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GJB are usually a terrible unit because they are usually terribly played. Too many Eldar players use their speed to stick them in the middle of the hornets nest. The speed of a guardian jetbike allows new (or bad) eldar players to use them in a 40k version of the charge of the light brigade.

That being said GJB are awesome units if used by a cautious and shrewd eldar player. They are just not a user friendly unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Hawks excel in 6th due to wound allocation. Their grenade drop when they land is great for sniping out specific models

Nope, it is not a Barrage weapon.

Sorry, didn't see this one to correct it. The blast occurs from the point that you place it, so while it's not barrage it essentially functions in the exact some manner. The blast is never "shot" it just happens at the location thus wound allocation would be from the hole.

My Local Game Store at the last tourney ruled it that it came from the direction that the Hawks Landed, which unfortunately they have never FAQed it.

I agree that GJBK units are only to be used to kill or assault things only in dire circumstances as they will krumble easily. That is why I usually use as many 3 man squads as possible and I usually stick on 1 Shuri kannon. you can usually keep them far enough away to shoot that and keep them safe. But most of the games I am flying them to hiding spots until the last turn.

 BlueDagger wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Hawks excel in 6th due to wound allocation. Their grenade drop when they land is great for sniping out specific models

Nope, it is not a Barrage weapon.

Sorry, didn't see this one to correct it. The blast occurs from the point that you place it, so while it's not barrage it essentially functions in the exact some manner. The blast is never "shot" it just happens at the location thus wound allocation would be from the hole.

Nope, it's a regular shooting attack since it has no other rules to say it isn't.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BlueDagger wrote:
Hawks excel in 6th due to wound allocation. Their grenade drop when they land is great for sniping out specific models

Nope, it is not a Barrage weapon.

Sorry, didn't see this one to correct it. The blast occurs from the point that you place it, so while it's not barrage it essentially functions in the exact some manner. The blast is never "shot" it just happens at the location thus wound allocation would be from the hole.

Nope, it's a regular shooting attack since it has no other rules to say it isn't.

A few issues with that:
- it happens in the movement phase
- it doesn't count as a shot for the number of weapons fired
- it's a wargear that triggers on DS
- where is that attack coming from? It has a range of n/a (not unlimited) and can be used the moment you declare deepstrike, so the model may not even be on the board (it never says once you have completed a deepstrike or after deepstriking)
- it doesn't require LoS and is simply placed centered on any enemy model on the board.

For all intents and purposes, the grenade is falling down on top of them, not being thrown a potential 7ft across the board.

I think it should cound as barrage, but until they FAQ it, it is unlikely to be resolved. What we really need is a new competitive codex. That would be nice.

 BlueDagger wrote:


A few issues with that:
- it happens in the movement phase
- it doesn't count as a shot for the number of weapons fired
- it's a wargear that triggers on DS
- where is that attack coming from? It has a range of n/a (not unlimited) and can be used the moment you declare deepstrike, so the model may not even be on the board (it never says once you have completed a deepstrike or after deepstriking)
- it doesn't require LoS and is simply placed centered on any enemy model on the board.

For all intents and purposes, the grenade is falling down on top of them, not being thrown a potential 7ft across the board.

Random Allocation is the rule built to handle the ambiguity of this weapon.

Touche sir, though it is still likely an oversight. The eldar codex predates barrage weaponry, but I won't hold my breath for GW to FAQ it.

 BlueDagger wrote:
Touche sir, though it is still likely an oversight. The eldar codex predates barrage weaponry, but I won't hold my breath for GW to FAQ it.

It has the contemporary notation for what became Barrage on D-Cannons and Shadow Weavers. So it would be inaccurate to equate SHGP with them since it doesn't share that notation.

Correct, guess range weaponry... where you guessed the range you were firing... which would make no sense for a SHGP to have a G identifier. Other then the guessing mechanic of the weapon all other aspects of their profile is the same. In 5th edition they acted exactly the same because the blast just happened at the location, you gathered up wounds, then wound allocated. It's only in 6th that any distinction is made because of the point of allocation.

Using random allocation will actually cause further issues because if that blast hits models on two sides of a wall you are going to have arguments about cover saves (what direction did the blast come from?). Not to mention the fact that randomizing your wounds all over the place is going to be slooooow.

 BlueDagger wrote:

Using random allocation will actually cause further issues because if that blast hits models on two sides of a wall you are going to have arguments about cover saves (what direction did the blast come from?). Not to mention the fact that randomizing your wounds all over the place is going to be slooooow.

This is a widely held misconception about how Random Allocation works. In fact, I'd say I haven't seen anyone on Dakka actually get it right.

You randomly determine one model to be the closest and origin of the attack until the effects of the attack or complete. That's it, just one random. You don't randomize every hit.

Incorrect "... that model remains the closest until the
attack ends or the model is slain. If the model is slain and there are still wounds left to allocate, simply randomise again if needs be."

There for you allocate wounds to him till he dies then randomize the next poor guy.

So to kind of steer back on track... I am guessing the general concensus is that Mech Eldar is not that viable any more?

The one thing I forgot to mention... Our local game store ran a summer tourney series with the final in October, there were 7 regular Eldar players out of ~53 players, after 6th Edition, non are running mechanized any more... Some of us switched to a different army or used allies like Dark eldar with Eldar allies or Tau and Eldar (jetbikes mostly)....
I played mostly my Orks in the tourneys except for this last one... the flyers and their point cost just made them so much more competative than the Eldar...

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
So to kind of steer back on track... I am guessing the general concensus is that ANYEldar is not that viable any more?

That's the actual truth. If you see an Eldar player winning consistently anywhere, he's so much better than everyone else that they almost shouldn't even be playing.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
So to kind of steer back on track... I am guessing the general concensus is that ANYEldar is not that viable any more?

That's the actual truth. If you see an Eldar player winning consistently anywhere, he's so much better than everyone else that they almost shouldn't even be playing.

Strictly Eldar.... sadly.... yes, I kinda agree. Eldar with allies (which is arguably not really eldar anymore) I would have to say no. That can be a very viable and win-worthy list.

So, I just bought a Mechdar army ... it was in assembly and partially complete when 6th edition came out. Seriously, like most builds with Eldar, it's an uphill battle for most games.

Perhaps the noble Footdar is better. But DE and poison can kill that, too ...

DE with poison can kill anything with a toughness which still makes Wraithlords kind of MEH... Though I will say with the list I just ran in the tourney, I practiced against a DE army with venoms, raiders, hellions and ravagers and I tabled him. Eldar still have an advantage over Dark Eldar in my mind. Yeah poison weapons are great to an extent, but even with something like grots which are T2 you still need a 4 up to wound them, those are not great odds... I will take my scatter lasers and shuriken catapults all day for that, esp. against DE as they will wound on 2 or 3ups, better than the poison weapons. The thing that sucks is that many times they are better shots than we are with our guardians and tanks so hit more easily. I still think a lot of DAKKA and as long a range as possible and a quick maneuverable army is the better way to go in 6th ed. And the vehilces are just so easy to glance to death now.

I think I will be sticking with my bike lists or foot lists.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
DE with poison can kill anything with a toughness which still makes Wraithlords kind of MEH... Though I will say with the list I just ran in the tourney, I practiced against a DE army with venoms, raiders, hellions and ravagers and I tabled him. Eldar still have an advantage over Dark Eldar in my mind. Yeah poison weapons are great to an extent, but even with something like grots which are T2 you still need a 4 up to wound them, those are not great odds... I will take my scatter lasers and shuriken catapults all day for that, esp. against DE as they will wound on 2 or 3ups, better than the poison weapons. The thing that sucks is that many times they are better shots than we are with our guardians and tanks so hit more easily. I still think a lot of DAKKA and as long a range as possible and a quick maneuverable army is the better way to go in 6th ed. And the vehilces are just so easy to glance to death now.

I think I will be sticking with my bike lists or foot lists.

Dark Eldar have some of the best, if not THE best shooting of any army right now, with the abundance of Anti Tank/Anti Infantry firepower, it can get silly. The only advantage Eldar have is, as you've said, Eldar weapons kill Dark Eldar better than the other way around. The Flimsiness of Dark Eldar really is a weakness against an Eldar opponent.

I played 6th with a mixed list but at its core was 3 falcons with EML and a BL wave serpent... With guides they were awesome. I could pick the target that needed to die - whether vehicle or infantry and all the S8 AP2-3 fire allowed me to decimate my opponent.

What did change was that I was playing manuever defensive instead of attacking. 3+ hitting made me want to stay away. I just moved back or laterally and fired my 10 TL S8 shots every turn.

Bottomline it still works but it plays vastly differently in 6th.

I can see that, you would definitely have to play them differently. I just think the new rules make holo-fields pretty meh, maybe leaving spirit stones as the only decent upgrade besides weapons.

I was lucky to have jjust played a 1850 Mechdar vs Mechdar list tonight, it was pretty funny ... we each had 2 fire prisms, 1 falcon, 3 waveserpents with Dire Avengers, Guardians, and Fire Dragons in them. We had the same generated powers from Telepathy as well ... Prescience and Forewarning!

The variance is he had 1 extra squad of Guardians, some Rangers, and Warp Spiders, while I ran 3 Dual Shuricannon Vypers, a 8 Man Jetbike Squad with a Farseer, and a 2nd Farseer with 3 Destructor Warlocks in the Falcon. It was really like chess, very slow and grueling game of Trying to glance on 6's, and shooting for 4+ on the big weapons, with Jink ... It took a while to kill stuff. I pulled a victory as I had the relic in the end, and My Jetbikes ended up soaking lots of fire and killing a few tanks in shooting/assault with the singing spears.

The funniest part of the game were the Vypers, who struggled to do much as their targets were all av 12, but they did last till turn 5, when his Rangers finished them off, which was the first effective round of shooting they had. So that was good.

Eldar tanks are too fragile in the 6th.

Falcons with holofields were almost indestructible in the 4th and 5th ed. (although in the 5th they were just pillboxes or gunboats). But now they will be gone for good by 3 glancing or penetrating hits.

In a game vs BA, a tri-las Pred glanced one of my Falcons with ease to death within 2 rounds. Mech Eldar is death in the 6th ed. So I shelved it.

I need more playtesting with my mechdar. I've gotten two games in with them against CSM/Demons and IG/GK (1500 and 2000 pts respectively) and have won both games. The CSM/Demon army was a bad matchup for my opponent, but the IG/GK was the blob squads, Vendettas, Manticore variety. I think it has a lot to do with target priority and playing the mission. Some of the units folks are writing off are serving me quite well.

Granted, I don't get to attend a larger tourney until November which will likely really test how this army will fare (11th Co tourney with 64 players).

It always depends on your opponent. But I have found IG and Necrons to be the hardest to beat in this edition with Eldar. Heck even my orcs have a hard time with them. With IG stuff is cheap and plenty. Necrons glance everything to death or their stinkin deathmarks and cryptek wound their unit of choice on 2up.. yikes. I just don't see Eldar vehicles cutting the mustard in competetive play these days. Cheers