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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 15:33:26
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Stabbin' Skarboy
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So. We lcouldnt fond this in the FAQ
A basilisk firing turn 1 in night.
BRB pg 30
"Barage weapons may fire indirectly."
BRB pg 107~
"The firing unit cannot target a unit further then 36" away"
As we read it. Barrage weapons can fire at anything within 36" as barrage says nothing about being able to target elsewhere and night fighting says nothing about Bering able to see.
Thoughts?
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The tide is coming
http://alt40k.blogspot.com/ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 15:40:39
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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As long as the original target (before scatter) is 36" or less away you can fire at the target.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 23:14:53
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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Barrage weapons do not need line of sight to fire indirect at a target (p34).
Night Fighting (p124) declares targets over 36" to be "completely hidden".
Line of sight (p8) requires the firer to be able to trace an uninterrupted line to the target, but Night Fighting has declared that the target is completely hidden, therefore, there is no line of sight.
With no line of sight, a Barrage weapon can fire indirect.
Of course, this logic hinges on whether "completely hidden" denies line of sight.
If this is not the case, it is odd that I can stick a Mortar HWS behind a mountain and lob shells indirectly until the cows come home while the sun is up, but as soon as the moon comes out I have to stop.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 23:24:24
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Snapshot wrote:Of course, this logic hinges on whether "completely hidden" denies line of sight.
Completely hidden isn't the important bit. The sentence in bold just before is.
You can't target over 36".
Barrage doesn't need LOS, but the barrage rules clearly state that you need to be able to target the enemy.
You wouldn't shell a position unless you knew something was there.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 23:38:20
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
Onuris Coreworld
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grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote:Of course, this logic hinges on whether "completely hidden" denies line of sight.
Completely hidden isn't the important bit. The sentence in bold just before is.
You can't target over 36".
Barrage doesn't need LOS, but the barrage rules clearly state that you need to be able to target the enemy.
You wouldn't shell a position unless you knew something was there.
Bingo. If you are playing as IG though, just bring some search lights. This allows you to pretty much get past night fighting easy.
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"Most mortals will die from this procedure...and so will you!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/22 23:40:54
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote:Of course, this logic hinges on whether "completely hidden" denies line of sight.
Completely hidden isn't the important bit. The sentence in bold just before is.
You can't target over 36".
Barrage doesn't need LOS, but the barrage rules clearly state that you need to be able to target the enemy.
You wouldn't shell a position unless you knew something was there.
Except that I CAN target units I can't see whenever I want with a Barrage weapon. I do not need to be able to see them; the price I pay is extra scatter.
I re-read the Barrage rules and as far as I can tell it just says I don't need line of sight to fire indirect. Granted, Night Fighting says I can't pick a target over 36", but goes on to explain why - it is completely hidden. If this means I do not have LOS, then my logic stands; if not, it falls down in a screaming heap.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 00:07:00
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Snapshot wrote:[Except that I CAN target units I can't see whenever I want with a Barrage weapon. I do not need to be able to see them; the price I pay is extra scatter.
I re-read the Barrage rules and as far as I can tell it just says I don't need line of sight to fire indirect. Granted, Night Fighting says I can't pick a target over 36", but goes on to explain why - it is completely hidden. If this means I do not have LOS, then my logic stands; if not, it falls down in a screaming heap.
No, you really can't.
Have another read of the barrage rules. You don't need LOS, but you do need to be able to target them.
"...they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to..."
No target, no firing.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 00:58:21
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote:[Except that I CAN target units I can't see whenever I want with a Barrage weapon. I do not need to be able to see them; the price I pay is extra scatter.
I re-read the Barrage rules and as far as I can tell it just says I don't need line of sight to fire indirect. Granted, Night Fighting says I can't pick a target over 36", but goes on to explain why - it is completely hidden. If this means I do not have LOS, then my logic stands; if not, it falls down in a screaming heap.
No, you really can't.
Have another read of the barrage rules. You don't need LOS, but you do need to be able to target them.
"...they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to..."
No target, no firing.
So if a unit is hiding behind a building, I can't lob indirect mortar shells on their head? Confused... Can you point me to the BRB that defines the "target" for me? Cheers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/23 01:01:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 00:59:36
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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The Hive Mind
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You can target things that are out of LoS.
You can not target things farther than 36" during night fighting.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:05:36
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Snapshot wrote: grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote:[Except that I CAN target units I can't see whenever I want with a Barrage weapon. I do not need to be able to see them; the price I pay is extra scatter.
I re-read the Barrage rules and as far as I can tell it just says I don't need line of sight to fire indirect. Granted, Night Fighting says I can't pick a target over 36", but goes on to explain why - it is completely hidden. If this means I do not have LOS, then my logic stands; if not, it falls down in a screaming heap.
No, you really can't.
Have another read of the barrage rules. You don't need LOS, but you do need to be able to target them.
"...they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to..."
No target, no firing.
So if a unit is hiding behind a building, I can't lob indirect mortar shells on their head? Confused...
Yes you can.
Targeting requires 2 things (p12):
In Range,
In Line of Sight.
Barrage allows you to ignore Line of Sight. So your target only needs to be in range.
Night fighting stops you targeting the enemy all together.
If you can find a weapon that doesn't need a target, you could fire over 36" (there's not many of these however).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:21:04
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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rigeld2 wrote:You can target things that are out of LoS.
You can not target things farther than 36" during night fighting.
OK. During the day, I can field my entire army behind a mountain range and bomb the bejesus out of my opponent, even though I don't have LOS to him (from any unit). As soon as the sun goes down, I have to stop pinging the ones at the back of the board?
Don't get me wrong, I completely understand where everyone is coming from with the bold restriction on p124 saying we're not allowed to pick a target further than 36". But I don't think you can selectively ignore the explanatory clause that says "such units are completely hidden in the darkness". I am making an assertion that this means I do not have LOS to them, which gives me the right to indirect fire at them (albeit with worse scatter than direct fire). Others are saying it means more that simply not having LOS. I could buy that if someone could explain why I am allowed to indirect fire on any model (in weapon range) during the day, even if none of my models have LOS to any of my opponents (they are completely hidden to me).
If the BRB had NOT put the explanatory clause about distant targets being completely hidden in, I wouldn't be arguing the point
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:25:59
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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The Hive Mind
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Snapshot wrote:OK. During the day, I can field my entire army behind a mountain range and bomb the bejesus out of my opponent, even though I don't have LOS to him (from any unit). As soon as the sun goes down, I have to stop pinging the ones at the back of the board?
Yes.
Why? Because the rules say so. It's pretty straight forward.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:28:34
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Not all rules make sense.
Barrage still requires a target (page12).
Night Fighting stops targeting.
The reason why it stops targeting doesn't matter, the fact is the rule prevents targeting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:34:27
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote: grendel083 wrote:Snapshot wrote:[Except that I CAN target units I can't see whenever I want with a Barrage weapon. I do not need to be able to see them; the price I pay is extra scatter.
I re-read the Barrage rules and as far as I can tell it just says I don't need line of sight to fire indirect. Granted, Night Fighting says I can't pick a target over 36", but goes on to explain why - it is completely hidden. If this means I do not have LOS, then my logic stands; if not, it falls down in a screaming heap.
No, you really can't.
Have another read of the barrage rules. You don't need LOS, but you do need to be able to target them.
"...they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to..."
No target, no firing.
So if a unit is hiding behind a building, I can't lob indirect mortar shells on their head? Confused...
Yes you can.
Targeting requires 2 things (p12):
In Range,
In Line of Sight.
Barrage allows you to ignore Line of Sight. So your target only needs to be in range.
Night fighting stops you targeting the enemy all together.
If you can find a weapon that doesn't need a target, you could fire over 36" (there's not many of these however).
You interpret the Night Fighting rule as a restriction on weapon range, preventing target selection. I've interpreted it as a LOS issue because of the explanatory note. I'd love GW to FAQ this to put me back in my box.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:40:44
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Snapshot wrote:You interpret the Night Fighting rule as a restriction on weapon range, preventing target selection. I've interpreted it as a LOS issue because of the explanatory note. I'd love GW to FAQ this to put me back in my box.
No I didn't, it's not a range restriction at all.
Targeting needs range and LOS.
Night Fighting stops targeting, so range and LOS doesn't even come into it. The whole targeting process is simply not allowed.
Ignoring LOS makes no difference if you're not even allowed to target in the first place.
This is layed out on page 12.
Shooting requires a target and a weapon.
If something stops you from shooting, it doesn't matter if an ability lets you shoot without a weapon. You simply can't shoot.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/23 01:46:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:57:09
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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I buy the argument. I just wish Night Fighting didn't hint that the reason for the 36" restriction was linked to your ability to see the target.
Thanks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 01:59:50
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Just think of it as nobody in your army knows they are there and can tell the artillery to start bombing them if your going on the fluff
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/09/23 02:04:33
Subject: Barrage v night fighting.
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Dakka Veteran
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I'm definitely in the RAW camp when it comes to rules; fluffy interpretations are good for narrative, but I always figure that GW used the words in the books they wanted to use; sometimes they can cause a bit of confusion though :-)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/23 02:04:50
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