Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Heres an interesting one. How would Pavane interact with an swooping FMC?

"The firer can immediatly move the target d6 inches. This movement follows the same rules as a normal move......."

1. Can you change flight modes as its "normal movement" and make it go from swooping to gliding.

2. Can you as part of its normal movement make it change directions up to 90deg. and then move it d6".

Well, you'll need a 6 to hit.

Yeah, I think you've got it, though. The FMC rules state that you have to choose a flight mode "at the start of its move". It's not keyed to the owner's movement phase or anything like that.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, you'll need a 6 to hit.

Yeah, I think you've got it, though. The FMC rules state that you have to choose a flight mode "at the start of its move". It's not keyed to the owner's movement phase or anything like that.

Yes , I understand that.. However i run 2 FMC daemons of slaanesh with pavane so ill only need 2's (if im swooping to).. It had just got me wondering if I run up against other FMC what I can do against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If do choose to make them gliding I could choose them to turn them a full 180 deg.? Correct?

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, you'll need a 6 to hit.

Yeah, I think you've got it, though. The FMC rules state that you have to choose a flight mode "at the start of its move". It's not keyed to the owner's movement phase or anything like that.

Well, it depends on how you define normal. Also it is not starting "its" move. It is being moved out of turn by an effect. In this case I think #2 would be the most likely.

Fragile wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yeah, I think you've got it, though. The FMC rules state that you have to choose a flight mode "at the start of its move". It's not keyed to the owner's movement phase or anything like that.

Well, it depends on how you define normal. Also it is not starting "its" move. It is being moved out of turn by an effect. In this case I think #2 would be the most likely.

It is starting its move. It's just like Lash, really. Treat it like it's your own model and follow the normal movement rules, except it's limited to only moving 1d6" and ignores difficult.

Actually, bearing that in mind, Pavane looks like it will automatically make it Glide, because it has to move at least 12" if it's Swooping, which is not an option.

Camarodragon wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Well, you'll need a 6 to hit.

Yeah, I think you've got it, though. The FMC rules state that you have to choose a flight mode "at the start of its move". It's not keyed to the owner's movement phase or anything like that.

Yes , I understand that.. However i run 2 FMC daemons of slaanesh with pavane so ill only need 2's (if im swooping to).. It had just got me wondering if I run up against other FMC what I can do against them.

Looks legit to me. Those flying Slaaneshi princes with Pavane are a LOT of points, but this seems like a prettty awesome (albeit limited) and unique piece of utility.

Camarodragon wrote:
[If do choose to make them gliding I could choose them to turn them a full 180 deg.? Correct?

Yep, if they're Gliding they can move wherever and face whichever way, which will then limit his options if he wants to Swoop again next turn. Nice one.

Yes they are a lot of points. Its main purpose is to bunch up groups of infantry for all my flamers and others that carry breath of chaos in the army.

This little tidbit with the Pavaning FMC is just a secondary consideration that came to mind.

Not being familiar with the daemon codex, can you pavane a vehicle?

SNIP!


edit: I read the rule.... but didn't make it to the last line, which says no (non walker) vehicles.....

Nevermind

a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18. If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.

That rule would not apply as the power? is not voluntary and not in its own movement phase.

You can pavane walkers but not other types of vehicles. Because you can make a walkers dance, but not a landraider.

Anyone have an actual quote to the Pavane rule?

"The Pavane of Slaanesh is a ranged weapon with a range of 18". Roll to hit as normal. If the target unit is hit, it will immediately begin to dance to the tune of the Lord of Excess - the firer can immediately move the target unit up to D6". This movement follows the same rules as a normal move, except it is not slowed by difficult terrain. So, for example, Dangerous Terrain tests are taken as normal, victims may not be moved off the table, out of combat, into impassable terrain or to within 1" of enemy models, and so on. An enemy unit may only be moved by this Gift once per turn, successive hits have no effect. The Pavane has no effect on vehicles other than Walkers, which are effected as normal (as they can dance!)."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Due to the wording, I do believe that it could be used on a FMC, and it would force said FMC into glide, as it would be a move under 12".

Wow, this would be a great counter to FMC spam.

I'm not sure you can pick a flight mode for the target.
The firer can move the target, but the target is not making a move itself. "At the start of its move" is when a FMC changes modes. Being Pavaned is not the start of its move.

So this is where vector dancer comes in to play!

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not sure you can pick a flight mode for the target.
The firer can move the target, but the target is not making a move itself. "At the start of its move" is when a FMC changes modes. Being Pavaned is not the start of its move.

However,

"This movement follows the same rules as a normal move......." in which case you could argue that choosing a movement type is necessary and not even optional.

Camarodragon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm not sure you can pick a flight mode for the target.
The firer can move the target, but the target is not making a move itself. "At the start of its move" is when a FMC changes modes. Being Pavaned is not the start of its move.

However,

"This movement follows the same rules as a normal move......." in which case you could argue that choosing a movement type is necessary and not even optional.

As a normal move - correct. Not the units normal move. It doesn't allow me to pick the model up and move it across the board, for example, or measure from the back of the base to the front of the base.

But it is absolutely not the FMC's move that is happening.

So what happens when a SWOOPING FMC cannot move more than 12"? Does it crash like a plane?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what happens when a SWOOPING FMC cannot move more than 12"? Does it crash like a plane?

During its move, yes.
If someone else is moving it, no.

If the model is forcibly moved due to, say, a tank shock or Mawloc (not that either can hit fliers, but for example) the model is moved following normal movement rules. Would you argue that a flier is automatically destroyed at that point as well?

"At the start of its move" Can be read two ways..


"At the start of its move" ( in its movement phase)
"At the start of its move" (when the model moves)

Yes it is contentious, Depending on what side of the fence your on and its not clearly laid out. Im sure GW didnt think about this one. I don't really know whats intended.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what happens when a SWOOPING FMC cannot move more than 12"? Does it crash like a plane?

During its move, yes.

I would argue that point as there is no support in the rules for crashing a FMC (upon a nonlegal move). If it can't move its swoop move it MUST move its glide move.

Camarodragon wrote:
"At the start of its move" Can be read two ways..


"At the start of its move" ( in its movement phase)
"At the start of its move" (when the model moves)

Yes it is contentious, Depending on what side of the fence your on and its not clearly laid out. Im sure GW didnt think about this one. I don't really know whats intended.

Not really. "its" is possessive - meaning the move that it owns. It doesn't own the move forced on it by Pavane, a tank shock, a mawloc attack, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Camarodragon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what happens when a SWOOPING FMC cannot move more than 12"? Does it crash like a plane?

During its move, yes.

I would argue that point as there is no support in the rules for crashing a FMC (upon a nonlegal move). If it can't move its swoop move it MUST move its glide move.

That's not what the rules say at all. There are actually no rules covering what happens if a SFMC cannot move 12" (at least not on the FMC page - I might just not be looking in the right place).

rigeld2 wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:
"At the start of its move" Can be read two ways..


"At the start of its move" ( in its movement phase)
"At the start of its move" (when the model moves)

Yes it is contentious, Depending on what side of the fence your on and its not clearly laid out. Im sure GW didnt think about this one. I don't really know whats intended.

Not really. "its" is possessive - meaning the move that it owns. It doesn't own the move forced on it by Pavane, a tank shock, a mawloc attack, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Camarodragon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So what happens when a SWOOPING FMC cannot move more than 12"? Does it crash like a plane?

During its move, yes.

I would argue that point as there is no support in the rules for crashing a FMC (upon a nonlegal move). If it can't move its swoop move it MUST move its glide move.

That's not what the rules say at all. There are actually no rules covering what happens if a SFMC cannot move 12" (at least not on the FMC page - I might just not be looking in the right place).

Thats true a player could choose Swooping even if he had ABOLUTLY no way of doing a legal move. The Game breaks and we pack up our models and go home.. The other less broken and actully legal move would be for him to make a glide move and move on.

Camarodragon wrote:
Thats true a player could choose Swooping even if he had ABOLUTLY no way of doing a legal move. The Game breaks and we pack up our models and go home.. The other less broken and actully legal move would be for him to make a glide move and move on.

Or, you treat it like a flying vehicle that crashes if it can't makes its zooming move.
It's a whole in the rules that needs to be FAQed/agreed on - and one that's irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't think it's that complicated. People tried to overcomplicate Lash and GW came out and said very clearly and simply, that you just follow the normal movement rules, except for where explicitly specified otherwise- so you've got a speed restriction, and the fact that it ignores difficult, and other than that it's EXACTLY like a "normal" move, like the owning player would normally make in their own phase.

Occam's Razor says it's a bad idea to read into it more than that. Simply interpret it the the simplest possible way that's as compatible as possible with the normal mechanics of the game.

There's no reason to confuse "start of move" with "start of movement phase". 40k has actions or decisions which happen at the start of a unit's move and ones which happen at the start of a movement phase. Blessings and Maledictions, for example, have to be cast at the start of the movement phase. Taking a rally test, OTOH, is done at the start of a unit's move (though it used to be at the start of the movement phase, in 3rd and 4th editions). Changing flight modes, similar to Rallying, is done "at the start of its (the FMC's) move". Things which are done at the start of the phase vs. the start of the unit's movement are two clearly different things, and I don't see any reason to conflate them. That's just creating confusion where none needs to be.

So, if I were moving my own FMC, in my own phase, what are the rules? He has to Swoop, or Glide. I MUST declare one of those modes at the beginning of the move. So the Pavaning player also must declare one of those modes. Now, do the FMC or the Pavane rules say anything about crashing if you can't move far enough? They do not. They just say that if you're Swooping, you must move between 12" and 24". Since that's clearly not an option, then Gliding is, by process of elimination, the only movement mode available in this situation.

So it forces it into glide mode (i.e. on the ground as jump infantry effectively) and then has to test if it crashes into the ground because it was hit with a shooting attack?
Awesome.

EDIT: Typo

I wouldn't think his flight mode is affected at all. You are magically repositioning the model out of the normal turn sequence. The "normal" move just tells you to follow the restrictions on where you can place the model. Without any rule specifying that this also changes his flight mode I wouldn't. Just keep it simple. Move the model and move on with the game.

psyklone wrote:
So it forces it into glide mode (i.e. on the ground as jump infantry effectively) and then has to test if it crashes into the ground because it was hit with a shooting attack?
Awesome.

EDIT: Typo

Well, no. If its gliding its not swooping anymore, so can't be forced to make grounding tests.

The only thing here that causes a conflict for me in regards to swooping/gliding, is that the Lash lets you choose how to use Jump Infantry packs, so I can see GW letting you choose swoop/glide here.

Lash is gone though. Pavane is the power in question

Thats really moot. The lash allowed you to move a target 2d6.

Q. Can you use Lash of Submission to move models around within a unit and re-arrange them? Can models be moved out of unit coherency? Can a unit be moved out of combat? If a unit is moved into dangerous terrain, do they have to test? If jump infantry are moved, are they assumed to be using their packs or walking? Can a unit be shoved right off the table, or into impassable terrain? (p88) A. The move created by this power is executed exactly like a normal move, except that it’s not slowed by difficult terrain. It follows that, for example:

• the 2D6" distance rolled is the unit’s maximum move, as normal, and models in the unit can move up to that distance or less.
• models cannot be moved out of coherency.
• units cannot be moved out of combat.
• dangerous terrain tests must be taken as normal.
• jump infantry may choose to move either with their packs or on foot (moving player’s choice).
• units cannot enter impassable terrain, leave the table or be moved closer than 1" to enemy models.


Given that Lash followed those rules for "moving" a target, I would assume that the same rules would apply to Pavane.

Fragile wrote:

Given that Lash followed those rules for "moving" a target, I would assume that the same rules would apply to Pavane.

And that is where you assume incorrectly.