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Hello all,

This may have been answered in a previous post but I cannot find it.

Do vehicles destroyed count as first blood. I run Space Marine armies and have been giving first blood in every game with a rhino or razorback kill and was wondering?

Thank you in advance,
Ninthplain

You get first blood for the first unit destroyed in a game. Unless there's a recent FAQ I missed, as vehicles are units, they count for first blood.

Technically you only get First Blood for the first unit that is removed as a casualty. Which means about the only way to get First Blood is to run a unit off the board or Sweep them, as those are bout the only ways for a unit to be removed as a casualty.

I know of no one who actually enforces that little RAW, and everyone plays it the first unit that is "destroyed".

Happyjew wrote:
I know of no one who actually enforces that little RAW...

I would not consider it RaW at all. Once all the models that make up a unit have been removed from play, the unit has been removed from play, because the unit is that group of models, and there is no portion of the unit still in play.

If you want to mess around with RaW, though, you can argue that a wrecked vehicle is not removed from play, on account of the model still being on the table.

I only grant first blood for units and individual vehicles but for dedicated transports. Mainly because I run trukk spam.

 illuknisaa wrote:
I only grant first blood for units and individual vehicles but for dedicated transports. Mainly because I run trukk spam.

Your trunks grant first blood. You can't just change the rules cause they disadvantage you. Well you can, but then your playing your own game and you can say first blood is only granted if you drop your trousers and sing the national anthem.

Drager wrote:
Your trunks grant first blood. ...first blood is only granted if you drop your trousers...

So, you're agreeing here, right?

Pyrian wrote:

Happyjew wrote:
I know of no one who actually enforces that little RAW...

I would not consider it RaW at all. Once all the models that make up a unit have been removed from play, the unit has been removed from play, because the unit is that group of models, and there is no portion of the unit still in play.

If you want to mess around with RaW, though, you can argue that a wrecked vehicle is not removed from play, on account of the model still being on the table.

Then you are incorrect if you do not "consider it RaW".

SA and running off the table are the only way for a unit to be removed as a casualty. Except for SA and running off the table, units do not get removed as a casualty, models do.

"The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty" P.122

But everyone plays it the first unit that is "destroyed". even though it is not the RAW, as the RAW is silly in this case.

You have contradicted me, but you have not addressed my argument.

It's not enough to be removed from play. The unit must be removed from play as casualties. Of course the only people wh enforce this are the ones that won't allow models without eyes to fire since they cannot draw LOS from the models eyes.

Pyrian wrote:
You have contradicted me, but you have not addressed my argument.

because your argument has no merit on the basis of the rules I posted.

Though no one plays that way because only getting FB for SA or making a unit fall off the table is silly.

BRB pg122 wrote:
First Blood
The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty
during the game is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing
player at the end of the game.
If the mission being played is Purge the Alien, then this unit
will therefore be worth 2 Victory Points in total. If the mission
being played is Big Guns Never Tire, and the destroyed unit was
a Heavy Support unit, it will, therefore, be worrh 2 Victory Points
in total. If the mission being played is The Scouring, and the
destroyed unit was a Fast Attack unit, it will, therefore, be wofih 2
Victory Points in total. If two or more units from opposing forces
are removed simultaneously (for exarnple, at the same Initiative
step in an Assault phase) then both players get 1 Victory Point (in
addition to any Victory Points from the mission).

It seems to me that the terms 'removed as a casualty' and 'destroyed' are used interchangeably throughout the rule.
I think the only ways that a whole unit can explicitly be 'removed as a casualty' is if it is swept from combat (it is also destroyed if this happens) or if it flees of the table. Perhaps if it is a single-model unit. A whole unit can be removed as casualties if enough unsaved wounds are allocated, but that perhaps is not explicitly what the rules ask for.
A unit can be destroyed if swept from combat, trapped and cannot flee, if it deep strike mishaps, if it is a vehicle reduced to 0 hull points or exploded.

Overall, I think that the definition of 'destroyed' and 'removed as a casualty' is used so fuzzily and interchangeably, both within the 'First Blood' rule and within the rulebook as a whole, that any 'RAW' reading is extremely difficult and probably pointless. The RAI I think indicates that a unit being 'removed as a casualty' or 'destroyed' is equivalent, and basically means 'all models in the unit being killed or removed from the board'.

Happyjew wrote:It's not enough to be removed from play. The unit must be removed from play as casualties.

So, if the unit is removed by Jaws of the World Wolf (which I have been vociferously told does not cause "casualties" and therefore you cannot use Reanimation Protocols), it doesn't count for First Blood, either?

DeathReaper wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
You have contradicted me, but you have not addressed my argument.

because your argument has no merit on the basis of the rules I posted.

The rules you posted have no bearing on my argument, which is simply that a unit is a group of models, as defined by the rulebook on page 3. As a group of models, if every model in it has been removed as casualties, then the unit has been removed as casualties.

"We haven't heard from Beta Command; was the regiment wiped out?"
DeathReaper: "The regiment is fine, but everyone in it is dead."

If, as is necessary for your side of the argument, the unit is a separate entity rather than being a group of models, and therefore removing the models does not remove the unit, then we must also conclude that removing the unit does not remove the models. Mind you, models not in a unit aren't terribly useful in most cases, as they cannot move, shoot, or charge (as you must select a unit to perform each of those actions). But the guys who swept them are screwed: They're still locked in combat (base contact with an enemy model), cannot swing (must attack a unit in base contact), but are perfectly eligible to be attacked by the guys they supposedly swept (attacks are made by models at units).

Pyrian wrote:

Happyjew wrote:It's not enough to be removed from play. The unit must be removed from play as casualties.

So, if the unit is removed by Jaws of the World Wolf (which I have been vociferously told does not cause "casualties" and therefore you cannot use Reanimation Protocols), it doesn't count for First Blood, either?

Technically? No, as the unit was not RFPaaC the unit would not give up First Blood. However, as I stated earlier, nobody plays strict RAW (at least in this regard) and any unit that is destroyed/wiped out/removed from play/smashed into s plastic pulp/what have you gives up First Blood.