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I played against my friend's Rapier Laser Destroyers (RLDs) a few times now. The datasheet can be found under the following link, updated for 6th edition.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/Imperial_Guard_Rapier.pdf
They seemed undercosted for me under 5th edition, but with the new T7-for-every-guardsman-rules of 6th edition, they get plain ridiculous.
So I looked into Codex: IG and searched for a rough "equivalent" to the RLD: a non-vehicle anti-tank unit able to receive orders and remaining stationary most of the time. Then I went and compared them against common targets: AV12 and AV14 armor - Chimeras, Leman Russes, Land Raiders, Battlewagons, Devilfishes, etc.pp. Results will approximately apply to other targets as well.

The advantages of a unit are marked green. Conclusion for TL/DR people below.

Heavy Weapons Team: Lascannon
Points cost: 35pts / team

Offensive stats: BS3 S9 AP2 Heavy 1 48"
Defensive stats: T3 W2 5+ (1 model)

Chance of one-shot killing AV12 target: 1/2 (hit) * 1/2 (pen) * 1/3 (roll 5 or 6 due to AP2) = 1/12 = 8.33%
with "Bring it down!" order: [...] = 12.55%
with target in 5+ cover (smoke launchers): [...] = 5.55%
with "Fire on my target!" against 5+ cover: [...] = 7.4%

Chance of one-shot killing AV14 target: 1/2 (hit) * 1/6 (pen) * 1/3 (roll 5 or 6 due to AP2) = 1/12 = 2.78%
with "Bring it down!" order: [...] = 4.17%
with target in 5+ cover (smoke launchers): [...] = 1.85%
with "Fire on my target!" against 5+ cover: [...] = 2.47%

Graia Pattern Imperial Guard Rapier Laser Destroyer
Points cost: 40pts / gun and one infantry model (approx. 14% more expensive than LC HWT)

Offensive stats: BS3 Twin-Linked S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 48"
Defensive stats: T7 W2 3+ (gun) // T7/T3 W1 5+ (infantry model ranged/CC targetted)

Chance of one-shot killing AV12 target: 3/4 (hit with TL) * 27/36 (pen with ordnance) * 1/3 (roll 5 or 6 due to AP2) = 3/16 = 18.75% (effectiveness compared to LC HWT: 225%)
Bring it down! not necessary due to twin-linking.
with target in 5+ cover (smoke launchers): [...] = 12.5%
with "Fire on my target!" against 5+ cover: [...] = 16.67%

Chance of one-shot killing AV14 target: 3/4 (hit with TL) * 11/36 (pen with ordnance) * 1/3 (roll 5 or 6 due to AP2) = 1/12 = 7.64% (effectiveness compared to LC HWT: 275%)
Bring it down! not necessary due to twin-linking.
with target in 5+ cover (smoke launchers): [...] = 5.09%
with "Fire on my target!" against 5+ cover: [...] = 6.79%

CONCLUSION:
For just 5 more points (14%)than a Lascannon Heavy Weapons Team you can get a Rapier Laser Destroyer with:

- T7 W2 3+ weapon model and T7(!!!)/T3 W1 5+ gunner model
- a performance boost of +125% against AV12 for one-shot kills
- a performance boost of +175% against AV12 for one-shot kills
- respective peformance increases for other armor values and other damage results - main bonus comes from Ordnance and Twin-Linking
- the ability to buy extra gunners (meatshields) with T7 stats against ranged fire for only +6 points

These things are so mind-boggingly good that it's not even funny anymore. Yes, IG likes its Heavy Support slots, but three of these guns with some meatshields will absolutely devastate any enemy armor on the field, while they are virtually impossible to kill or silence even for one round with ranged fire - and being ridiculously cheap!

Comments? Thoughts? I have half a mind to write FW a mail and urge them to please, PLEASE review the points costs for their Rapier Laser Destroyers.

Chance of scoring an objective:

HWT: 100%

Rapier: 17%

Scoring is nice, but IG really doesn't need to RELY on HWS for scoring, does it. Enough guardsmen or veterans running around to take care of that, usually, so this is not a primary advantage in my eyes.

 Witzkatz wrote:
Scoring is nice, but IG really doesn't need to RELY on HWS for scoring, does it. Enough guardsmen or veterans running around to take care of that, usually, so this is not a primary advantage in my eyes.

But that's a big part of why they're so cheap: they're heavy support, not troops. They don't score, and they take up the same slot as a lot of other units you'd like to bring. Even at only 40 points per model you're often going to be better off taking HWTs and Manticores or whatever.

I'll grant you that scoring is nice, I'll say that again. Nevertheless, do you realize that with T7, 2 wounds for the weapons, cover and extra crewmen there is virtually no way of stopping them from firing, even if you focus a lot of firepower on them? They can't be shaken or stunned, they can just put T7 meatshields in front of the main guns to keep those alive, and even if you blast the whole bunch with S10 AP2 demolisher rounds, the guns are not insta-killable and there'll be surely two or three crewmen to survive even such firepower to just fire the guns again, as if nothing happened.

This, together with the fact that you can give them "Fire on my target", which makes an absolute mockery of the new reduced amount of cover (5+ for woods, 5+ for smoke launchers - with FomT, chances of a successul cover save drop to 1/9 or roughly 11%), makes them so utterly effective at killing any kind of enemy armor. The Manticore has a higher damange potential now that blasts hit vehicles with full strength even not under the center hole - but defensively, these guns are much more resilient than any Manticore. Hell, probably more resilient than a Leman Russ, because that can be shaken or stunned.


To think up some possible tactics: I think Dark Eldar massed 4+ poison fire will probably be able to deal with them, since for them it doesn't matter if the crewmen are T7 or T3. Another weakness is their leadership value of 7, which can be tinkered with if you have a psyker or two handy. However, all this holds also true to regular HWSs, which are worse and only marginally cheaper.

Yes, they are very cheap. Yes, they are better value than a HWS. But people have already stated the reason for this -

IMPERIAL GUARD HS SLOTS ARE GOLD DUST.
THEY ARE THE MOST POPULAR SLOT IN THE CODEX

Especially if your games are using forge world, the 40pts is the only incentive to take rapiers, the other options are just too tempting; there are manticores or russes and myriad other competition.

You are comparing them to one of the worst units in the IG codex. Compare them to vendettas and come back with the results please.

Also, if you kill the one crewman, the gun is gone as well, so if you have barrage, outflankers or deepstrikers, you can take the gun out with one wound against T7 5+ save

I don't think FW options can actually recieve orders. The IG faq says orders can be given to codex:IG units, and while FW units are options for a codex: IG army, they aren't actually in the codex.

Crystal-Maze wrote:


IMPERIAL GUARD HS SLOTS ARE GOLD DUST.
THEY ARE THE MOST POPULAR SLOT IN THE CODEX

If heavy slots are gold dust, fast attack is diamonds.

OP is right. Laser destroyers were borderline broken in 5th, now they're just rediculous.

I don't get th whole "derp heavy support derp". If you can get laser destroyers for that cheap, you don't need heavy support.

 Illumini wrote:
You are comparing them to one of the worst units in the IG codex. Compare them to vendettas and come back with the results please.

Also, if you kill the one crewman, the gun is gone as well, so if you have barrage, outflankers or deepstrikers, you can take the gun out with one wound against T7 5+ save

I don't think FW options can actually recieve orders. The IG faq says orders can be given to codex:IG units, and while FW units are options for a codex: IG army, they aren't actually in the codex.

Crystal-Maze wrote:


IMPERIAL GUARD HS SLOTS ARE GOLD DUST.
THEY ARE THE MOST POPULAR SLOT IN THE CODEX

If heavy slots are gold dust, fast attack is diamonds.

Allright, I can get three Rapier Laser Destroyers and one additional crew for 126. Vendettas are 130, they got three S9 AP2 TL 48" Lascannons on a Flyer/Antigrav chassis. So it has range and mobility, I grant you that. Number and strength of shots are the same. On the other hand, though, a RLD has Ordnance, which goes a LONG way in actually penetrating your target - 75% chance to pen AV12 against 50% without Ordnance, 30% chance to pen AV14 against 17% without ordnance. And the more important point - you cannot keep them from firing properly. Last game, my Vendetta zoomed in and got instantly hit by interception Hydra fire. A simple stunned result that was downgraded to shaken, but guess what? Not a single lascannon shot that round. Following that, it was blown out of the sky. Three RLDs with their non-vehicle status and T7 will NEVER be as easily kept from shooting than a meagre AV12 vehicle. RLDs can also easily claim cover saves, something which makes them even more resilient in direct comparison to the Vendetta.

And that is why I am with Testify - they are still underpriced. And still valid for HS slots, especially in low- or mid-point games. The math is difficult to do, but I don't think there's a heavy support slot vehicle that - point for point - can outshoot Rapier LDs. Possibly a Manticore IF it gets to fire. And if you keep a battery of 3 RLDs, you can still take a Manticore and three Russes...

Forgeworld gave a unit they created an inappropriate points cost?

Do go on...

Yeah well I always took it for granted that Forgeworld stuff had no balance whatsover and that it was supposed to be a "fun" thing between friends. But some people on dakka get up in arms over that suggestion and insist that there's no reason not to allow FW in normal games.

They have about the same track-record as GW codexes, some overpowered units, some average and some bad.

The FW artillery units are undercosted at the moment because of the artillery change. Contrary to GW however, FW actually update their rules fairly regularly. They recently updated all their fliers and AA units following the changes 6th brought here. Artillery will probably get a similar treatment.

Having actual experience with FW from tourney and non-tourney gaming, I can say that they in no way break the game.

Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

Last time I checked Orks don't have 48" range twinlinked lascannons with ordnance rules and the ability to get orders

Although kannons are awesome as well, they're not even in the same league as these things.

That said though, this is FW. These are the guys that brought you the super happy funtime dropdread assault box of fun and fiery death TM.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

Last time I checked Orks don't have 48" range twinlinked lascannons with ordnance rules and the ability to get orders

Although kannons are awesome as well, they're not even in the same league as these things.

That said though, this is FW. These are the guys that brought you the super happy funtime dropdread assault box of fun and fiery death TM.

As mentioned above, I don't think FW units can get orders. The dreadpod was nerfed fairly quickly, now it is a "fun" option. FW actually seem to react to player feedback.

 Illumini wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

Last time I checked Orks don't have 48" range twinlinked lascannons with ordnance rules and the ability to get orders

Although kannons are awesome as well, they're not even in the same league as these things.

That said though, this is FW. These are the guys that brought you the super happy funtime dropdread assault box of fun and fiery death TM.

As mentioned above, I don't think FW units can get orders. The dreadpod was nerfed fairly quickly, now it is a "fun" option. FW actually seem to react to player feedback.

If I remember correctly, units like the rapier are designed to be taken as part of the "normal" IG codex. That's why it says "this option may be taken in the heavy support slot of an Imperial Guard Army" correct? That's at least what it said last time I saw it. Same goes for things like the vulture gunship, hence why you see them in "Normal" IG codex armies.

As for the dread thing, yes I know they fixed it a bit, just using it to prove a point

Looked at the link.... where does it say the Guardsman gets the T7? The stat line given shows the crew having T3, even for the DKoK crew. It also shows a 5+ armor save for crew.

Forge world units are nice and all but a lot of TOs just don't allow them. Completely understandable in my opinion, not everyone can afford them, and not everyone is familiar with the rules.

 helgrenze wrote:
Looked at the link.... where does it say the Guardsman gets the T7? The stat line given shows the crew having T3, even for the DKoK crew. It also shows a 5+ armor save for crew.

The new artillery rules I believe, which so far only Imperial, Eldar, and Ork factions have benefitted from if memory serves. Every one else will need to wait their turn for exceedingly hard to kill big guns.

 Ailaros wrote:
Forgeworld gave a unit they created an inappropriate points cost?

Do go on...

Nah, it just matches the IG codices point system

There is nothing to see here.

Everything that Forge World produces is perfectly fair and balanced.

Not only that, but it gives the struggling codexes like Imperial Guard some additional units to help them compete with the newer books.

 Kain wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:
Looked at the link.... where does it say the Guardsman gets the T7? The stat line given shows the crew having T3, even for the DKoK crew. It also shows a 5+ armor save for crew.

The new artillery rules I believe, which so far only Imperial, Eldar, and Ork factions have benefitted from if memory serves. Every one else will need to wait their turn for exceedingly hard to kill big guns.

Aye, you ALWAYS use the T7 of the guns for to-wound rolls from ranged attacks. So...you get guardsmen (or grots!) that can't be hurt by S3 weapons AT ALL and only wounded on 6+ by bolters, heavy bolters, flamers, heavy flamers, burst cannons, you name it. Regardless of whether they stand in cover or not. Ridiculous. At least the guardsmen can't claim the 3+ armor save the guns have...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Illumini wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

Last time I checked Orks don't have 48" range twinlinked lascannons with ordnance rules and the ability to get orders

Although kannons are awesome as well, they're not even in the same league as these things.

That said though, this is FW. These are the guys that brought you the super happy funtime dropdread assault box of fun and fiery death TM.

As mentioned above, I don't think FW units can get orders. The dreadpod was nerfed fairly quickly, now it is a "fun" option. FW actually seem to react to player feedback.

If I remember correctly, units like the rapier are designed to be taken as part of the "normal" IG codex. That's why it says "this option may be taken in the heavy support slot of an Imperial Guard Army" correct? That's at least what it said last time I saw it. Same goes for things like the vulture gunship, hence why you see them in "Normal" IG codex armies.

As for the dread thing, yes I know they fixed it a bit, just using it to prove a point

Yep, it says you can include them as a X slot in a codex: IG army. However, the FAQ says you can only give orders to codex:IG units, and even though you can include FW units in a codex: IG army, they aren't actually in the codex. Kind of a grey area, admittedly, but in grey cases, it is always better to take the least advantageous stance IMO.

 helgrenze wrote:
Looked at the link.... where does it say the Guardsman gets the T7? The stat line given shows the crew having T3, even for the DKoK crew. It also shows a 5+ armor save for crew.

It's the artillery section of the BRB. As long as a gun remains the unit has T7.
Now back to the Orks.
Lets say 9 Zzapguns with 12 total crew plus a runt herd that's 39 T7 wounds that fire 9 str 2D6 ap2 shots at bs 3 with 9 ammo rungs for "twin link" to range 36, or add a couple HQ in mega armor and they gain slow and purposefull which gives them an effective range of 42 inches.

You are comparing apples to genetically modified oranges brought in from Canada. Silly.

 beerbeard wrote:
You are comparing apples to genetically modified oranges brought in from Canada. Silly.

While being a colorful analogy, I don't see what exactly your post's point is. Care to explain?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
Orders aside, there is nothing here that Orks can't do with cheaper points. Orks can throw much more meat shield, and are harder to pin. Everyone has freaked out about flyers, but it is artillery that became the king of battle. Perhaps rightfully so?

Last time I checked Orks don't have 48" range twinlinked lascannons with ordnance rules and the ability to get orders

Although kannons are awesome as well, they're not even in the same league as these things.

That said though, this is FW. These are the guys that brought you the super happy funtime dropdread assault box of fun and fiery death TM.

Well guard should always out shoot Orks.
But they do get limited twin linked and can be given slow and purposeful for range 42. With basically 3d6 on penetration roll with twice the wound capacity. They are also much harder to deal with in assault. Not the same, but just as much of a tactical threat.

 Blackmoor wrote:
There is nothing to see here.

Everything that Forge World produces is perfectly fair and balanced.

Not only that, but it gives the struggling codexes like Imperial Guard some additional units to help them compete with the newer books.

I like the way you think. Good thing the over-powered Tyranids don't have any units like this - they'd rule the tournament scene!

 beerbeard wrote:
You are comparing apples to genetically modified oranges brought in from Canada. Silly.

Just what Oranges need, more goat.
Because they both hurt when they hit you in the head

I feel Witzkatz pain, it's the same pain I feel facing Ork artillery.

I am just trying to figure out what to do against these monstrosities. It doesn't help when there are LR Demolishers and Vendettas zooming around while trying to deal with these...

I actually wrote an E-mail to FW and asked them whether they might adjust points cost for the RLD at least slightly. The new artillery rules probably won't change quickly, since GW probably doesn't want to errata something like that so soon after the rulebook came out.