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Well we've had some time now. What do we think of the premeasuring change?

I'd have to say that our club has had a rather odd shift. Our games have gone much quicker. Whether that's from 6th ed's brutality or (as I suspect) because I have several worryworts who would debate every shot/range before firing in 5th ed, now when moving, shooting, etc, they just measure then go.

Dislike it. I always liked guessing ranges. Adds skill and more suspense. Sometimes, you just guessed 1'' short and lose your squad in return...awesome times back then.

40k should be less forgiving.

I love it, but with one caveat. Random charge distance must stay.

I'm somewhere between like it and neutral. Guessing ranges is a standard part of a lot of miniatures games, but I never really felt like it added a *whole* lot of depth beyond adding a bit of uncertainty. I didn't really care for how it added the ability to visually measure distance as an important skill, though... that always felt ancillary to actually playing the game. Some people loved it. (For the record, I was fairly average at guessing.) Random charge ranges introduce uncertainty in the place of uncertain distances, and some sort of random range or range modifiers would re-introduce uncertainty to shooting. That said I absolutely do not like *how* random assault ranges are now (seriously, the variance on 2d6 is ridiculous.)

In addition, 40k now has the tape-measure shuffle. I've only had to play against it once, but I had forgotten how annoying it can be. Watching some guy carefully measure to make sure his models are *exactly* 36.1" away from your 36" threat range unit makes me want to take away his dice... but, hey, it's in the rules now so there's not much that you can do about it except attempt to avoid playing against people that do that.

I like it, largely because it means that victory is now more dependent on good list-building and tactics opposed to being able to approximate exactly how far 6 inches is (which is a lot harder in metric countries, which accounts for.... pretty much the entire world apart from the US and a couple of African nations.

I'm neutral on it. I like in in theory (doesn't needlessly punish newer players), but the existence of pre-measuring requires random assault ranges, which I absolutely hate.

If they did something to make assault armies worth taking again, then I'd be fine with it, though.

I didn't like the idea of it, but once I started playing games with it I liked it a lot. When there are other factors of uncertainty (charge ranges and the like) it's good to be able to establish the distance whenever and wherever you like. It makes sense in-universe too, since these guys would have rangefinders, spotters, and similar support in the 41st millennium.

neutral . slows down the game , but also punishes assault armies and I play IG , so am all for assault armies being bad.

I like premeaseuring, IF the game is written for it, or its implemented elegantly and effectivley.

As it lets players excersise thier mental acruitiy , without relying on guessing ranges to add the 'excitment' to a 'dull' game...

But as GW plc couldnt possibly allow 40k to be elegant ,intuitive and tacticaly diverse.

They implemented pre measuring with the use of the most awful countermeasure.RANDOMNESS!!!

Rather than use a simple 'pass a motivation (morale) test' to allow the unit to assault.(Fail they stay put.)

If they'd made assault range something like D6+6 inches, or even 2d6 pickhighest plus 3", or anything other than what we have really, just to make sure you have at least a minimum distance you could move always move (instead of the dreaded snake eyes), while still keeping it random so people weren't always "just" out of assault range, I would be 100% ok with it.

However, the idiotic way they just gave us 2d6" and you don't move up if you fail the charge just grates me. I've never had this problem yet, as I play orks and I can always get that fleet reroll when I need it, but I'm still dreading the day I screw myself on that charge roll...

I've gotten snake eyes trying to charge a MM dread that was 3 inches away. One of my terminators got a bucketful of bad time

Completely in favor, since it stops a lot of cheating. Now you don't have to worry about models mysteriously moving within 12" when you thought they were 13", you can demonstrate the 13" before your opponent touches a model and know that they can't be any closer. Just like you don't have to worry about your opponent measuring range for a unit for the sole purpose of "accidentally" moving the tape measure near another one of their units to check range for it, everyone just gets to measure openly at any time.


As for random charge range, I love it and my only complaint is that it should only be D6. Cry more assault army fans, your idiotic melee armies have no place on a battlefield where guns exist and I approve of anything GW does to destroy the entire concept of an "assault army" and reduce assaults to a rare event to wipe the last survivors of shooting off a critical objective.

 Peregrine wrote:

As for random charge range, I love it and my only complaint is that it should only be D6. Cry more assault army fans, your idiotic melee armies have no place on a battlefield where guns exist and I approve of anything GW does to destroy the entire concept of an "assault army" and reduce assaults to a rare event to wipe the last survivors of shooting off a critical objective.

Railguns help you compensate don't they? I hope GW takes a step towards assaulty armies, because whats more fun than a group of bezerkers or wyches crashing into a group of death company or black templars

 TheAngrySquig wrote:
I hope GW takes a step towards assaulty armies, because whats more fun than a group of bezerkers or wyches crashing into a group of death company or black templars

A squad of guardsmen standing around watching through binoculars and laughing as a bombing run from the Imperial Navy blows away the entire squad of melee idiots several miles from their target?

Peregrine wrote: I approve of anything GW does to destroy the entire concept of an "assault army" and reduce assaults to a rare event to wipe the last survivors of shooting off a critical objective.

There's already a game for you called Flames of War. Saying that chopping has no place in 40k is as bizarre as saying that shooting has no place in 40k.

I mean, really, one of the most iconic images of 40k at the moment is...



You don't get much more grimdark than that.

meanwhile, if you wanted to play a game where two gunlines paired off against each other, there are some excellent 18th century naval simulation games out there.

I don't have a problem with pre-measuring, and I like that it removes any of those 'grey' areas covering when and where you are allowed to measure stuff.

It's just getting used to the idea that's been a struggle.

 Ailaros wrote:
There's already a game for you called Flames of War.

Not 28mm. Not interested.

You don't get much more grimdark than that.

That's not grimdark, that's fanboy fantasy. Grimdark needs to have more futility and failure, like that space marine trying to give a heroic speech and getting his head blown off by a sniper before he can take one step towards the enemy lines.

(And yes, the only thing I like more than assault armies getting shot to death is heroes getting killed in pathetic ways.)

meanwhile, if you wanted to play a game where two gunlines paired off against each other, there are some excellent 18th century naval simulation games out there.

Who said anything about gunlines? I want tanks, aircraft, lots of movement. Just movement to get into a better shooting position, not movement to go hit someone with a sword.

 insaniak wrote:
It's just getting used to the idea that's been a struggle.

This. I can't even count the number of times I've forgotten to measure range. Just like overwatch.

That's not grimdark, that's fanboy fantasy. Grimdark needs to have more futility and failure, like that space marine trying to give a heroic speech and getting his head blown off by a sniper before he can take one step towards the enemy lines.

that is too good for the sm , it should be more like , marine hops out of his transport . all glory , shiny armor and purity seals flaping in the wind with a back banner and an ax the size of a small car . looks at sky ... and because his armor weights a lot , he slips on the mud . hits head on transport door . dies . while doing that the pin of the kraks he was carring goes *ping* chain explosion inside transport. transport goes boom . other transports that just stoped/landed start going boom too. IG dude carring two buckets of grub for his m8s goes "damn marines, stupid mutants". death to the assault phase .



ah and in deed is should be d6 . why should anyone be able to move faster when he is trying to do a precise staby stab with his light poker?

 Peregrine wrote:
Completely in favor, since it stops a lot of cheating. Now you don't have to worry about your opponent measuring range for a unit for the sole purpose of "accidentally" moving the tape measure near another one of their units to check range for it, everyone just gets to measure openly at any time.

Like it, with some reservations. It does make some people spend even more time on deciding what to do with their units... but at least they no longer have to pretend they're not pre-measuring when everyone can see the measure is locked at the shooting/assault distance they want to know in the movement phase.

Meh is how I see it, I don't think it has made much difference in games I have play and watch other then make some people measure a lot more.
But I also don't think I have ever seen some people as bad at distance as some people seem to say they are, so maybe they need it.

 Peregrine wrote:

This. I can't even count the number of times I've forgotten to measure range. Just like overwatch.

Overwatch
Measuring range
and Precision Shots/Strikes

I forget the first rarely, the second often, and so far, the last always. Seriously, after every game it dawns upon me that I never once singled out my characters for Precision Shots/Strikes. It drives me nuts!

 Lobukia wrote:
I forget the first rarely, the second often, and so far, the last always. Seriously, after every game it dawns upon me that I never once singled out my characters for Precision Shots/Strikes. It drives me nuts!

I know that feeling, I've even brought dual plasma pistols before and completely forgotten about watching for 6s. Of course my worst one would be grenades. I play all-veteran IG so everyone gets a krak grenade, but have I ever used a grenade instead of a shotgun? Of course not.

Must admit, I pretty surprised that 8% see it in a negative light.

Peregrine, don't forget that this is not only a game that you enjoy. It has to be enjoyable for others too. While YOU may like the game for tanks, shooting, etc, others may like the assault armies. This does not make them wrong, they just enjoy different parts of the game than you. If anything, you should want those assault armies to be balanced to give you a good fight, not just winning with your IG because the rules are imbalanced. I have played both types of army, and I greatly prefer there to be a balance of power between the two. With some checks and balances, it makes the game much more dramatic and fun for me. I would rather lose, knowing I played at my best, than beat a handicapped opponent.

I also don't agree with your description of grimdark.. Futility and failure? I believe you have grimdark mixed up with emo/suicidal. "Grimdark"... think about the word for a minute. Literally a combination of the words "grim" and "dark". Grim, meaning a situation that seems hopeless. Dark, meaning without light. Futility you could make a case for, but failure for the sake of failing doesn't really equate to grimdark... More like slapstick comedy. The whole point of having these heroic space marines is that in the end, they are not enough to save mankind, no matter how valiantly or fervently they fight. That, to me, is grimdark. A sergeant falling on his own chainsword is not grimdark.... just stupid. Much like that rendition of the 3 Stooges they just made.

I don't like it, Really feels like it takes the piss with assault armies and removes one of the major risks for shooting armies

I'm enjoying it so far. It really helps with more fragile armies like Eldar to be able to make sure your in the position you want to be in. The whole point of certain armies is to have different elements be where they need to be when the opportunity presents itself, and with pre-mesuring it greatly helps those players out.

That said, I kind of which they would bring back guess weaponry for barrages. Not only does it make sense, but it's some times fun when your big blast lands short and decimates the squad siting in front of the tank that you were shooting at.

With 6th edition rules I like it. With everything turning more random, being able to always measure your non-random distances helps the game play overall. I would say either keep the new randomness but have measuring lengths, or go back to 6" assault and the like and keep having to guess. I miss having to guess for Artillery though, that was always fun and added an extra bit onto a good IG commander's skill.

I'm fine with someone quickly measuring something for a rough estimate, but anything too specific and it feels cheap.

Ailaros wrote:
meanwhile, if you wanted to play a game where two gunlines paired off against each other,

40K does seem to generate a player base that cannot conceptualize what other wargaming systems actually work like, lol.

Just because assault is not important, doesn't mean other games are all about Napoleonic face offs, lol. They're just more cover, movement, and tactics oriented.

 Peregrine wrote:
As for random charge range, I love it and my only complaint is that it should only be D6. Cry more assault army fans, your idiotic melee armies have no place on a battlefield where guns exist and I approve of anything GW does to destroy the entire concept of an "assault army" and reduce assaults to a rare event to wipe the last survivors of shooting off a critical objective.

What a fail of a statement in light of the Carnifex or power armour existance, not to mention magic. daemons. space elves and countless other fantasy stuff that makes your call for realism sensless (not to be mistaken with inside 40k realism which is ofc important but assault army fits perfectly to it). Also melee has its place even today in certain conditions and we have no protection from bullets to speak of, if there was a new proper armour introduced or we met creatures large in numbers and careless for their lives today, melee could be back instantly.

Also not sure why anyone would want assault out, that's dumbing down the game because of less posibilities.