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This thread assumes that the myth that Isha survived the Fall is correct...but she was not saved (or could not be saved) by Nurgle. My question is did Slaanesh really plan to 'eat' her like she did with the other Eldar Gods - or did she have something darker in mind? Isha is supposed to be mother of the Eldar race, and if Slaanesh (who can be either male or female on a whim) succeeded in corrupting/dominating her, what could be the implications for the Eldar, Chaos, and the galaxy as a whole? Would the Eldar be damned for good? Would another species spawned from Slaanesh and Isha arise? And what would the others - Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, the Emperor, etc. - do about it?

The Eldar are already doomed for good just for Slaanesh's existence. The only thing they have to look forward to is Ynnead possibly being able to kill it when they're all dead.

 n0t_u wrote:
The Eldar are already doomed for good just for Slaanesh's existence. The only thing they have to look forward to is Ynnead possibly being able to kill it when they're all dead.

Even then, its only a fool's hope.

Slaanesh would probably corrupt and then consume Isha. Remember, the gods aren't literally human or human-like, they're massive and complex creations of accumulated emotional energy. Isha is a potent source of power, and Slaanesh would probably jump from being the least powerful to the top 1st or 2nd position. Hence Nurgle has good reason to keep Isha's energy trapped (I am assuming since Isha is so diametrically opposed to Nurgle, Nurgle himself can't benefit from consuming her, but he CAN seal her off from Slaanesh).

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Slaanesh would probably corrupt and then consume Isha. Remember, the gods aren't literally human or human-like, they're massive and complex creations of accumulated emotional energy. Isha is a potent source of power, and Slaanesh would probably jump from being the least powerful to the top 1st or 2nd position.

If this had happened, Khorne and Tzeentch would be most displeased. Which would probably be an understatement compared to what Nurgle would do - his rival and love interest consumed by a perverted upstart, the Warp would probably flood in pestilence and the backlash in real space would prove nightmarish.

But I thought that Isha was captured (stolen) by Nurgle and put in his plague gardens to endure the plagues of the galaxy?

 Tadashi wrote:
or did she have something darker in mind?

Hawt. I like the way you think.

Also, the benefits of consuming a fellow Warp Entity seem to be temporary, considering how Slaanesh was only briefly amplified during the Fall, after eating the (Weakened due to lack of worship I should mention) Eldar Pantheon.

Also, why is Isha diametrically opposed to Nurgle? Nurgle is not just death, but rebirth.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
But I thought that Isha was captured (stolen) by Nurgle and put in his plague gardens to endure the plagues of the galaxy?

Yes, but he also has his fatherly side that wants to protect her from Slannesh. It really is genuine, if a little nasty and off putting.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
or did she have something darker in mind?

Hawt. I like the way you think.

Also, the benefits of consuming a fellow Warp Entity seem to be temporary, considering how Slaanesh was only briefly amplified during the Fall, after eating the (Weakened due to lack of worship I should mention) Eldar Pantheon.

Also, why is Isha diametrically opposed to Nurgle? Nurgle is not just death, but rebirth.

You're right, there is a tangential connection there, but I think they're still mostly opposite one another. Isha is a goddess of creation and birth. Nurgle is a god of rebirth, but not in the same strict sense, more like a corpse reborn as maggots. It's a secondary characteristic that's less broad, but it is still there - grandfather Nurgle does love his creations, but his creations are horrific creatures along the path of decay. I called them diametrically opposed because they are opposite aspects of the same idea - on the circle of life, Nurgle is on one side, and Isha is on the other.

Yeah I see Isha and Nurgle like the ying yang symbol - One cannot be truly light without contrasting to the dark in it's center - the dark cannot be known without knowing light. Nurgle isn't truly a god of rebirth ,He is the God of never ceasing decay, which only gives the illusion of rebirth because those committed to Nurgle never truly die by natural nonviolent means.

Well Nurgle did not steal Isha to protect her from Slaanesh, nor did he steal her to muffle slaanesh's power. He stole her because he keeps her in his rotting mansion in the warp. It says so in the Daemon Codex, page 82. He keeps her in a cage in the corner of his cauldron room. Whenever he whips up a vile disease, he tests it on her to see how effective it is. She cannot die, because she is the goddess of life, so he keeps testing her with all of his concoctions. The longer it takes for her to heal from the concoction, the better it is, and the more pleased nurgle is with it. But there is a Yin and Yang to this. Isha being the goddess of fertility and healing (as quoted from the daemon codex), and nurgle is the god of decay, disease, and death.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
You're right, there is a tangential connection there, but I think they're still mostly opposite one another. Isha is a goddess of creation and birth. Nurgle is a god of rebirth, but not in the same strict sense, more like a corpse reborn as maggots. It's a secondary characteristic that's less broad, but it is still there - grandfather Nurgle does love his creations, but his creations are horrific creatures along the path of decay. I called them diametrically opposed because they are opposite aspects of the same idea - on the circle of life, Nurgle is on one side, and Isha is on the other.

As the body dies, it becomes the birthplace and feeding ground of maggots, a new form of life, and as it continues to rot and decay, eventually it fertilizes the soil so that grass or plants may grow there.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
You're right, there is a tangential connection there, but I think they're still mostly opposite one another. Isha is a goddess of creation and birth. Nurgle is a god of rebirth, but not in the same strict sense, more like a corpse reborn as maggots. It's a secondary characteristic that's less broad, but it is still there - grandfather Nurgle does love his creations, but his creations are horrific creatures along the path of decay. I called them diametrically opposed because they are opposite aspects of the same idea - on the circle of life, Nurgle is on one side, and Isha is on the other.

As the body dies, it becomes the birthplace and feeding ground of maggots, a new form of life, and as it continues to rot and decay, eventually it fertilizes the soil so that grass or plants may grow there.

You're missing the point, Nurgle isn't the God of rebirth as you're toting him to be. Yes, death is an integral part of life, but Nurgle isn't the God of death either, he is the God of Decay and Destruction. He want's to come as close to death as he can and then cheat it for as long as possible. It's the same as any virus, pox, plague, or parasite that requires a host to live - infestation is the optimal achievement - but the death of the host is not because the disease dies without one. Likewise, those who follow Nurgle want to postpone death as long as possible by embracing the pestilence to the verge of death, and then Grandfather Nurgle sustains them with warp energy - effectively granting them immortality.

In his malign aspect, Nurgle is a spreader of rot, disease, and corruption, but in his benign aspect, he brings new life from death and makes way for new generations to replace the old.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
You're missing the point, Nurgle isn't the God of rebirth as you're toting him to be. Yes, death is an integral part of life, but Nurgle isn't the God of death either, he is the God of Decay and Destruction. He want's to come as close to death as he can and then cheat it for as long as possible. It's the same as any virus, pox, plague, or parasite that requires a host to live - infestation is the optimal achievement - but the death of the host is not because the disease dies without one. Likewise, those who follow Nurgle want to postpone death as long as possible by embracing the pestilence to the verge of death, and then Grandfather Nurgle sustains them with warp energy - effectively granting them immortality.

I think you will find that I am correct actually.

"The Great lord of Decay, Nurgle
presides over physical corruption and
the cycle of purification, rebirth and
morbidity."
- 6e rulebook, page 222, section "The Chaos Gods"

"For, as paradoxical as it might
seem, Nurgle encompasses life as well as death and survival
as well as decay. Rot and corrosion result in new life, virulent
plagues, bacteria, and fungi feeding on the corpses of the dead,
growing stronger on entropy. Thus, in a certain way, Nurgle
represents the cycle of life and death, and his devotees are often
blessed with supernatural endurance."
- Black Crusade core rulebook, page 85

"In death there is life. Upon the decay of the living thrive thousands of untold bacteria, viruses, insects, and other carrion-feeders. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grow new generations, stronger and more virile than before."
- Chaos Daemons 4e Codex, page 13

The Chaos Marines codex says something similar IIRC but I do not have it at the moment.

While CPH and I seem to differ on interpretation of what the fluff is trying to convey (Or rather, the theoretical implications it poses), I am sorry, but you can't argue with what the fluff actually states. Nurgle is death, but he is also life, he is decay, but he is also endurance, Nurgle represents a cycle of life made greater through death and decay, and inspiration brought on by suffering.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DemetriDominov wrote:
You're missing the point, Nurgle isn't the God of rebirth as you're toting him to be. Yes, death is an integral part of life, but Nurgle isn't the God of death either, he is the God of Decay and Destruction. He want's to come as close to death as he can and then cheat it for as long as possible. It's the same as any virus, pox, plague, or parasite that requires a host to live - infestation is the optimal achievement - but the death of the host is not because the disease dies without one. Likewise, those who follow Nurgle want to postpone death as long as possible by embracing the pestilence to the verge of death, and then Grandfather Nurgle sustains them with warp energy - effectively granting them immortality.

I think you will find that I am correct actually.

"The Great lord of Decay, Nurgle
presides over physical corruption and
the cycle of purification, rebirth and
morbidity."
- 6e rulebook, page 222, section "The Chaos Gods"

"For, as paradoxical as it might
seem, Nurgle encompasses life as well as death and survival
as well as decay. Rot and corrosion result in new life, virulent
plagues, bacteria, and fungi feeding on the corpses of the dead,
growing stronger on entropy. Thus, in a certain way, Nurgle
represents the cycle of life and death, and his devotees are often
blessed with supernatural endurance."
- Black Crusade core rulebook, page 85

"In death there is life. Upon the decay of the living thrive thousands of untold bacteria, viruses, insects, and other carrion-feeders. All life feeds upon other life to exist, and from every plague grow new generations, stronger and more virile than before."
- Chaos Daemons 4e Codex, page 13

The Chaos Marines codex says something similar IIRC but I do not have it at the moment.

While CPH and I seem to differ on interpretation of what the fluff is trying to convey (Or rather, the theoretical implications it poses), I am sorry, but you can't argue with what the fluff actually states. Nurgle is death, but he is also life, he is decay, but he is also endurance, Nurgle represents a cycle of life made greater through death and decay, and inspiration brought on by suffering.

You're taking the quotes out of context, CSM codex 4e states on pg 51:

"Yet Nurgle's power embodies, by its very nature, the notion of the eternal cycle of life. Decay is inevitable, but so too is rebirth. The form that rebirth may take is, of course rarely the ideal.... these gifts often take the form of repulsive diseases and hideous deformations which, while useful in spreading Nurgle's contagions, may often lead to the death of the carrier. The servants of Nurgle cry out to be rid them of the gifts they so blatantly invited ... [only for Nurgle to take] great sport in prolonging their suffering through the granting of yet more of his marks.

The very nature of Nurgle's power is such that it will inevitably consume all of its victims and leave few survivors to perpetuate the contagion. At this point the plague god's might wanes and his plans falter. But one thing is certain: the plague is never truly eradicated, and its spores are often spread far and wide before exploding into yet another epidemic, when once again Nurgle's legions are swelled with the grotesque living dead."

Nurgle is not god of death, He is not the god of life, He is the God of Decay. He embodies dying as slowly as possible to spread even more decay. That is the entire point of a pox, plague, pestilence, or other contagion - to live through the deaths of others. The life cycle of a plague is that of constant migration from host to host, it never truly dies, but appears to be reborn with each new epidemic. In a way, it's a parody of life, mimicking the natural life cycle because it is a part of it - but spits in its face because as others die and fester the pox lives on almost as though it is immortal.

We've also completely derailed this thread lol.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
You're taking the quotes out of context, CSM codex 4e states on pg 51:

"Yet Nurgle's power embodies, by its very nature, the notion of the eternal cycle of life. Decay is inevitable, but so too is rebirth. The form that rebirth may take is, of course rarely the ideal.... these gifts often take the form of repulsive diseases and hideous deformations which, while useful in spreading Nurgle's contagions, may often lead to the death of the carrier. The servants of Nurgle cry out to be rid them of the gifts they so blatantly invited ... [only for Nurgle to take] great sport in prolonging their suffering through the granting of yet more of his marks.

The very nature of Nurgle's power is such that it will inevitably consume all of its victims and leave few survivors to perpetuate the contagion. At this point the plague god's might wanes and his plans falter. But one thing is certain: the plague is never truly eradicated, and its spores are often spread far and wide before exploding into yet another epidemic, when once again Nurgle's legions are swelled with the grotesque living dead."

None of this contradicts what I said. In fact, it supports it. Notice how it notes that Nurgle's power, as its very nature, is the eternal cycle of life. Exactly as I have said. It just notes that what form it may take is rarely the ideal.

Oh and er, page 51 of the CSM 4e codex is the second page of Ahriman's entry... Did you get the wrong page?

Nurgle is not god of death, He is not the god of life, He is the God of Decay.

You seem to be under the impression that being the latter makes one unable to be the former two.

He embodies dying as slowly as possible to spread even more decay. That is the entire point of a pox, plague, pestilence, or other contagion - to live through the deaths of others. The life cycle of a plague is that of constant migration from host to host, it never truly dies, but appears to be reborn with each new epidemic. In a way, it's a parody of life, mimicking the natural life cycle because it is a part of it - but spits in its face because as others die and fester the pox lives on almost as though it is immortal.

We've also completely derailed this thread lol.

I'm still not seeing the part where you have invalidated a single thing I said.

You may have a different interpretation to what Nurgle is (Although what you are speaking of represents more what Nurgle does), but that doesn't change what the fluff states very clearly: Nurgle represents the circle of life. The decay, death, and birth of new life.

I think we're missing something here.

If Slaanesh were to "rape" Isha, then why not rape Khaine and the other gods as well? Often, I find that it's easy for us to forget that Slaanesh isn't just a god of pleasure, but all pleasure and sensation. Slaanesh has no gender, or at least no true gender, and I personally believe that to a being as hedonistic as Slaanesh, gender really wouldn't matter. So why stop at Isha? Khaine, Cegorach, anything should really be "game" to Slaanesh, and I don't think he/she'd treat Isha any differently than Khaine.

Sex as the embodiment of hedonism is something I don't necessarily agree with. While sex is a carnal and certainly hedonistic act, I disagree that sexual activity is the culmination of Slaaneshi worship. Slaanesh isn't a god of sex, he/she's a god of sensation, all sensation. Killing is another equal form of expression and sensation, and I think that, to Slaanesh, the highest form of hedonism is that which suits the individual. Which can be sex, but is not limited to it.

 Cryonicleech wrote:
Khaine, Cegorach, anything should really be "game" to Slaanesh, and I don't think he/she'd treat Isha any differently than Khaine.

Khaine is too powerful for Slaanesh to overpower - the best she could do was shatter him to many pieces and blast them into the material realm. Cegorach? Now you see him, now you don't.

EDIT: Regarding Nurgle, I've always considered him as the embodiment of the will to live - no matter how hard life is, no matter how terrible going on would be, no matter how painful it can get, just continuing to exist and live is enough. That is Nurgle.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Oh and er, page 51 of the CSM 4e codex is the second page of Ahriman's entry... Did you get the wrong page?

I'm using the edition printed in 2002. Maybe it's 3rd edition.

You seem to be under the impression that being the latter makes one unable to be the former two.

Yes. Those who follow Him are not "reborn" when they are slain by His plagues. He isn't the god of Death either because he tends His garden teeming with pestilence. If you said that he is a creator of new life I would have agreed with you, but you went so far as to equate Him to share the philosophy of Isha, the true God of life - which He is clearly not.

I'm still not seeing the part where you have invalidated a single thing I said.

The "rebirth" even the codex's are implying is not a true rebirth - The quote from the Black Crusade rulebook: "In a certain way" literally translates into a transitional metaphor that means "it is similar but not the same"... as representing the cycle of life and death.." For example, my public health background describes that any communicable disease creates curricular vectors of infection that never truly die so long as they not die out when their host finally perishes. If they can make the jump into another host before it dies, they aren't "reborn", they continue to live and multiply at a faster rate to which the organism can combat. Eventually the next host will die if it cannot eradicate or manage the disease and the disease will need a new host to survive yet again. Nurgle is making parasites that feast upon the slow deaths of others, the very definition of decay, and the nature of ALL illness. These parasites and epidemics are not reborn - they are perpetuated just as Nurgle's power waxes and wanes in their own life cycles. That is the cycle that mimics the life cycle, but isn't truly one.

You may have a different interpretation to what Nurgle is (Although what you are speaking of represents more what Nurgle does), but that doesn't change what the fluff states very clearly: Nurgle represents the circle of life. The decay, death, and birth of new life.

Nurgle is what He does. All Chaos Gods embody what they do, I challenge you to define one of the Gods by what they are, but not what they do, and you will find it an impossible task. Which is why I'm so opposed to the idea that Isha isn't opposed to Nurgle. It's fitting that she is in His court because he makes a mockery of everything she stands for. Creation cannot stand before what enviably brings its ruin, and without evolution, ruin would claim all.

There is also the theory that all Gods of races are just parts of the Chaos Powers - so Khaine is part of both Khorne and Slaanesh - hence the big fight over him.

Isha was part of Both Slaanesh and Nurgle - again hence the fight - it may be that there was fights over some of the other Gods but they are not mentioned or the Other Powers did not bother.

Inherent problem when defining Chaos, the nature of chaos is... well... chaotic.

to understand the motivations of chaos gods you first have ro separate WHAT they are from WHO they are. Nurgle is more than just the personification of what he represents, he is also a sentient being of unimaginable power, he has a personality of his own, smiling all the time and caring for his followers has nothing to do with what he does in his capacity as a God, how he goes about what he does is as telling of his character if not more than saying "He is the God of plague and entropy"

Nurgle always seeks to endear himself with his followers, he lies, cheats and misrepresents but he genuinely seems to care for his minions, admittedly this is possibly because they spread his "Gifts" but note how even he denotes them as gifts, he honestly believes in his own benevolence, I mean how many people even today in the real world would do anything for immortality.

Another example of Gods acting with a character instead of their Godly motivation would be Khorne. Correct me if I am wrong but i remember a story whereby Slannesh attempted to kill Khaine during the war in heaven and Khorne essentially bitch slapped his younger brother around the head and forbid him from killing a God of battle. The death of the Eldar God of Battle would have made exterminating the Eldar that much easier, more skulls for the skull throne, more blood for the blood God, but the act angered Khorne to see almost a reflection of himself treated in such a way.

Moving back to the point, Slannesh would have raped her... repeatedly, and probably did. Whether Nurgle "rescued" Isha for his experiments, to deny Slannesh power or because he honest disliked seeing a Goddess close to him treated that way. Probably a bit of all three to be fair.

Consider this, among the worst criminals in the world, rapists are still considered the scum of the universe, why would a God, linked to mortal emotions, tolerate it?