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Hi all,

I apologize in advance is this post is misplaced. I've been into Warhammer lore for several years now, and recently got into the 40k tabletop game. I'm quite thoroughly enjoying it, however I have some questions that I was hoping you folks could help me with.

I've been playing with the Chaos army that comes in the Dark Vengeance set, and my roommate has been playing the Dark Angels. We've played a handful of games now, and every time a game is over, I have this awful taste in my mouth regarding the chaos cultist squads. They almost always get obliterated within the first two turns.

I was wonder, how do you play them, and are they just innately ineffective, or am I just doing something wrong?

For the record, I've tried both running them up to engage in melee, and attempted to use them at range. Both of these result in the same fashion: the Dark Angels tear through them.

Thanks

Reignir wrote:
Hi all,

I apologize in advance is this post is misplaced. I've been into Warhammer lore for several years now, and recently got into the 40k tabletop game. I'm quite thoroughly enjoying it, however I have some questions that I was hoping you folks could help me with.

I've been playing with the Chaos army that comes in the Dark Vengeance set, and my roommate has been playing the Dark Angels. We've played a handful of games now, and every time a game is over, I have this awful taste in my mouth regarding the chaos cultist squads. They almost always get obliterated within the first two turns.

I was wonder, how do you play them, and are they just innately ineffective, or am I just doing something wrong?

For the record, I've tried both running them up to engage in melee, and attempted to use them at range. Both of these result in the same fashion: the Dark Angels tear through them.

Thanks

First off, welcome to dakka!

Second, no one can play cultists outside of Dark Vengence, as they have no rules yet. But seeing as they have guardsmen stats with 6+ saves, they are meant to be a speedbump. Anything they do after that is a bonus.

Thanks!

Yes, I had figured since the new Codex isn't out that the Cultists were restricted to the Dark Vengeance set.

I was more or less curious is they were meant to be used as fodder for my Helbrute and Chosen, or if they are useful, and it's just a user error

They really are a fodder unit.

In the scope of a larger army, they will be useful as speed bumps but they can also accomplish something in large numbers.


With Autoguns and BS3 here are some stats on how many shots it takes to kill Space Marines.

To kill one Marine it takes an average of 18 shots with Autoguns. So thats 9 Cultists in half range, or 18 at long range. The actual math is 18(.5)(1/3)(1/3)=1 failed armor save.

Just use the Cultists as a speed-bump unit to tie up the DA. Even the Terminators will have problems wading through the 20-strong mob, keep them tied up until your Chosen or Hellbrute can get into the mob.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Just use the Cultists as a speed-bump unit to tie up the DA. Even the Terminators will have problems wading through the 20-strong mob, keep them tied up until your Chosen or Hellbrute can get into the mob.

It is two 10 man blobs.

The other problem you have is that the Dark angels have a lot more points worth of units on the field if I remember correctly. Somebody did the math once and the Dark angels had a good 100+pts on the chaos force, which is a big deal.

That might be why you're having trouble more than anything.

Other than that, cultists are what IG players lovingly refer to as "meatshields"

They stand in front of something important, give it a cover save, and eat bullets that would normally go toward units you actually care about. The fact that they can score is a bonus. They also tend to make excellent tarpit units if you have a way to keep them from running.

In the missions it is all about the number of hits they can make on the DA.
So take the mission where you need get the three bikers across 3 tables.

Now all your attacks are st3, to wound t5, yes, that is a 6 that is needed. To hit in cc or shooting needs 4+ roll. 3+ armour.

So (1/6)(1/2)(1/3)= 1/36 that any attack actually takes a wound.
On average on the course of three tables if you can do 3 lots of that 36, 108 then you will expect the three models to die.
This ignores them running away. You dying or running away doesn't matter as long as you reach that magic 108.

The question comes would you get more attacks by assaulting or rapid firing. Assaulting means losing a few before your models attack but then your models get 2 cc attacks plus any pistol shots and then the cc continues into the next turn. Also if you assault you will lose less models and so attacks than when the ravenwing assault.

Now the issue here is the size of 108. Compared to the size of 108, 2 is close to the number 3. That is even if you do 108 attacks it reasonably likely that this will still not be enough.
I think 108 is doable in the scenerio.

In fact even if you can manage 160 attacks towards the bikers you still have 1/6 chance of not causing three unsaved wounds.

For mathematics out there type the following into google:
(35/36)^160+(1/35)*(160 choose 1)*(35/36)^160+(1/35)^2*(160 choose 2)*(35/36)^160

In all other missions they should act as cover or a distraction mostly.

The whole Dark Vengance is really unbalanced.

I would recomend that you play a game, then swap forces and play the same mission again and compare who did the best resault.

The forces are really in DA:s favour.

HQ: one Chaos Lord (120p) vs one Chaplain, Librarian and Captain (340p?)
Troops: 20 cultists (around 100p) vs one tactical kitted with plasma (200p)
Elite: 6 chosen (180p) vs 5 terminators (235p)
Elite / Fast: Dread (105p) vs Bikes (105p)

These points are from the SM codex and not the DA codex. If you use DA codex the difference become even bigger.
Its just round numbers but gives us a picture of the unbalance. 505p vs 880p.
Also, remember that the chaos army is really bad kitted for facing the DA force.
Multimelta on the dread while the DA have no tanks. Only one weapon with AP 2 against 5 Terminators.

Just see it as an introduction to the game and a nice starting force to collect your new army around. The minis are really sweet!

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Just use the Cultists as a speed-bump unit to tie up the DA. Even the Terminators will have problems wading through the 20-strong mob, keep them tied up until your Chosen or Hellbrute can get into the mob.

It is two 10 man blobs.

10 men ain't no blob


If you want to make it more interesting, OP, ask your friend if you can field them as a blob.
What I mean is this- The DV set is horribly unbalanced. To be honest, most starter sets are unbalanced because SM posterboys of gamesworkshop etc etc. gotta make 'em look good so they sell. So- pretend you have taken an imperial guard allies force, in the form of a 20 man blob
Same same, except as one squad you 1) take less leadership tests and 2) can do more things, cover more ground, shenanigans shenanigans... Also Vombat's idea of swapping sides and seeing who does better is a really good idea, and playing in the opponents shoes will help you learn alot about the game.

As bad as the DV cultists are, at 5ppm guardsmen are great allies. Big blobs of them as meat into the grinder- fluffy and effective (until i get my new codex with cultists in them xD)

Back to the original post.

Make sure there is lots of area terrain with cover to get a cover save and slow down any charge or give you change to withdraw (can you still run away from a charge in the 6th - do that if you can) and counter charge with the lord and dreadnought - challenge with the lord. Don't be afraid to go to ground to get the better save. Keep everything firing at your cultists!

Possibly "mingle" the two units so that if they do get the charge on you they don't get the extra attack - poss put a lord in with the cultists.

Can you infiltrate your chosen to get you hands on their tactial squad or bikes early on (not sure what the chosens kit out is like if there is no plasma/power weap don't go for the bikes)?

If the terminators are deep striking sit tight and shoot when they arrive, in the meantime shoot the bikes with the dread.

If the termies start on the board I don't think you have less of a chance - if they are delayed until the third turn and you can keep the cultists in cover I think you are going to be okay.

You just need to make the force work better together and try to put a spanner in the DA works.

The starter set is heavily biased towards Dark Angels. Chaos hardly stands a chance vs. their units thus it's an uphill fight anyway

Yep I agree with you.

In my youth I spent most of my time fighting battles against opponents with points advantages - the main opponent was a cheaky so and so who one day fielded a WFB undead army, with a 10pt cost for the basic troops it was easy to tally up his force; the basic troops came to "agreed" points cost prior to all is characters and cavelry.

I lost that one. But he also left all his army sheets after each battle we had so I went back and costed each one and found even though I was usually at least 20% less on points I was still winning or drawing 50% of the time.

My point is even though the CSM are less on points since the DA is a relatively balanced army they'll be sneaky ways to get the drop on them. Obviously you do need the better player using the CSM or turning it around the CSM player will soon become the better player.

The original poster should use the chance to keep trying new things as the DA player will probably carry on with one or two standard "these work" approaches and won't really appreciate that apart from enjoying the game they are not really developing as a player as fast as the CSM player.

Thanks for all the input, guys!

There are definitely some new things I will have to try with my squad.

It's good to know I don't have as many points as the DA. That means I have some growing room and can add a little more customization to my army. Personally, I was debating on whether or not I should pick up some CSM Bikers or Chaos Terminators, just because the DA's Terminators kick a serious amount of ass.

I was also eyeballing Typhus II, since I'm painting my army up with Nurgle colors. I'm still very much a noob so if this all sounds completely asinine, I apologize. I'm a big collectible game player (I've got hundreds of Star Wars Miniatures, D&D miniatures, and Axis & Allies Miniatures), so I do have some veterency in the wargaming field, but 40K definitely has a much steeper learning curve than what I'm used to.

Don't let the mathhammering scare you away. It's a tool of neckbeardy trolls! lol Welcome to a rich and rewarding hobby where grown folk push plastic folk around on tables and cry over dice rolls. Are you having fun? Then you are doing "it" right, whatever "it "maybe.

Well, math hammer isn't meant to be beardy, it's just a trick to figure out what to expect from your men. Once you learn stats fairly well, it's usually easy to get a rough idea of what your guys will accomplish with certain moves. It'd be no different than a real life commander knowing that his tank's main cannon can only penetrate the armor on an enemy tank from a certain range.

For example, I've memorized that everytime I shoot a lasgun (same weapon as your autogun's in everything but name) I have a 1/18 chance of killing a space marine. So, I plan accordingly, and make sure that I either have enough shots to ensure the kill, or accept that I'm just shooting lasguns hoping for a random roll.

Although I will admit, there are times when people are arguing over how one unit is .01% better than the other where it gets a bit silly.