feral Ork Tribes are little threat to the planet they infest. They are uncivilized, even by the low standards of their Ork breathen. Feral orks live by the old ways of hunting and exploring. As their tribes increase in size, they breed even larger variants of squig, riding around on great tusked beast that vary in size to a grox, to a megadon. Exploring the stomping grounds of their predecessors, the feral Orks soon learn to scavenge weapons and equipment, rejoicing in the noise and destruction they cause with their new toys. Shortly after this discovery the tribe mobilizes for war, whooping and hollering as they pour out of the mountains or jungles, flinging themselves into the settlements of unsuspecting enemies and starting the cycle of warfare afresh. ONCE A WORLD IS INFECTED WITH ORK SPORES IT IS FOREVER LOCKED IN AN ENDLESS CYCLE OF VIOLENCE AND MADNESS.

[b]Codex Orks: Pg 18 "The Savage Stars 1st - 3rd paragraph

ORKS LIVE ON INNUMERABLE WORLDS. ON SOME THEY DOMINATE COMPLETELY, ON OTHERS THEY LIVE IN A STATE OF PERPETUAL WAR, AND ON OTHERS STILL THEY ACT AS SLAVE MASTERS BULLYING THE LOCAL POPULATIONS INTO DOING THEIR BIDDING. ACROSS THE ENTIRE GALAXY THEIR ARE ORK REALMS, ORK EMPIRES, AND ORK HORDES THAT ROAM THE STARS UPON GIGANTIC SPACE HULKS. WHEREVER HUMANS HAVE TRAVELED THEY HAVE FOUND ORKS. IT HAS BEEN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS SINCE HUMANITY HAS ENCOUNTERED THE ORKS, AND IN THAT TIME MANKIND HAS FOUGHT COUNTLESS BLOODY WARS AGAINST THESE SAVAGE ALIENS. THERE IS NO LIKELIHOOD THAT THIS STATE OF AFFAIRS WILL CHANGE.

[b]MILLENNIA AGO, A PROBE WAS SENT OUT FROM TERRA, IT'S MISSION TO REACH THE UPMOST LIMIT OF THE UNIVERSE. THE TECH PRIESTS WHO BUILT IT HOPED THAT IT WOULD SOMEDAY RETURN TO IT'S PLACE OF ORIGIN. THE PROBE STILL SENDS BACK FAINT SINGALS AFTER 14,000 YEARS ADRIFT. TO THE UTTER DISPAR OF THE IMPERIAL TECH PRIESTS WHO MONITOR THE INCESSANT BATTERY OF INCOMING SIGNALS, MANY ARE IDENTIFIED AS ORKISH. THE DEPRESSING CONCLUSION FOR MANKIND CAN ONLY BE THAT WHEREVER THEY TRAVEL IN SPACE, THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THAT THE ORKS WILL EITHER HAVE BEEN THERE FIRST OR WON'T BE LONG IN ARRIVING.

THE ORK EMPIRES STRECH ACROSS THE GALAXY LIKE A GREEN STAIN. NO SYSTEM IS ENTIRELY DEVOID OF THEIR TOUCH.[/b]

(more to come when i have time), any disputes so far?)

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Darth Bob wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Orks are the fodder of 40k

Orks are the dominant force in the galaxy.

No faction-- no, not the Imperium, no, not Tyranids, no, not Chaos-- holds as much territory and has as large a military force as Orks.

It's a very bold claim to say that the Tyranids don't have comparable numbers to the Orks. Especially when you consider the hordes that have been encountered number in the tens of trillions, and every piece of Tyranid fluff hints that this is only a tiny portion of the main Tyranid population. You can't begin to make such claims when the exact size of the Tyranid population is relatively unknown. However, all fluff provided leads to the idea that it's a sizable force, that could be comparable, if not dwarf, the size of the Ork population.

I'll agree here but only to the point that Nids are comparably much larger than their presence is at this time. WHAT I WON'T Agree with is that they dwarf orks, this just isn't the case as even the Imperium can't figure out where orks actually "END" they have seen been finding signs of them in the furthest reaches of space with probes launched 30,000 years ago traveling in 1 direction this continuous time. So if anything Nids will match orks in size is the best I would give them but they are mindlessly roaming in all directions toward and away from any and all directions until they start to run into heavy resistance so... i dunno.

Point is I would say until GW stops hinting and starts "SAYING" Orks are still the most numerous cause it's VERY well documented in our codex at this time and not amazingly well in your own. Still I wouldn't want to fight the entire swarm ever their size is an unknown tho i just don't think enough to dwarf the Orkish issue. I'm not sure what would but that would come closest for sure.

The Tyranids aren't just mindlessly wandering the universe in all directions. They're all heading towards one place. Terra. They're being drawn to the Astronomincan like a moth to a light. Every last Tyranid in the universe is being drawn in. They're coming to this Galaxy. Every last one.


Edit: As for the post above me, that's not really a valid argument when you consider it's all from the Ork Codex. Every Codex makes the faction its about seem like the most powerful threat in the universe.

Iracundus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Also not a population figure. A world with 1 Ork settlement of 10 Orks can still be classified as an Ork world.

Nothing more than desperate reaching.

In other words, you have no quotable proof.

Nah, I have it. I just don't care to respond to people who don't actually care about the fluff and just want to ignorantly bash Orks/whatever faction, like you.

The thread's question has been answered. This conversation is becoming inane "my faction is better than yours" babble, so I think I'll find a different one.