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I tried doing a search, but I couldn't find any results, so I figured I'd have to ask instead:

Let's say you stick in a Zahndrekh in a Nightscythe with, I dunno, some Immortals.
Also, you have Obyron and a unit of 20 Warriors already on the table.
Zahndrekh's Nightscythe zooms onto the table and parks next to something you want shot to pieces.
Zahndrekh's unit does NOT disembark.
now,
Can Obyron and his unit Ghostwalk themselves next to Zahndrekh's Nightscythe and benefit from the Vargard's Duty and not scatter because Obyron is arriving with 6" of Zahndrekh?

If so... wow, that is a very handy way to systematically obliterate back field pains in the ass like Long Fangs and Basilisks.

This works identical to a teleport homer, and those are required to be on the table at the very least(present at the start of the turn, to be more specific). So precedenent would indicate that no it is not allowed. However, I would suggest that this strategy you are working on would still be viable by just disembarking a solid unit from the Night Scythe and not moving the Scythe more than 24" and you can still shoot at your Normal
BS.

I don't get it: if Zahndrekh were in a CCB which had zoomed off next to an enemy unit, Obyron and his attached unit would be able to Ghostwalk next to him no problem, but if Zahndrekh's in a Nightscythe, this doesn't work?
What's the difference?

As for the tactic you suggested, yes, that would work for a small unit of Immortals, but it's a little hard to fit 22 models in a NS (full Warrior squad with attached Royal Court members), hence the need to Ghostwalk them across the board... but with a footprint that size, scatter would potentially be devastating.

They follow the same rule. Either they both work or they don't.

However, note that if Zahndrekh is embarked on a CCB, and is charged, Vargard's Duty does not kick in as they are not charging Zahndrekh.

Happyjew wrote:
They follow the same rule.

Do they, though? As far as I was aware, no where in the codex or FAQ did it say Zahndrekh had to be on the board at the beginning of the turn for Obyron's Vargard's Duty to be used.

Just because it's similar to how teleport homers work, does that mean it must be used EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as one?

This works fine. Of course you need to rely on your Reserve rolls for Zandrekh to show up before you can use it.

The similar combo NecronLord is thinking of is a Locator Beacon on a Stormraven or Drop Pod, which can guide in Deep Striking units, but Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers have to be on the table at the start of the turn (before Reserves move on) to be used. The Nemesor has no such restriction.

 Mannahnin wrote:
This works fine.
[...]
The Nemesor has no such restriction.

EXCELLENT.
This is the confirmation I was after.
Much obliged, sir.
*tips hat*

The only problem is, Zahndrekh isn't actually onboard the nightscythe. He is elsewhere waiting to disembark from via the invasion beam.

Hmm, that may, indeed, need FAQ'ing...

It doesn't. Units embarked on a transport are considered (for rules purposes) to be where the transport is, and you measure effects like that from the hull of the vehicle. The Necron FAQ still makes clear that the unit is considered to be embarked in the Night Scythe. Read the Invasion Beams special rule.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570047a_Necrons_v1.1.pdf

Slightly off original topic, how does that come into play when a NS is shot down?
(I remember that one side of the argument had been that the embarked unit takes the crash damage, while the other side of the argument postulated that because the unit was not physically inside the aircraft when it crashed (Invasion Beams, and all), it did not take any damage... I don't recall the outcome of said argument).

Really? I was under the impression that models in vehicles were 'removed from the table' and therefor not considered 'on' the table for most other rules? (with exceptions for rules which specifically allow for interaction with models on the board; for example using fire ports).

See page 78 for the transport rules in full, but here is the pertinent text: "...When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported..."
And a relevent excerpt from 'The Varguards' Duty': "...uses his Ghostwalk Mantle, he does not scatter providing he aims to arrive within 6" of Zahndrekh..."

For posters who've indicated that you can deepstrike without error; please explain how you can 'aim to arrive within 6 inches' of a model that is not currently on the table?

Well, if you include the following and key sentence in that first quote, you'll see it.

Page 78 wrote:When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported. If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull

Units which are embarked on transports are still in play. The MODELS representing them are removed from the table, but the unit is still in play, with some restrictions on how it interacts with other units.

The part that makes this a bit counterintuitive with Night Scythes is that the fluff for their portal is that they're not actually in the thing, but game mechanics-wise, they are, as the Invasion Beams rule tells us by referring to the unit as being embarked on the transport.

Actually no, the rule you quoted indicates that 'when the unit embarks, remove it (the unit) from the table' just as i'd previously suggested.

What i'd like you to clarify if you could is where you are seeing rules-justification for your statement that the unit remains in play? as your quoted text states quite the opposite. Also, 'Varguards' Duty' allows one to deepstrike without error only within 6" of Zandrekh himself, not whatever unit he happens to be a part of (if any).

Your argument is contrary to how transports work. A unit embarks into a transport by climbing into it. They are still there, for fluff and rules purposes, inside the transport. This is manifestly clear throughout the transport rules, made obvious by, for six examples:

A) You can measure the range of effects to and from them by measuring to the hull.
B) They can shoot out of fire points.
C) The unit can climb back out again.
D) If the transport is assaulted, and there's a fire point, the unit can Overwatch from inside.
E) If the transport suffers various damage results, the unit embarked suffers specified effects.
F) The rules for objectives have a specific exception stating that a squad in a transport isn't allowed to hold or contest an objective, even if they're in range.

They are clearly in play.

If a Farseer is in a Falcon, he can still cast Doom, Fortune or Guide, measuring from the hull. If a squad of IG Veterans is in a Chimera, they are still in play and can shoot their weapons out the top hatch. If a Sanguinary Priest is in a Rhino, his Chalice still gives its effect, in a 6" radius from the hull. These units are all still in the area of play, in the transport, still interacting and taking actions within certain specified limits.

When handling the physical models, because transport models are generally not built to allow you actually putting the models inside, you instead remove the models from the table surface to represent that the unit is now inside the vehicle model.

Alright, so we've established Obryon Ghostwalking next to a NS in which Zahndrekh in embarked will benefit from his Vargard's Duty rule and not scatter.
... but what happens if the NS is shot down while they're still embarked?
Obviously Zahndrekh's unit will go back into reserves... but do they sustain damage from the crash? (if they do, I can see the argument for the Vargard's Duty being flawless. If not, that suggests that Zahndrek was not physically onboard, thus giving credence to the argument that he SHOULDN'T be able to abuse the Vargard's Duty rule that way).

You have to check with your TO or league organizer, or agree with your opponent. There have been multiple enormous threads which have gone round and round in circles.

Also email GW and hopefully it'll make it into a FAQ update at some point.

I do agree with you, though, that most opponents will expect that if you get the benefits of being embarked for using the Varguard's Duty, that you also get the detriment of eating crash wounds if it gets shot down.

Of course, even if your TO or pickup game opponent insists that they don't count as being in play, you can still Zoom 36" onto the table, disembark the Nemesor's unit with Invasion Beams, and then teleport Obryron's unit near them with no scatter.

Mannahnin wrote:
A) You can measure the range of effects to and from them by measuring to the hull.
B) They can shoot out of fire points.
C) The unit can climb back out again.
D) If the transport is assaulted, and there's a fire point, the unit can Overwatch from inside.
E) If the transport suffers various damage results, the unit embarked suffers specified effects.
F) The rules for objectives have a specific exception stating that a squad in a transport isn't allowed to hold or contest an objective, even if they're in range.

They are clearly in play.

1) If a Farseer is in a Falcon, he can still cast Doom, Fortune or Guide, measuring from the hull.
2) If a squad of IG Veterans is in a Chimera, they are still in play and can shoot their weapons out the top hatch.
3) If a Sanguinary Priest is in a Rhino, his Chalice still gives its effect, in a 6" radius from the hull.

From a fluff perspective? certainly, they must be in the transport as that is it's intended function! i agree there completely.
By RAW However?
I)The transport rules literally state that the unit itself is removed from the table and set aside.
II) The transport rules do 'not' state anywhere within them that the removed unit still counts as being 'in play' for any purpose.

A) You can measure range 'involving the embarked unit' to and from the hull of the vehicle. That is not synonymous with 'treat the embarked unit as if it was in play' however.
B) Covered by the 'Fire Point' rules, which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including shooting) with a unit that isn't in play.
C) Covered by the 'Transport' rules, which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including movement) with a unit that isn't in play.
D) Covered by the 'Fire Point' rules, which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including shooting) with a unit that isn't in play.
E) Covered by the 'Transport' rules, which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including assigning wounds/damage results) with a unit that isn't in play.
F) The rules for objectives state that scoring and/or denial units do not count as such (as scoring/denial units) when they are embarked on a vehicle, and vehicles themselves do not count as scoring or denial units in general. (with a couple mission-specific exceptions) There is no specific indication there that the models embarked on a transport are considered to be in play.

1) If these are PSAs? There is a specific exception for them too. If those require LOS? then no you cannot cast them from inside the vehicle unless there is an FAQ or rule which states you can.
2) Covered by the 'Fire Point' rules, which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including shooting) with a unit that isn't in play.
3) Covered by the Blood Angel FAQ and the 'Transport' rules which offers a specific exception to the general prohibition against doing anything (including determining the effect of a special ability) with a unit that isn't in play.

Long story short: You've provided a lengthly list of exceptions to the general rule about units effecting the battlefield when not in play, but have not proven that there is a rule anywhere that 'explicitly' states that a unit removed from play via the 'Transport' embarkation rules still counts as being 'in' play for other rules.

No, I've provided a list of examples of how the rules make exhaustively clear and obvious that the unit is still in play. All these rules consistently demonstrate and represent this simple and intuitive concept. That a unit on a battlefield, which climbs into a vehicle on that same battlefield, is still on that battlefield.

It's not in Reserve, and it's not dead. The only remaining option is in play, embarked.

 Mannahnin wrote:
No, I've provided a list of examples of how the rules make exhaustively clear and obvious that the unit is still in play. All these rules consistently demonstrate and represent this simple and intuitive concept.

Hardly; not a single one of those examples you've quoted explicitly indicates that the embarked unit is treated as in play. Given not a single one of them ever actuallys states that 'simple and intuitive concept', I'm surprised you believe they are definitive examples of such.

Quite apart from all of that however:
You can determine range to and from a unit embarked on a transport by measuring to the vehicles' hull. That said; how are you seeing permission to measure the range to Zandrekhs' model (note, not 'unit') doing so? The 'Varguards Duty' only allows you deepstrike within 6" of Zandrekh, you are not given permission within Obryons' rules to deepstrike within 6" of his unit. (which is the only thing the rules support measuring range to while they are embarked on a transport)

I apologize if my tone was unfriendly.

You can choose to read all the ways in which a unit embarked in a transport interacts with the game as a laundry list of exceptions, for a unit which is not in play, or you can read them as a consistent series of rulings for how units which are still in play, but whose models are not presently on the board, interact with the game,

Your interpretation would result in a lot of rules simply not functioning- like Doom, Fortune and Guide from inside a transport, Teleport Homers from inside transports, Sanguinary Priests in transports, etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum. It also invites the question- where IS the unit then? There are only three states for a model in this game- in play, in Reserve, or dead. There is no additional "holding" state for units in transports.

Seriously, try running this idea by your local TO. The way you're arguing is simply not how the game works or is played.

 Mannahnin wrote:
This works fine. Of course you need to rely on your Reserve rolls for Zandrekh to show up before you can use it.

The similar combo NecronLord is thinking of is a Locator Beacon on a Stormraven or Drop Pod, which can guide in Deep Striking units, but Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers have to be on the table at the start of the turn (before Reserves move on) to be used. The Nemesor has no such restriction.

No. I said exactly to that which I was referring to. Nemesor works exactly like a Teleport Homer, and unless GW directly FAQ's it differently, we have only that type of equipment to refer to for precedent in how the rules function. Not to mention that the unit is not actually on the table and fluffwise isn't even in the vehicle.

When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported. If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull

There. Measure Obyron from the Hull of Zandrekh's transport. Problem solved.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
This works fine. Of course you need to rely on your Reserve rolls for Zandrekh to show up before you can use it.

The similar combo NecronLord is thinking of is a Locator Beacon on a Stormraven or Drop Pod, which can guide in Deep Striking units, but Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers have to be on the table at the start of the turn (before Reserves move on) to be used. The Nemesor has no such restriction.

No. I said exactly to that which I was referring to. Nemesor works exactly like a Teleport Homer...

...except that a Teleport Homer says in its rules that it has to start the turn on the table to be used. And Varguard's Duty does not have that limitation. Which makes the exact opposite case that you're arguing- that a Homer or Locator Beacon would work fine flying onto the table if they didn't have that additional rule.

azazel the cat wrote:

There. Measure Obyron from the Hull of Zandrekh's transport. Problem solved.

Not really, as that is measuring range to zandrekhs' unit, not the model himself.

Jebus Cryst, Games Workshop, get your Please don't work around the swear filter. Thanks Reds8n together, already.
(somebody have the email address for their FAQ request department?)

 Mannahnin wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
This works fine. Of course you need to rely on your Reserve rolls for Zandrekh to show up before you can use it.

The similar combo NecronLord is thinking of is a Locator Beacon on a Stormraven or Drop Pod, which can guide in Deep Striking units, but Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers have to be on the table at the start of the turn (before Reserves move on) to be used. The Nemesor has no such restriction.

No. I said exactly to that which I was referring to. Nemesor works exactly like a Teleport Homer...

...except that a Teleport Homer says in its rules that it has to start the turn on the table to be used. And Varguard's Duty does not have that limitation. Which makes the exact opposite case that you're arguing- that a Homer or Locator Beacon would work fine flying onto the table if they didn't have that additional rule.

Good luck with that holding up at a tournament, or an FAQ entry.

 Neorealist wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

There. Measure Obyron from the Hull of Zandrekh's transport. Problem solved.

Not really, as that is measuring range to zandrekhs' unit, not the model himself.

There is no difference, as the model itself can be anywhere on the hull.

Fragile wrote:There is no difference, as the model itself can be anywhere on the hull.

wat?

Are people these days gluing their zandrekh models to the hulls of their nightscythes now? has that somehow became a thing?



The rules for transports say you can measure range to the embarked unit using the hull of the vehicle. Obyrons' special rule on the other hand requires you to check if his model is within 6" of zandrekh. Note, it doesn't say 'zandrekh's unit', or the 'nightscythe he rode in on' for that matter.

 Neorealist wrote:

Fragile wrote:There is no difference, as the model itself can be anywhere on the hull.

wat?

Are people these days gluing their zandrekh models to the hulls of their nightscythes now? has that somehow became a thing?



The rules for transports say you can measure range to the embarked unit using the hull of the vehicle. Obyrons' special rule on the other hand requires you to check if his model is within 6" of zandrekh. Note, it doesn't say 'zandrekh's unit', or the 'nightscythe he rode in on' for that matter.

Well, neither do many rules that require you to measure from a model. *Shrug*