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Fragile wrote:Well, neither do many rules that require you to measure from a model. *Shrug*

perhaps, but therein lies the issue: You have permission within the rules to figure out the range to zandrekhs' unit when it is embarked on a nightscythe, but how do you know if your obyron model is within 6" of zandrekh's model itself? You don't. Or more accurately, you 'can't', as the model has been set aside and is no longer on the table once its' unit is embarked on the nightscythe.

I understand that some people would prefer an explicit RAW citation here. Those are fairly rare in 40k. Thankfully, this rule has many, many related rules and faq entries that can be used to present a strong, compelling argument. (As has been done above and when this issue was discussed when the idea was first proposed using Zandrekh in a CCB)






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Neorealist wrote: You have permission within the rules to figure out the range to zandrekhs' unit when it is embarked on a nightscythe, but how do you know if your obyron model is within 6" of zandrekh's model itself? You don't. Or more accurately, you 'can't', as the model has been set aside and is no longer on the table once its' unit is embarked on the nightscythe.

You can.

First consider how you would do it if Zahndrekh was the only thing in the NightScythe. Per the Embarking rules on p78 of the BRB, you would measure from the hull.

Second, consider the disembarking rules for ICs on p79. They can split off of the joined squad and stay inside or exit separately.

Thirdly, consider the Firing Point rules on p78 and p82 for open topped vehicles. Models embarked on a transport can freely move around inside a transport to fire from different fire points. For open topped vehichles, shooting range is measured from any point on the hull, just as in the the embarking rule for measuring distances for special rules on p78

Forth and finally, consider a stationary open-topped transport with an embarked model with a Heavy weapon (like a ML). On turn 1, the ML fires shooting out the right side at full BS. On turn 2, the ML fires out the left at full BS.

You raise some good points, but i have another for you:

Which statement is clearer in intent; either as an indication that the unit is removed from the table or that it remains in play:

1) "...When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported..."
2) "...If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull..."
3) ...a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point and the other transported models cannot fire. Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself...

I realise there is a plethora of rules which allow the embarked unit to interact with models on the board. All of these rules have one thing in common however; they (at best) 'imply' that the unit is counted as being on the board, not a single one ever 'states' such. Unfortunately for such arguments, the reverse is not the case: the rules are quite clear about the unit being removed from the table and thus no longer in play.

 Neorealist wrote:
You raise some good points, but i have another for you:

Which statement is clearer in intent; either as an indication that the unit is removed from the table or that it remains in play:

1) "...When the unit embarks, remove it from the table and place it aside, making a note that the unit is being transported..."
2) "...If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull..."
3) ...a single passenger can fire out of each Fire Point and the other transported models cannot fire. Ranges and line of sight are measured from the Fire Point itself...

I realise there is a plethora of rules which allow the embarked unit to interact with models on the board. All of these rules have one thing in common however; they (at best) 'imply' that the unit is counted as being on the board, not a single one ever 'states' such. Unfortunately for such arguments, the reverse is not the case: the rules are quite clear about the unit being removed from the table and thus no longer in play.

But most abilities that have you use proximity to a model (or equipment) state they have to be on the table. Black Templar Marshall/Castellan leadership - Has to be on the table. Teleport Homers - Has to be on the table. Even psychic hoods have a specific entry for when the unit is embarked. Now obviously you couldn't draw distance from zahndrekh if he was in reserves, but nothing states (such as other rules that do) that he has to be on the table, so you're arguing a point of that sentence that doesn't really matter.

Really? If it doesn't matter where Zahndrekh is located or even if he is on the board at all; can you explain how you would put another model (Obyron in this case) within 6" of his location if there is no specific location to be within 6" of?

 Neorealist wrote:
Really? If it doesn't matter where Zahndrekh is located or even if he is on the board at all; can you explain how you would put another model (Obyron in this case) within 6" of his location if there is no specific location to be within 6" of?

It's....the vehicle. As the rule says, you measure from the hull to determine ranges that aren't for shooting for a unit that is embarked.

Here, let's look at the other rules that zahndrekh has -
Adaptive/counter tactics: "in which zahndrekh is on the battlefield".
Phased Reinforcements: "If zahndrekh is on the battlefield"

So, they remembered to put that wording in for those abilities on Zahndrekh but left it out for Obryon's ability?

Ah, but i remind you once again: 'The Vargards Duty' does not measure range to Zandrekhs' unit, it measures it to Zandrekh himself. 'Measuring to Zandrekhs' model' is not one of the things being embarked on a transport allows you to do for embarked units.

There is a distinct difference there (which i've mentioned a few times now) that people seem to be willing to conflate for some reason.

 Mannahnin wrote:
It doesn't. Units embarked on a transport are considered (for rules purposes) to be where the transport is, and you measure effects like that from the hull of the vehicle. The Necron FAQ still makes clear that the unit is considered to be embarked in the Night Scythe. Read the Invasion Beams special rule.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2570047a_Necrons_v1.1.pdf

For a moment forget the rules clarifications on this thread. GW had first better explain the opening line.

NECRONS Official Update for 6th Edition, Version 1.1 wrote:
Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in.

Who the feth are they kidding, "strive to ensure that our codexes are perfect", is it comedy hour in Nottingham?

 Neorealist wrote:
Ah, but i remind you once again: 'The Vargards Duty' does not measure range to Zandrekhs' unit, it measures it to Zandrekh himself. 'Measuring to Zandrekhs' model' is not one of the things being embarked on a transport allows you to do for embarked units; only measuring to his unit.

There is a distinct difference there (which i've mentioned a few times now) that people seem to be willing to conflate for some reason.

Yes, you have, and when did zahndrekh stop being a unit just because he's joined a squad? Your point is either that he can't do it while zahndrekh is embarked or he can't do it while zahndrekh is in a squad. Either way you're going to run into a problem.

Zahndrekh is a unit. So you can therefore measure to be hull of any vehicle he is embarked in to determine any special effects regarding him or his wargear.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'ed!

Zandrekh never stops being part of a unit (composed of just himself and the models you've attached him to, if any) and I'm not saying he does.

What I 'am' saying, is that him being (in) a unit isn't the characteristic that Obyrons' ability is checking for, to allow him (Obyron) to deepstrike without error.

There isn't any explicit rules justification to treat the nightscythe 'as' Zahndrekh; which would be necessary for 'The Vargards Duty' to work the way some have suggested in this thread.

Neorealist wrote:There isn't any explicit rules justification to treat the nightscythe 'as' Zahndrekh; which would be necessary for 'The Vargards Duty' to work the way some have suggested in this thread.

I think most of the Posters in the PRO position are not calling for treating the nightscythe 'as' Zahndrekh. Rather, they are asking to apply the rule from p78 "...If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull..."

Zahndrekh is a unit of 1 model that can join other Units via the IC rules.

Before we go any farther, let me ask, do you have any problems with the PRO position on this question if ]Zahndrekh is alone in the Nightscythe? That may help us understand where you are drawing the line/having a problem.

my stance at it's simplest:

1) Obyron's ability does not check if Zandrekhs' unit is within 6", it checks if Zandrekh (aka, the model itself) is within 6". (it's an important distinction)
2) The rules for transports indicate that the embarked unit is removed from the table.
3) Therefore, there is no 'Zandrekh' model on the table for 'The Vargards Duty' to check for proximity to.
4) The Transport rules allowing you to check range to the embarked unit from the vehicles hull, but do not allow you to check the range to a given model; only the unit as a whole. (regardless of wether that unit is currently just Zandrekh or the HQ + assorted minions)
5) Being able to determine range (ie: be within 6") of Zandrekh's unit does not 'necessarily' mean Obyron is within 6" of Zandrekh himself, which is why point 1 is an important distinction.

 Neorealist wrote:

Fragile wrote:There is no difference, as the model itself can be anywhere on the hull.

wat?

Are people these days gluing their zandrekh models to the hulls of their nightscythes now? has that somehow became a thing?



The rules for transports say you can measure range to the embarked unit using the hull of the vehicle. Obyrons' special rule on the other hand requires you to check if his model is within 6" of zandrekh. Note, it doesn't say 'zandrekh's unit', or the 'nightscythe he rode in on' for that matter.

So, If Zandrekh wanted to shoot Oberyn, how would you determine if he was in range ??

Fragile wrote:So, If Zandrekh wanted to shoot Oberyn, how would you determine if he was in range ??

(presuming we are sticking with the scenario that Zandrekh is in a nightscythe)
Zandrekh in your scenario would be out of luck, for a few reasons:
1) It's not legal to target your own units
2) There are no special rules associated with the nightsycthe allowing units to shoot out of it.
3) Zandrekhs' model isn't currently on the table and therefore there is no model to determine LOS from.

So in short? i'd say 'no, you cannot do that' to your question.

 Neorealist wrote:

Fragile wrote:So, If Zandrekh wanted to shoot Oberyn, how would you determine if he was in range ??

(presuming we are sticking with the scenario that Zandrekh is in a nightscythe)
Zandrekh in your scenario would be out of luck, for a few reasons:
1) It's not legal to target your own units
2) There are no special rules associated with the nightsycthe allowing units to shoot out of it.
3) Zandrekhs' model isn't currently on the table and therefore there is no model to determine LOS from.

So in short? i'd say 'no, you cannot do that' to your question.

Ok, an opposing obyron and zahndrekh is in a ghost ark.

Main rulebook FAQ page 5 wrote:Q: Do embarked passengers with ‘area of effect’ wargear, such as the Big Mek’s Kustom Force Field, measure the range of such items from the hull of the transport they are embarked upon? (p78)
A: Yes.

Neorealiast, you're simply wrong on this. Your interpretation clashes with the rulebook, the FAQ, and every player I've seen field Eldar in the last 10+ years and Blood Angels in their current codex.

 Neorealist wrote:
Zandrekh never stops being part of a unit (composed of just himself and the models you've attached him to, if any) and I'm not saying he does.

What I 'am' saying, is that him being (in) a unit isn't the characteristic that Obyrons' ability is checking for, to allow him (Obyron) to deepstrike without error.

There isn't any explicit rules justification to treat the nightscythe 'as' Zahndrekh; which would be necessary for 'The Vargards Duty' to work the way some have suggested in this thread.

But it's not obyron's ability that references the word "unit", it's the rules for embarking. Zahndrekh being in a unit embarked on a vehicle has zero bearing on how obyron's ability interacts with him, as it will be identical in use whether it was just Nemesor or Nemesor+Unit on the vehicle.

No one said you're treating it "as" anything, we're just following the rules for embarked units.

Mannahnin wrote: Neorealiast, you're simply wrong on this. Your interpretation clashes with the rulebook, the FAQ, and every player I've seen field Eldar in the last 10+ years and Blood Angels in their current codex.

Well, it's entirely possible i may (or may not) be wrong, sure. That said, my interpretation is consistent with what it actually says within the 'Transport' rules and is therefore as 'book-legal' as these discussions get. As for how other players would play their armies, isn't that more of a HYWPI opinion than a RAW one?

It's simple really: the transport rules say your unit is not on the table when they are in a transport, but that there are a bunch of specially granted actions the unit can take from that situation. Being able to take specific actions like firing through a fire-point or use wargear with a specific radius does not auto-magically mean that the models are considered to be in play despite the very clear rule saying that they are not.

 Neorealist wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Neorealiast, you're simply wrong on this. Your interpretation clashes with the rulebook, the FAQ, and every player I've seen field Eldar in the last 10+ years and Blood Angels in their current codex.

Well, it's entirely possible i may (or may not) be wrong, sure. That said, my interpretation is consistent with what it actually says within the 'Transport' rules and is therefore as 'book-legal' as these discussions get. As for how other players would play their armies, isn't that more of a HYWPI opinion than a RAW one?

It's simple really: the transport rules say your unit is not on the table when they are in a transport, but that there are a bunch of specially granted actions the unit can take from that situation. Being able to take specific actions like firing through a fire-point or use wargear with a specific radius does not auto-magically mean that the models are considered to be in play despite the very clear rule saying that they are not.

Its not a HYWPI at all, you're just trying to argue that the color blue is in fact black. However we all know it's blue.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: Its not a HYWPI at all, you're just trying to argue that the color blue is in fact black. However we all know it's blue.

I'm sorry; can you clarify that within the context of something i've actually said please? I most certainly did not reference colours let alone claim they are anything but what they actually are.

 Neorealist wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Neorealiast, you're simply wrong on this. Your interpretation clashes with the rulebook, the FAQ, and every player I've seen field Eldar in the last 10+ years and Blood Angels in their current codex.

Well, it's entirely possible i may (or may not) be wrong, sure. That said, my interpretation is consistent with what it actually says within the 'Transport' rules and is therefore as 'book-legal' as these discussions get. As for how other players would play their armies, isn't that more of a HYWPI opinion than a RAW one?

It's simple really: the transport rules say your unit is not on the table when they are in a transport, but that there are a bunch of specially granted actions the unit can take from that situation. Being able to take specific actions like firing through a fire-point or use wargear with a specific radius does not auto-magically mean that the models are considered to be in play despite the very clear rule saying that they are not.

If they aren't in play and they aren't in reserves then how are they shooting? Why would they need "fearless" in a transport if they're not in play? Why can you move a guy up to 2" in between fire points but still fire a heavy weapon without snap shot? Why are they affected by crew shaken/stunned results?

I know that these things have "rules" for them in place, but they MUST be in play still for these things to exist. Especially the Fearless rule.

 Neorealist wrote:

Fragile wrote:So, If Zandrekh wanted to shoot Oberyn, how would you determine if he was in range ??

(presuming we are sticking with the scenario that Zandrekh is in a nightscythe)
Zandrekh in your scenario would be out of luck, for a few reasons:
1) It's not legal to target your own units
2) There are no special rules associated with the nightsycthe allowing units to shoot out of it.
3) Zandrekhs' model isn't currently on the table and therefore there is no model to determine LOS from.

So in short? i'd say 'no, you cannot do that' to your question.

LOL, a good evasive answer. Simply put, if there is a unit in a transport vehicle, range can be measured to any target from a fire point (of hull on open topped). If the range from the shooter at a Fire point or hull to a target is 6", then the reverse is true.

Kevin949 wrote:If they aren't in play and they aren't in reserves then how are they shooting?

There is a rule (those for fire-points and/or open-topped vehicles) that allows them to?

Kevin949 wrote:Why would they need "fearless" in a transport if they're not in play?

Because they can take wounds while in the transport and it'd be horrifically unfair if they are instantly destroyed or some other bizarre interaction between the 'Transports' rule-set and those which determine what happens when a unit breaks morale?

Kevin949 wrote:Why can you move a guy up to 2" in between fire points but still fire a heavy weapon without snap shot?

You can't. You are not allowed to 'move' models while they are in a Transport. (well, apart from embarking/disembarking them)

Kevin949 wrote:Why are they affected by crew shaken/stunned results?

There is a rule (those for transports) that forces them to?

Your rationale fails Occam's Razor.

We can either look at the rules of the game, and the situation they are representing, and say:

A) This unit is in play, on the battlefield, interacting with other units, in specified ways restricted based on its position now being indicated by the transport which contains it.
B) The unit is not in play, it is in some completely unspecified and undescribed place, which is not in play, not in Reserves, but not destroyed. And all the rules describing how its in the vehicle, and how to interact with that unit while it's in that vehicle, are individual special cases, not indicative of a single consistent concept (it's in the vehicle), but all standing on their own with no interrelation.

It's absurd.

Where are you claiming the unit actually is, while it's embarked?

I will ask again, do you have any problem with the PRO position if Zandrekh is in the NightScythe by himself?

A yes or no here will simplify the NO responces

Neorealist wrote:1)Obyron's ability does not check if Zandrekhs' unit is within 6", it checks if Zandrekh (aka, the model itself) is within 6". (it's an important distinction)

This seems to be an important distinction that you have made yourself. The rule says "... does not scatter provided he aims to arrive within 6" of Zandrekh." p61 Necron Codex No mention of Unit or Model, just the name.

Skip that for now, but note that p3 shows that Units are formed by grouping one or more Models together.

Neorealist wrote:2) The rules for transports indicate that the embarked unit is removed from the table.
3) Therefore, there is no 'Zandrekh' model on the table for 'The Vargards Duty' to check for proximity to

Good thing there is the below rule on p78

Neorealist wrote:4) The Transport rules allowing you to check range to the embarked unit from the vehicles hull, but do not allow you to check the range to a given model; only the unit as a whole. (regardless of wether that unit is currently just Zandrekh or the HQ + assorted minions)

Because it doesn't need to. You can pick any point on the hull because an embarked unit is set aside per you #2 and GW kindly provided us with #4 to resolve these problems.

Neorealist wrote:5) Being able to determine range (ie: be within 6") of Zandrekh's unit does not 'necessarily' mean Obyron is within 6" of Zandrekh himself, which is why point 1 is an important distinction.

And now we are back to my original question.

Do you have any problem with the PRO position if Zandrekh is in the NightScythe by himself?

Mannahnin wrote: Where are you claiming the unit actually is, while it's embarked?

Set aside at a convenient table edge (or a storage case perhaps?) along with a note of some sort indicating the unit is being transported.

 Neorealist wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:If they aren't in play and they aren't in reserves then how are they shooting?

There is a rule (those for fire-points and/or open-topped vehicles) that allows them to?

Kevin949 wrote:Why would they need "fearless" in a transport if they're not in play?

Because they can take wounds while in the transport and it'd be horrifically unfair if they are instantly destroyed or some other bizarre interaction between the 'Transports' rule-set and those which determine what happens when a unit breaks morale?

Kevin949 wrote:Why can you move a guy up to 2" in between fire points but still fire a heavy weapon without snap shot?

You can't. You are not allowed to 'move' models while they are in a Transport. (well, apart from embarking/disembarking them)

Kevin949 wrote:Why are they affected by crew shaken/stunned results?

There is a rule (those for transports) that forces them to?

Preface: Yes, I said there were rules governing these and that those rules included *must* assume the models are still in play. If a model isn't in play, it's unable to *do* anything or affect anything.

I'm unaware of anything can target/affect units in a transport that also causes wounds outside of gets hot! and those don't cause morale checks since it wasn't a shooting attack.

Yes, I know they aren't actually moving, but there is still a space differentiation between the fire points that is conveniently not addressed for units inside, especially those with heavy weapons. Just furthers the point that "the vehicles hull" takes place of "the unit" (not counts as) for measuring purposes. The main purpose for this comment is to note that at any point in time any member of any unit on a transport can be anywhere within that transport as deemed necessary by the controlling player.

Coming full circle, see first sentence of response. If they weren't *in play* still then these vehicle effects wouldn't matter on the passengers as they're not anywhere defined.

I mean seriously, what do you think you CAN measure from the hull if you can't measure for an ability that has no stipulation it has to be "on the battlefield"?

foolishmortal wrote:Do you have any problem with the PRO position if Zandrekh is in the NightScythe by himself?

I believe that the Transport rules only allow you to draw range to the embarked unit as a whole, not to any specific model found within the embarked unit, and this holds true even if there is only one model in it. As such, I do not think you are given permission within the Transport rules to draw range to 'Zandrekhs' model from the nightscythes' hull for the purposes of 'The Vargards Duty'.

It is the fundamental difference between being able to determine the range to Zandrehks' unit (which you have permission to do). And being able to determine range to Zandrehk himself (which you do not have permission to do, even if the result would be the exact same spot as you would have determined via the previous sentence).

Kevin949 wrote: I'm unaware of anything can target/affect units in a transport that also causes wounds outside of gets hot! and those don't cause morale checks since it wasn't a shooting attack.

PSAs, mainly, often it's due to Perils of the Warp. That said: any time a unit loses 25% or more of it's models in a given movement or shooting phase that unit needs to make a morale check at the end of the phase regardless of what caused those casualties. (so wounds from 'Gets hot' count, as do Perils and other sources of self-inflicted wounds).

Neorealist wrote:

Kevin949 wrote: I'm unaware of anything can target/affect units in a transport that also causes wounds outside of gets hot! and those don't cause morale checks since it wasn't a shooting attack.

PSAs, mainly, often it's due to Perils of the Warp. That said: any time a unit loses 25% or more of it's models in a given movement or shooting phase that unit needs to make a morale check at the end of the phase regardless of what caused those casualties. (so wounds from 'Gets hot' count, as do Perils and other sources of self-inflicted wounds).

The Unshakable Nerve rule on p78 is probably more helpful here. Embarked units are Fearless