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Also, there is this story...

Black Library wrote:
Distant Echos of Old Night
by Rob Sanders

Death Guard Chaplain Murnau hunts a small force of Imperial Fists on a forest moon. As his foes elude him, he unleashes one of his Legion's most terrifying weapons: the Destroyers.

Emphasis mine

Though this one is from a book perhaps already written with 6th Edition in mind.

Hmm, so a Chaplain is fine but the issue is with the name Dark Apostle as it does appear to be a previous Word Bearers only term

IA: Word Bearers: Each of Lorgar's champions have become an amalgamation of brutal war leader and divinely inspired preacher of Chaos known as a Dark Apostle. Each is gifted an army roughly equivalent to a Space Marine Chapter, known as a Host, and these armies have proven to be deadly raiding forces against the Imperium.

The Word Bearers are the only Traitor Legion to still observe codes of religion in the form of their Dark Apostles, and under them have retained a strict regimen of blasphemous prayer and evil devotion that fills much of their time.

The Word Bearers follow the words of their Dark Apostles with utter loyalty and faith in battle, and they in turn interpret the will of Lorgar by many and varied means.

Often these chants will be answered and it is common for the Word Bearers to fight alongside hideous daemonic entities that have made diabolical pacts with the Dark Apostles.

Well. Change the name if that's what bothers you.

I can take Techmarines/MoTF and call them Iron Fathers. I can take Sternguard and call them Tyranid War Veterans. I can take Lysander and call him Bob, Captain of the 1st Company of the Singing Eagles chapter. I can take Blood Angels and call them Lamenters. Etc.., etc..

It's just a name that sounded cooler than 'Chaos Space Marines Chaplain' or "Evil Space Marine Preacher'.

What's in a name?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well. Change the name if that's what bothers you.

I can take Techmarines/MoTF and call them Iron Fathers. I can take Sternguard and call them Tyranid War Veterans. I can take Lysander and call him Bob, Captain of the 1st Company of the Singing Eagles chapter. I can take Blood Angels and call them Lamenters. Etc.., etc..

It's just a name that sounded cooler than 'Chaos Space Marines Chaplain' or "Evil Space Marine Preacher'.

What's in a name?

It doesn't really bother me as I won't be taking one, I can see though where people might not like the idea that the Word Bearers have lost something that was specific to them and in a way, summed up their legion.

If it doesn't matter what they are named, why not make up a new name for them entirely.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Well. Change the name if that's what bothers you.

I can take Techmarines/MoTF and call them Iron Fathers. I can take Sternguard and call them Tyranid War Veterans. I can take Lysander and call him Bob, Captain of the 1st Company of the Singing Eagles chapter. I can take Blood Angels and call them Lamenters. Etc.., etc..

It's just a name that sounded cooler than 'Chaos Space Marines Chaplain' or "Evil Space Marine Preacher'.

What's in a name?

It doesn't really bother me as I won't be taking one, I can see though where people might not like the idea that the Word Bearers have lost something that was specific to them and in a way, summed up their legion.

If it doesn't matter what they are named, why not make up a new name for them entirely.

Their Legion?

I wasn't happy when Ultramarines were no longer the only ones who could take HQ in Terminator Armour, Attack Bikes or Landspeeders (pesky copy-cat Angels of Death). But times change. It's the way it is. If you want things to stay as they are, you should probably stop buying new books .

Seriously, if I am asked to shell out 30 quid for a new book, I want them to shake things up. I certainly don't want to pay 30 GBP to read things I already know.


Besides, there was just as many complaints that the MotF was not[ called an Iron Father and (by implication) Iron Hands supposedly got short-changed with the 5th Edition Marine book.

Either way, someone will bitch about it. Really a no-win situation.

 Zweischneid wrote:


Their Legion?

Their Legion as in the Dark Apostles belonging to the Word Bearers.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I wasn't happy when Ultramarines were no longer the only ones who could take HQ in Terminator Armour, Attack Bikes or Landspeeders (pesky copy-cat Angels of Death). But times change. It's the way it is. If you want things to stay as they are, you should probably stop buying new books .

No one is saying that change isn't bad, at least I am not. You need change to spice things up, but some things can be changed for the worse. Not saying that this is one of those, but it does happen. We don't know what the specific entry for the Dark Apostle is yet, it might provide why the Dark Apostle is not just a Word Bearer thing now. Or it might be the case with some alternative explanation.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Seriously, if I am asked to shell out 30 quid for a new book, I want them to shake things up. I certainly don't want to pay 30 GBP to read things I already know.

You don't necessarily need to change something entirely though do you, you can tweak it to make it better and if you change everything all the time, what is the point of having an established background.

If Thousand Sons became monkeys riding unicycles that fired gak bombs from their asses would that be a change for the better?

 Zweischneid wrote:

Either way, someone will bitch about it. Really a no-win situation.

Agreed.

 Zweischneid wrote:
/shrug

It's not how I read it. I think you are stretching the concept of "devoutness" and "worship" to the point where it's meaningless. Take characters like the Exalted in Soul Hunter. He's literally a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch, more or less. But he certainly doesn't worship him in any way. I don't think he even mentions the Chaos God in the entire book. He keeps saying Chaos is his servant and that the Chaos Gods are so in awe of him that they bestow him with powers.

Of course his mistaken and a servant of Chaos. But he is an unwitting servant of Chaos, lured in by the Dark Gods giving him power like a fixer giving you a free taste of drugs to get you hooked. Worship doesn't play a role there. Devoutness even less so.

Hell, the entire Dark Eldar race basically do nothing but serve Slannesh unwittingly (indulging in obscene pleasures and pains) as a very conscious act of not serving and denying Slannesh.

Ahriman doesn't "worship" Tzeentch. Like many Chaos Sorcerers, he believes himself to be smarter than Tzeentch.

What I'd call exceptions to the rule.

So, since this is a thing, I'm thinking of doing a World Eaters Dark Apostle for my army.

Would it just be a pile of skulls with legs?

 -Loki- wrote:
So, since this is a thing, I'm thinking of doing a World Eaters Dark Apostle for my army.

Would it just be a pile of skulls with legs?

I somehow suspect it would also have 4 chainaxes and lead by example...

Dark Apostles are naturally Word Bearers. I don't see Thousand Sons ever dressing like that.

 CuddlySquig wrote:
Dark Apostles are naturally Word Bearers. I don't see Thousand Sons ever dressing like that.

You can almost use the same logic with the warpsmith and Iron Warriors.

Angry(er) chaplains can easily be in almost any chaos army. I agree that the model itself points heavily to Word Bearer influence, however, one can easily just convert a more legion specific one.

Warpsmiths are a new thing never established as solely Iron Warriors. They just specialize in constructing Daemon engines, which all Legions use.

Dark Apostles have been synonymous with Word Bearers for over a decade.

Thus, almost. Never said Warpsmith = Iron Warriors

I fully agree that Dark Apostles are Word Bearer strictly, since it has been slammed into our faces harder than a sack full of doorknobs. It may just be a poor foresight naming decision in the end. Having only the information in the new WD and from the website.. well... /shrugs

Call them Keepers of the Dark Faith for other Legions, Dark Apostles for Word Bearers.

 One Old Dragon wrote:

I agree that the model itself points heavily to Word Bearer influence, however, one can easily just convert a more legion specific one.

That is my biggest point, the model is far too specific. Look at him. He's a Word Bearer. And though the idea of a chaos chaplain can work in more than the Word Bearers, there are some legions it just doesn't mesh with.

 CuddlySquig wrote:

 One Old Dragon wrote:

I agree that the model itself points heavily to Word Bearer influence, however, one can easily just convert a more legion specific one.

That is my biggest point, the model is far too specific. Look at him. He's a Word Bearer. And though the idea of a chaos chaplain can work in more than the Word Bearers, there are some legions it just doesn't mesh with.

Like Thousand Sons. Hard to inspire dust in tin cans..

I mean a separate model completely than the Dark Apostle model. For the longest time, my Chaos sorcs were just plague marine models with GS robes and chained nurgling familiars.

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, it is unfortunate that a beautiful model like the Dark Apostle simply would not fit properly in another army without saying he is a Word Bearer trying to inspire Emperor's Children with paper and harsh words.

 CuddlySquig wrote:

 One Old Dragon wrote:

I agree that the model itself points heavily to Word Bearer influence, however, one can easily just convert a more legion specific one.

That is my biggest point, the model is far too specific. Look at him. He's a Word Bearer. And though the idea of a chaos chaplain can work in more than the Word Bearers, there are some legions it just doesn't mesh with.

Sure there are some Legions where he won't fit. Just as there are some Legions (or Warbands) where a Sorcerer won't fit or some Legion's (or Warbands) where Chaos Space Marine Bikes might not fit.

I don't think it is obligatory to take a Dark Apostle. But there are certainly more Legions (or Warbands) where he could fit than just the Word Bearers.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If Thousand Sons became monkeys riding unicycles that fired gak bombs from their asses would that be a change for the better?

It certainly would have helped them on Prospero. gak bombs are immune to Sisters of Silence.

Should be noted that the current fluff on Dark Apostles is further changing who they are. They are now described as inspirational speakers whose fiery speeches have entire Imperial worlds rise up to rebellion. This really is fairly contradictory to their older accounts of keepers of the faith in the Word Bearers, old Dark Apostles probably didn't give a gak about humans. This new role seems similar to the Apostate Preachers Forgeworld had in the Siege of Vraks. Should have just been them.

I believe that in Fulgrim there is a reference of an emperors Children Chaplain.

But let's ignore that.

Let's assume I don't play a Legion. I play a renegade Chapter. Why would that option be taken from me? Am I restricted in taking that option just because only a Legion is supposed to have Chaplains?... My renegade Chapter had Chaplains.

Dark Apostles are a useful part of the priest hood. They may be ancient Legion chaplains or they may be freshly turned renegades. The opportunity to have them is essential,

Thus an army can have the opportunity to tailor their army list to fit whatever fluff reason they like.
Whereas before a WB couldn't take a Dark apostle. Now they can and have that option available to them to make a fluffy and themed force. Equally they may want a Word bearer techmarine or coryphaerus. You have those options also.

By adding restrictions and ommiting units from crtain lists lessons all the legions. Tailor your force however you want, but don't begrudge say an Alpha Legion force corrupting the faithful, or renegade chapters from equally very fluff backgrounds.

 Harriticus wrote:
Should be noted that the current fluff on Dark Apostles is further changing who they are. They are now described as inspirational speakers whose fiery speeches have entire Imperial worlds rise up to rebellion. This really is fairly contradictory to their older accounts of keepers of the faith in the Word Bearers, old Dark Apostles probably didn't give a gak about humans. This new role seems similar to the Apostate Preachers Forgeworld had in the Siege of Vraks. Should have just been them.

Yes, but GW is stupid with their naming conventions. Thanks for bringing up Vraks, though, from now on I'll refer to non-WB Dark Apostles as Apostate Preachers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eetion wrote:
I believe that in Fulgrim there is a reference of an emperors Children Chaplain.

But let's ignore that.

Let's assume I don't play a Legion. I play a renegade Chapter. Why would that option be taken from me? Am I restricted in taking that option just because only a Legion is supposed to have Chaplains?... My renegade Chapter had Chaplains.

Dark Apostles are a useful part of the priest hood. They may be ancient Legion chaplains or they may be freshly turned renegades. The opportunity to have them is essential,

Thus an army can have the opportunity to tailor their army list to fit whatever fluff reason they like.
Whereas before a WB couldn't take a Dark apostle. Now they can and have that option available to them to make a fluffy and themed force. Equally they may want a Word bearer techmarine or coryphaerus. You have those options also.

By adding restrictions and ommiting units from crtain lists lessons all the legions. Tailor your force however you want, but don't begrudge say an Alpha Legion force corrupting the faithful, or renegade chapters from equally very fluff backgrounds.

I think people are mostly upset at the naming convention.

I am all for the new 40K's modus operandi of minimal restrictions on what you can bring to the field of battle. I am a fan of it, honestly. Sure, people will do stupid stuff and combine things that shouldn't go together fluff-wise, but for every instance of that, I see 10 awesome ideas of fielding something that is both fluff and wasn't possible during GW's more draconian style.

Consider this.

"Plague Marines" originally applied to those Marines who were only from the Death Guard and devoted to Nurgle.

There are now "Plague Marines" in other Legions/Warbands as Cult Troops.

The same thing also goes for Berzerkers.

So why is it so hard for there to be Dark Apostles from other Legions/Warbands?