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2012/10/01 22:26:36
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
Of course! as of now Chinese did really have a long range anti warship missile that seems to have similar size as (and maybe compatible with the existing Weishi rocket artillery). China might as well sell it (or production license) to lesser client states. As of now Turkey and Thailand got the production license (or actually purchase the whole products of) of Weishi system. (in case of Royal Thai Army. it is a response to Cambodge BM21 Grad MLRS)
IF one says that this missile is compatible with Submarine launching tubes. then the missile is submersible too!!!! a smart design to completely avoid Phalances
^ RTA Weishi MLRS (I don't understand why the commander in chief choose to buy a massive Weishi system.. which it is a crossbreed between SCUD and BM21. does Weishi really outranges BM21?)
^ Chinese antiship missile, and a launching truck which appears to be any typical ten wheeler (รถสิบล้อ). the missile might as well compatible with Weishi launch tubes.
if the said missile can outrange the carrier (How could it be!)
1. It means that Carrier as we've know may be obsolette. unless the new naval fighter jet have the same range do the odds evened.
one of a possible alternative is to place manned fighter jets into secondary lines and convert every Pacific fleet carriers into UAV compatible (the Navy seems to be working on this project already, developing UAVs that fles very far), and the new carrier being assembled must be reconfigurated to fit the new weapons.
2. For China and its client states. Will the interests in Palmerston-style fort (with the new antiship missile batteries installed instead of old naval guns) renewed?
3. Is there any possibility that the new Battleship will be built and it can beat those missile thing? Is it possible for US-Navy to perfect its anti-ship missile to be small enough to fit in Battleship turret mount and yet. fly as far as those Chinese ones or outranges it?
4. And is it possible to build a missile cruiser that replace both Battleships and Carriers? (and faster)
L
.
Spoiler'd cause long.
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
In short, SLCM does not an SSBN make.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2012/10/01 23:05:37
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
In short, SLCM does not an SSBN make.
More, SLCM does not a carrier killer make. Even high speed SLCMs are gonna have issues with CIWS and EW suites. Torpedoes on the the other hand have a whole variety of issues on their own from decoys and the like to the ever popular "Shoot the thing!"
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
In short, SLCM does not an SSBN make.
But does it make a SSGN? The answer is yes and yet none of our SSNs have reclassified, just the boomers. We have a silly navy(yes I know why they aren't bothering to reclassify the SSN hulls)
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/02 01:31:40
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
More, SLCM does not a carrier killer make. Even high speed SLCMs are gonna have issues with CIWS and EW suites. Torpedoes on the the other hand have a whole variety of issues on their own from decoys and the like to the ever popular "Shoot the thing!"
Don't forget the ever popular torpedo bulge.
A 16 inch shell, however, once it's on it''s way, it's on it's way, you just have to get in range.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2012/10/02 01:39:24
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
In short, SLCM does not an SSBN make.
But does it make a SSGN? The answer is yes and yet none of our SSNs have reclassified, just the boomers. We have a silly navy(yes I know why they aren't bothering to reclassify the SSN hulls)
I actually agree with the SSBN/SSGN/SSN distinctions but that's just me. The latter of the three hulls is completely different for one and designed for an entirely different purpose then just wandering around as a stealthy missile barge like the former two no matter what they're carrying.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Just because a missile can be sublaunched does not make the missile submersible, that would make it a torpedo as opposed to a missile. Sub launched missiles consist of a booster phase that gets them out of the water and then the standard weapon system from there. The American Harpoon and Tomahawk can be launched in this way as well as all versions of US Sub launched ICBMs.
In short, SLCM does not an SSBN make.
But does it make a SSGN? The answer is yes and yet none of our SSNs have reclassified, just the boomers. We have a silly navy(yes I know why they aren't bothering to reclassify the SSN hulls)
I actually agree with the SSBN/SSGN/SSN distinctions but that's just me. The latter of the three hulls is completely different for one and designed for an entirely different purpose then just wandering around as a stealthy missile barge like the former two no matter what they're carrying.
I actually do too but the point is OUR navy came up with SSGN and withing OUR structure we RN SSNs SSGNs, but not so our SSNs with VLS. At the Very least the last flight of Los Angeles boats and the Virginia boats should be classed SSN(G) because they have dedicated launch systems for cruise missiles instead of tube launching them like the older LAs and Seawolfs. It's an internecine web but at the end of the day I think USN needs to split the SSGN designation into guided missle attack and guided missile ballistic. It's super nitpicky but that kind of defines military intelligence.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/02 04:29:47
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/02 08:40:53
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Auston, you're right, the original discussion was about the carrier, but discussing a possible Chinese invasion of Taiwan makes for a more engaging debate.
Anyway, as China grows, and America declines, such an invasion grows likely. American memories of Vietnam are likely to make the USA reluctant to get involved IMO.
Anyway, just like the battle of Midway, Admiral Ackbar's Royal Navy taskforce would save the day
Fair enough.
I don't agree about the prospects of PRChina invading ROChina. China is kind of in a tight spot, they've made no secret of their enmity with Russia or India plus a host of smaller nations, but should the PRC try to expand on land including Taiwan, expect one or more of her modern enemies to rip into her with a quickness. The Indians and Russians are just waiting to smell blood in the water. Russia especially needs/wants a military victory to parade around for another 50 years of decay.
If India will declare war against Chian on the reasons of Tibet oppression. (and its concerns over Chinese dominance over its neighbours, Pakistan and Nepal. now all tibetans are denied entry to Nepal and will be sent to Chinese 'slaughterhouse' where they're at the (extremely limited) mercy of Han slaver)
What are the reasons the new Russia to go to war agaisnt China?
A. somewhere outside the two countries. Chinese merchantress did a catfight match against Russian modelswoman (This is unlikely meow. just for fun meow.)
B. Xinjiang/Eastern Turkmenistan. Through the years. Chinese oppressed them. and villify them as barbarians. (while call themself 'the only civilized people on earth')
C. Inner Mongolia; I don't think those Mongols have anything against Han masters.
D. Another lifeless rock(s) floating between the borders of the two countries. Through the years. Russia did try to avoid a useless war against China. to the point of making a deal, dropping its claims over one dispuited isle to China. i can't remember the name of the isle but it may not be so significant to keep it.
E. Russian gangs (which it seems to be Moscow fifth column elsewhere) VS Triads. and either of the two seized 'secret military hardware' of the opposites.
F. PRC officials 'henked' russians "without proper reasons"
G. Russian gangs kidnapped, harrassed, or killed Chinese citizen or the descendants of the Chinese on foreign soil. this happens in Pattaya. where Russian wants to create its lil Tsardom there once the've replaced Germans and Americans as a dominant foreign gangster power.
H. an unidentified Pirate raids Chinese merchant ships and later. counter piracy taskforce dispatched by the PRC rescued the crew, and ship. also uncovered a secret order from Moscow amongs the pirate.
I. Sino - Indian war (as described above), Russia will claim its 'protector' status over India and declares war against China.
J. Else....?
Bwahahah I just read that India's Russian carrier suffered a massive propulsion failure on trials in mid September, and delivery is now delayed another 10 months while Sevmash cuts out 7 of her 8 boilers to replace them.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/02 19:56:32
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: Bwahahah I just read that India's Russian carrier suffered a massive propulsion failure on trials in mid September, and delivery is now delayed another 10 months while Sevmash cuts out 7 of her 8 boilers to replace them.
Got to love those Russian power plants. I'll take a Babcock and Wilcox any day.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2012/10/02 20:43:13
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: Bwahahah I just read that India's Russian carrier suffered a massive propulsion failure on trials in mid September, and delivery is now delayed another 10 months while Sevmash cuts out 7 of her 8 boilers to replace them.
Got to love those Russian power plants. I'll take a Babcock and Wilcox any day.
Their aviation power plants have a similar reputation. I'm quite the fan of the four Rolls Royces the C-130J has under her hoods. Much better longevity.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
AustonT wrote: Bwahahah I just read that India's Russian carrier suffered a massive propulsion failure on trials in mid September, and delivery is now delayed another 10 months while Sevmash cuts out 7 of her 8 boilers to replace them.
Got to love those Russian power plants. I'll take a Babcock and Wilcox any day.
Their aviation power plants have a similar reputation. I'm quite the fan of the four Rolls Royces the C-130J has under her hoods. Much better longevity.
Everytime I see the mention of a C130.
Pilot: Number 3 engine missing.
Maintenance Section: Engine found on right wing after brief search.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/03 16:52:56
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: Bwahahah I just read that India's Russian carrier suffered a massive propulsion failure on trials in mid September, and delivery is now delayed another 10 months while Sevmash cuts out 7 of her 8 boilers to replace them.
So the Russo-Indian alliances 'believe' is proved correct!
China will have more bargains to bully India over Tibet struggle. or maybe not ??
Everytime I see the mention of a C130.
Pilot: Number 3 engine missing.
Maintenance Section: Engine found on right wing after brief search.
I remember a B17 lost it's tail over France. Tail gunner fell all the way down thinking the plane was going down only to have the tail glide in and land. About half the plane flew back to England.
Now that's American Avionics. 50% of the entire plane can be shot off, and still successfully return to base.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2012/10/03 19:01:18
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
They don't make em like that anymore. My example has always been Loach or Huey pilots who had two, three or four airplanes shot out from under them IN A DAY. You can't crash a Balckhawk and walk away (yeah I know there are exceptions).
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/03 22:59:53
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
How sure are you about that? I know the IAF made a large purchase of the Su30s to become their primary fighters but those were hardly their first purchase. I think the choice to go with Russian planes on land and sea had more to do with the fact that Russia is offering front line fighters instead of the interim jack of all trades bs our Navy seems to love so much. The tipping point could have easily been based on cost and performance.
Well, it was only a problem on our end. The SU-30 was a better choice for them for many reasons, and we made attempts to make F-18 more attractive by offering decommissioned carriers.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2012/10/04 02:13:26
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: They don't make em like that anymore. My example has always been Loach or Huey pilots who had two, three or four airplanes shot out from under them IN A DAY. You can't crash a Balckhawk and walk away (yeah I know there are exceptions).
[i[switching the rail[/i]
1. Are you taling about the fabled 'Black Hawk Down!' thing? (and saying that many Joes slain in Indochine is pretty forgotten ??)
2. One of Discovery Channel shows told us that Huey is the 'best' Helo ever. I'm sure that it is still in use in the US, and elsewhere. It is so Iconic that it might survive another decade until better helos or tiltrotor multifunction flyer has been perfected.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/04 07:19:45
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: They don't make em like that anymore. My example has always been Loach or Huey pilots who had two, three or four airplanes shot out from under them IN A DAY. You can't crash a Balckhawk and walk away (yeah I know there are exceptions).
[i[switching the rail[/i]
1. Are you taling about the fabled 'Black Hawk Down!' thing? (and saying that many Joes slain in Indochine is pretty forgotten ??)
2. One of Discovery Channel shows told us that Huey is the 'best' Helo ever. I'm sure that it is still in use in the US, and elsewhere. It is so Iconic that it might survive another decade until better helos or tiltrotor multifunction flyer has been perfected.
Hueys aren't going any where.
Meet the UH-1Y and the AH-1Z designated "Venom" and "Viper" respectively these new block Hueys and Super Cobras are fresh off the line and will keep the airframe in the Marine Corps inventory for a long time to come. That said the famous "sound" is gone as the twin rotors have been replaced with quad rotors.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
Good!
Those new Hueys. if upgraded that way. is still being so deadly, and i think it's cost-efficient than buying fresh new helos. pretty same reasons why US Army keeps M113 around.
Also these Hueys are actually real life 'Valks' and 'Vendettas' don'tchu think?
the RTA doesn't need to replace those oldie hueys with the new Blackhawks. (much of RTA purchase orders are overpriced. it is said that the commanders get some 'cuts' for each new hardware purchased)
@KM unless they have been totally replaced by the Lakotas there are still twin blade Hueys in the Army. We had a Huey that flew down from somewhere in New England to Georgia and stayed for a week until relieved by another crew. The problem is Bell has become notorious for cost overruns and late delivery on everything from new builds to refits.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/04 16:27:12
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
AustonT wrote: @KM unless they have been totally replaced by the Lakotas there are still twin blade Hueys in the Army. We had a Huey that flew down from somewhere in New England to Georgia and stayed for a week until relieved by another crew. The problem is Bell has become notorious for cost overruns and late delivery on everything from new builds to refits.
I actually didn't know the Army had any Hueys left in their inventory, thought it was all down to Blackhawks, 'Nooks, etc. Guessing they're used as utility birds as opposed to battle birds now? The UH-1Ns are still numerous in the fleet skid squadrons, whole Corps changes like the venom/viper upgrade takes forever, the one place the "sound" will be preserved for sure is my SAR unit out of Yuma that flies the HH-1N as previously mentioned. Due to safety concerns and some technical reasons we can't actually upgrade even to UH-1Ns much less the Venom package. (Short version, our block of Huey is more reliable for low, tight space terrain flying.)
Edit: Ah... Bird 4... such fond memories of taking a JP-5 bath under you on the flight line...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/04 16:28:04
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
I could be off by a month or two but the last CONUS Army Hueys retired in Jan 2011 IIRC.
The last time I saw one was in 2008.
They were being used for stateside MEDEVAC and in the Egyptian mission. That's why I said I don't know if Lakota had fully replaced them, they were bought for CONUS only use.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/10/08 00:50:58
Subject: China's first carrier enters service - Washington nervous
