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In the Army Book for Daemons of Chaos the entry for Flames of Tzeetch it states that they do not suffer the -1 for multiple shots. In the White Dwarf Daemon update however this isn’t listed in the weapon profile for Flames of Tzeetch.

Do Flamers of Tzeetch still ignore the -1 penalty?

Do other units that have the option of taking Flames of Tzeetch suffer the -1 penalty? (Lord of Change and Herald of Tzeetch)

While not related to Flames of Tzeetch this came up in a conversation I had yesterday while debating if I wanted to put my Tzeetch Herald on a disc or chariot; if a Herald of Tzeetch is on a Disc or Chariot do the Screamers have the Slash attacks?

Now they do suffer the -1. The WD update over writes the entry in the army book, which sucks out loud, enjoy your POS flamers, thanks GW!

Bah, that's what I thought, was confused because AB still lists it as ignoring the penalty while the flamers have the cost and stats of the WD. So does the WD update overwrite it for the Herald and Lord also? Or are theirs 'different' now?

The WD update only addressed flamers, screamers and added the new slaanesh chariots, and soulgrinder, therefore only they were affected. I really don't get why they did that, I mean yeah flamers was really good but so are leadbelchers.

I do not think Flamers are suffering that much. Losing 16% accuracy means that maybe, just maybe, I'll face one or two lists without two maxed-out units of those stupid flaming windsocks.
Are they worse now? Yes. Were they too good before? Yes.

Leadbelchers are good too, but that doesn't mean either of them are reasonable.

Flamers also got more expensive, lost a strength in hand to hand and can boost your opponent's units.

I agree they were too powerful before - but they are unplayable now.

Yah, they aren't so hot. They were almost exactly identical to leadbelchers. +Str, -WS, +I, -W, +BS, -Range, etc. Special with no limit, Rare with a max of 6. As for facing maxed Flamers, they are the ONLY ranged unit in all of DoC. People meh leadbelchers because they just get 2 ironblasters which can do it all way better. DoC doesn't have anything like that.

If Flamers were really that unbelievable, leadbelchers would be in every army. The reason you saw mass Flamers is because they filled a need that Doc has no access to outside of that unit. The reason you won't see nearly as many now is because they suck. They are now worse than leadbelchers in every way. The trade-off of potentially doing D3 wounds is soooo much worse than potentially giving something regen forever. It means you can't ever shoot at a large block for fear of buffing them. Imagine giving some skaven slaves regen. Oh, and you can even make it better on subsequent hits.

The addition of Soulgrinders means you should never see flamers. They can grapeshot if nothing else. About 6 Flamers cost as much as a Soulgrinder, who can do a lot more.

I think Flamers saw play more because they could pump out more kills/pt than other units than because they did so at a range.

As for all these changes: I haven't seen the update yet. One or two downsides to Flamers would have been reasonable, but all that stuff is indeed overboard, to put it mildly.

Flamers were already on the bubble with me prior to the nerf. I was using them mostly to clear chaffe and give me a late game flank support unit in close combat. Now they are a 240 point unit that can't even force a panic test on a fast cav unit in most normal play circumstances. For a few points more, I can have a Soulgrinder with the far superior flame cannon and it doubles as a bullet sponge for my GD. It made my decision easy and I had not run double flamers in almost two years, as it was.

 Phazael wrote:
Flamers were already on the bubble with me prior to the nerf. I was using them mostly to clear chaffe and give me a late game flank support unit in close combat. Now they are a 240 point unit that can't even force a panic test on a fast cav unit in most normal play circumstances. For a few points more, I can have a Soulgrinder with the far superior flame cannon and it doubles as a bullet sponge for my GD. It made my decision easy and I had not run double flamers in almost two years, as it was.

I absolutely agree with this interpretation. Flamers, for me, have been a complete waste of points since the adjustment. None of the local Daemon players are using Flamers anymore for the same reason, whereas previously, they all had at least one unit.

I've actually been running two flame cannon 'Grinders in 2500 points, and they've only underperformed against Ogres. Against any other non-monstrous infantry armies, the flame cannon shot has been excellent, even if I only get off one shot for each 'Grinder.

I don't see how the Grinder weapons are worth it except for Daemonbone claw, which is scary as hell to any hero. You can only move and use 1 weapon and you already got a grapeshot cannon. Unless you're shooting at some horde deep unit, or clip multi-units, the grapeshot is likely to hit as much or more as the warpfire, except the cannon is free.

 Phazael wrote:
Flamers were already on the bubble with me prior to the nerf. I was using them mostly to clear chaffe and give me a late game flank support unit in close combat. Now they are a 240 point unit that can't even force a panic test on a fast cav unit in most normal play circumstances. For a few points more, I can have a Soulgrinder with the far superior flame cannon and it doubles as a bullet sponge for my GD. It made my decision easy and I had not run double flamers in almost two years, as it was.

Hmm, that seems not true at all. 6 models with D6 shots, averages 21 shots. With movement, long range, and multi-shot, you're still hitting on 6's (worst case), and wounding fast cav on 3+, with the fast cav saving on a 6+ at best. That's 2 wounds on fast cav with worst cast shooting, 4 wounds if you start within 18" or can march within 9" (21" threat range).
Unless you typically see units of 9+ fast cav, 2 wounds forces a panic test. You'll average another 2 wounds on a stand and shoot (long range, stand and shoot, and multi-shot).

The good use I've seen of flamers is slipping behind enemy lines and then peppering them with 20+ shots a turn (per unit) for the rest of the game. With the small unit foot print, and skirmish, I've seen them be able to stay within short range and out of line of sight for quite awhile. That's a lot of good strength shots hitting on 5+, sometimes even 4+.
It's not a lot of kills, but it does add up. Giving a unit regeneration isn't a big deal when a good chunk of your army can show up with flaming attacks.


Comparing them to grape shot is laughable. They have a 30" threat range (18" for grape shot). Grape shot also suffers for range and movement, and starts with BS3 instead of 4.
So instead of 6D6 shots, you're getting ~4-6 (on average).

-Matt

Um, grapeshot is free. To stop it, you engage the unit in close combat, where it is vastly more powerful and will rip you apart--like the old flamers used to do but worse. To stop the flamers, you engage them in close combat and rip them apart. I.e., grapeshot is something you do on your way to tearing the faces off stuff. 250pts for a grapeshot cannon is horribly overpriced if that's all you use it for. And 300 for a warpfire thrower or stone thrower is likewise terrible.

But it's an 8 movement, 7T, 6W thunderstomping terror monster with chaos armor and a ward save that can auto hit stuff and inflict 10S D6W. So it can fight monsters, heroes, fodder. It just also happens to have a grapeshot cannon.

The vast majority of vanilla units of any point value don't want to go up against a clawed soulgrinder. You can devise some heroes who could probably fake it out, but it's actually a really good unit. As bad as their DP is, the soulgrinder is good.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Um, grapeshot is free. To stop it, you engage the unit in close combat, where it is vastly more powerful and will rip you apart--like the old flamers used to do but worse. To stop the flamers, you engage them in close combat and rip them apart. I.e., grapeshot is something you do on your way to tearing the faces off stuff. 250pts for a grapeshot cannon is horribly overpriced if that's all you use it for. And 300 for a warpfire thrower or stone thrower is likewise terrible.

But it's an 8 movement, 7T, 6W thunderstomping terror monster with chaos armor and a ward save that can auto hit stuff and inflict 10S D6W. So it can fight monsters, heroes, fodder. It just also happens to have a grapeshot cannon.

The vast majority of vanilla units of any point value don't want to go up against a clawed soulgrinder. You can devise some heroes who could probably fake it out, but it's actually a really good unit. As bad as their DP is, the soulgrinder is good.

If the soul grinder could march and fire, I'd agree.
But it can't. You have to choose to give up half your movement to take those horrible shots. It's a beat stick, that has a free bad option. Close in on the enemy slower to take a handful of crappy shots.
Art die of shots, -1 for movement, -1 for range, is hitting on 6's, wounding fast cav on 2's. The artillery die averages 5 shots, meaning that it averages .12 wounding hits. You've got a 1:6 chance of rolling a misfire and taking a wound yourself (17%). You're actually more likely to wound yourself rather than the enemy.
Flamers doing ~4 wounds at fast cav unit and soul grinder doing ~0.12 (if the enemy started at the same distances from both), means that flamers are 33 times better at shooting than Soul Grinder.

Looking at flamers and soulgrinders and talking about shooting is comparing apples to oranges.
The soul grinder should pretty much never shoot. On average you take more damage than your target. It shouldn't be walking, it should march to close range and go into combat.
Flamers should use their speed (12" march) to avoid combat, and slip behind enemy lines ASAP. Once out of charge arc, they should park and shoot, peppering the enemy with significant fire for the rest of the game.

Shooting with a soul grinder is a poor use of the unit.
Charging into combat with flamers is a poor use of the unit.

Thinking that either can fill the others role is foolish.

-Matt

It depends on what you're shooting at as to whether it's worth it to use the cannon. Soulgrinder is one of the most defensive monsters in the game, 4+ armor, 5+ ward, 7T(!) and it's even fast. So taking a wound without saves is really horrible for it because it normally takes a whole lot to get a wound on it. But grapeshot is also Str 5 AP and will average 6 shots.

But Flamers are still going to give Regen. And while it's conceivable you're going to have other flaming attackers, it's not very likely, let's be honest. So then the Flamers are forced to keep attacking the same guys they buffed to knock off that regeneration, which can then even buff the regen more.

The min size/cost of Flamers is 120 pts. It's not super cheap. That's half a soulgrinder or 10 Core troops (or Furies which can fly and hit deep targets).

I think they were overnerfed is all.

I'm interested to see if a new codex keeps their stats and abilities "as is" or if it effectively treats the white dwarf update as a beta test.

DukeRustfield wrote:
It depends on what you're shooting at as to whether it's worth it to use the cannon. Soulgrinder is one of the most defensive monsters in the game, 4+ armor, 5+ ward, 7T(!) and it's even fast. So taking a wound without saves is really horrible for it because it normally takes a whole lot to get a wound on it. But grapeshot is also Str 5 AP and will average 6 shots.

But Flamers are still going to give Regen. And while it's conceivable you're going to have other flaming attackers, it's not very likely, let's be honest. So then the Flamers are forced to keep attacking the same guys they buffed to knock off that regeneration, which can then even buff the regen more.

The min size/cost of Flamers is 120 pts. It's not super cheap. That's half a soulgrinder or 10 Core troops (or Furies which can fly and hit deep targets).

I think they were overnerfed is all.

T4 skirmishers that shoot like DE fast cav and have a 5+ ward. Really terrible. Awful in fact.
Seriously though the only problem with the new flamers is that they aren't head and shoulders better than the rest of the army any more; like the rest of the book they are now merely "good."
Also, your building your own army list so you'll already know if accidentally giving the enemy regen is going to be a problem. It shouldn't be, everything tzeench is flaming and even khorne characters have the option for flaming attacks.
Flamers just ain't as good as they used to be, which frankly is a relief cause they were a pain in the butt.

DukeRustfield wrote:
It depends on what you're shooting at as to whether it's worth it to use the cannon. Soulgrinder is one of the most defensive monsters in the game, 4+ armor, 5+ ward, 7T(!) and it's even fast. So taking a wound without saves is really horrible for it because it normally takes a whole lot to get a wound on it. But grapeshot is also Str 5 AP and will average 6 shots.

But Flamers are still going to give Regen. And while it's conceivable you're going to have other flaming attackers, it's not very likely, let's be honest. So then the Flamers are forced to keep attacking the same guys they buffed to knock off that regeneration, which can then even buff the regen more.

The min size/cost of Flamers is 120 pts. It's not super cheap. That's half a soulgrinder or 10 Core troops (or Furies which can fly and hit deep targets).

I think they were overnerfed is all.

Average of grape shot is 5.
2+4+6+8+10+zero for misfire. That's 30 shots out of 6 possible outcomes. 5 shot average.
Does grapeshot say it ignores the multiple shot rule? Don't have my rule book handy.
Does the flamer shooting say it gets a D6 shots, or multiple shot D6?

We might want to check wording on multiple shots.

-Matt

Just looked into this and noticed two things.

1. Flamers are indeed Multiple Shot D6 and suffer the penalty, while grapeshot is not (so does not suffer the extra -1).

2. Flamers can now choose to shoot one shot if they want to avoid the penalty. Not sure it'll be worth it, but option is there.

As for Leith - they are 40 points each. So yeah, that profile sounds fine until you realize they are WS2, BS3 (essentially), cost more than 2 dark riders and don't move as fast.

I don't know DE fast cav but I'm betting my shoes they don't cost 40pts per unit and give Regeneration to people they shoot.

Avg grapeshot is 6 on a non-misfire. With a 1 in 6 of a misfire. I feel the wound is sufficient it shouldn't be considered a shot. It's the same concept.

Only the multiple shots special rule has a -1 penalty. Grapeshot is artillery dice and its own set of rules.

Heh, I also noticed a typo in the white dwarf. In the front section, Flamers have BS 5 and Pyrocaster has BS 4. In the back, it's reversed. If you wanted to be a jerk, you could say vanilla Flamers are BS 5 and their upgraded champ is even worse. Cuz, you know, that's Chaos :p

Yeah I saw that typo - hilarious. I think that is a pretty clear case though and doubt anyone would you take you seriously. Now if it had been repeated in the back, we'd have a serious problem.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I don't know DE fast cav but I'm betting my shoes they don't cost 40pts per unit and give Regeneration to people they shoot.

Avg grapeshot is 6 on a non-misfire. With a 1 in 6 of a misfire. I feel the wound is sufficient it shouldn't be considered a shot. It's the same concept.

Your disregarding the misfire as a roll, because after you roll it, you take a wound?
Ok, so I'm disregarding 1's 2's and 3's for number of shots on a D6, because those numbers are too low. Now a unit of 6 flamers averages 30 shots!
"average" doesn't work that way.
You have 6 possible out comes, producing between 0 and 10 shots. You can't choose to ignore one because it has an additional effect tied to it.

DE fast cav are 22 points for 2 S3 shots (same BS, same multiple shot -1 to hit).
A unit of 6 flamers shoots better than an equal point value of dark riders, has more wounds, a higher toughness, and it's save is a ward save instead of armor.
Dark riders are faster, but have a larger foot print, making it harder to get everyone in short range and out of line of sight.

Shades out shoot flamers, but have a much larger footprint for the firepower.
7 shades + rending star assassin is roughly the same as 6 flamers. Both are really good units if you can get out of arc and in short range.

Flamers giving regen is largely moot. Since they have flaming attacks, you'll never get the regen against their hits, and if you're running flamers, odds are good you'll bring a khorne herald with the flaming attacks.


-Matt

I gave the avg number of shots of non-misfire. That is a completely valid situation and sentence. You'll encounter its like quite often in life.

People often say how much money they make an hour. But that doesn't include when they sleep. Or when they are off work. Or driving to work. Or on the weekend. Or even on lunch in between working. So their hourly rate is really vastly less and they have merely included their times of actual working.

The avg number of shots given every situation that it can ever be in is probably close to 0. Because a vast majority of the time it will not be in range. Or it may not be able to see the target. Or it might have marched and be unable to shoot. Those are 0 shots possible and would bring down any avg.


I don't see how they can have more wounds unless the DE are a half wound each. Flamers have 2 W. Maybe they have 1 or 2 wounds on a max unit, but no one cares. They have the same BS according to the back of the BRB. And you don't get where regen happens. It happens in the shooting phase, so during CC, that unit has regen regardless of what Flamers do (unless a different Flamer unit hits them after). If they give it regen they have to keep attacking it if they want to take off regen.

The idea of using a dedicated Herald of Khorne, who doesn't have flaming unless you buy it, and he's got better options, i.e., a 125-150pt hero to counteract the BUFF your own, fast-moving, rear-attacking troops gave to a unit, is as ridiculous as it sounds.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I gave the avg number of shots of non-misfire. That is a completely valid situation and sentence. You'll encounter its like quite often in life.

People often say how much money they make an hour. But that doesn't include when they sleep. Or when they are off work. Or driving to work. Or on the weekend. Or even on lunch in between working. So their hourly rate is really vastly less and they have merely included their times of actual working.

The avg number of shots given every situation that it can ever be in is probably close to 0. Because a vast majority of the time it will not be in range. Or it may not be able to see the target. Or it might have marched and be unable to shoot. Those are 0 shots possible and would bring down any avg.


I don't see how they can have more wounds unless the DE are a half wound each. Flamers have 2 W. Maybe they have 1 or 2 wounds on a max unit, but no one cares. They have the same BS according to the back of the BRB. And you don't get where regen happens. It happens in the shooting phase, so during CC, that unit has regen regardless of what Flamers do (unless a different Flamer unit hits them after). If they give it regen they have to keep attacking it if they want to take off regen.

The idea of using a dedicated Herald of Khorne, who doesn't have flaming unless you buy it, and he's got better options, i.e., a 125-150pt hero to counteract the BUFF your own, fast-moving, rear-attacking troops gave to a unit, is as ridiculous as it sounds.

But the misfire producing zero shots is part of the process to determine how many shots they produce. It's not the same as when you're not working.
A statement of what's the average number of shots, implies When you shoot. So I didn't march, and I have line of sight, I'm going to attempt to shoot. What do I do? I pick up an artillery die and roll it. What's the average number of shots I get?Hint: 0 is an option when attempting to shoot.
Attaching outlandish qualifiers and pretending it's normal for trying to prove a point of view is a weak stance.

DE have 1 wound each. 10 darkriders would have 10, 6 flamers would have 12. 12 > 10.
My comment on Ballistic Skill was in reference to somebody saying that flamers are effectively BS3. The same could be said for Dark Elf shooting.
Regen isn't a big deal. 1:6 chance you give 6+ regen, while every time you shoot you strip regen and provide magical hits.
I find it odd that people are so paranoid about a 1 in 6 chance of 6+ regen, but will totally gloss over the 1:6 chance of D3 wounds with no save.

I'd gladly give every shooting unit in my army magical flaming attacks with warpflame (D3 wounds on a 6/regen 6+ on a 1).
It helps out quite a bit against hydras, abombs, ogres, trolls, ethereals, and anything with life magic.

-Matt

A) 6 flamers are 20 points more than 10 dark riders.
B) With Dark Riders, you have the option to shoot only once that makes a lot more sense. It will almost never make sense with flamers. And at any rate, the -1 BS was in comparison to old flamers, not necessarily new flamers.

Old flamers were too good... new flamers are too bad.

You don't seem to understand the original sentence: Avg grapeshot is 6 on a non-misfire. Read it a few more times.

Flamers, somewhat ironically, are the only unit in the game capable of 1+ regen. However, they are only capable of bestowing it upon enemy units.

If you hit stuff like an Abomb or Hydra or Troll and DON'T kill them, which is highly likely, they can end up with better regen. You don't want to shoot high wounds stuff with regen. Because you won't kill it and it was scary before you made it regen 3+. And then they will walk over and engage you in CC and you will lose easily and then you're really screwed. It's more likely now that you have other flaming units because Screamers are less sucky, but then you have to beeline for those units as nothing else can effectively fight them.

Screamers arent flaming.

Jeez, is that a typo? They took away flaming from Screamers? They would be the only TZ unit without it.

DukeRustfield wrote:
You don't seem to understand the original sentence: Avg grapeshot is 6 on a non-misfire. Read it a few more times.

Flamers, somewhat ironically, are the only unit in the game capable of 1+ regen. However, they are only capable of bestowing it upon enemy units.

If you hit stuff like an Abomb or Hydra or Troll and DON'T kill them, which is highly likely, they can end up with better regen. You don't want to shoot high wounds stuff with regen. Because you won't kill it and it was scary before you made it regen 3+. And then they will walk over and engage you in CC and you will lose easily and then you're really screwed. It's more likely now that you have other flaming units because Screamers are less sucky, but then you have to beeline for those units as nothing else can effectively fight them.

No, I get it. You're choosing to use flawed logic to compare to units. This isn't a case having no target in range, having marched, or not having line of sight. 1:6 times that you have a target in range and shoot with the grapeshot, you fire ZERO shots.
Take you hourly wage example. If I say you make 10 bucks an hour, working Monday through Friday, and Saturday you're working a full day and not getting paid.
Your working 50 hours and taking home $400. You can call it $10 an hour if you want, but when you start to take about "Average" and compare it to other jobs, it's $8/hour.

If you shoot the Abom, you might give it 3+ regen. You are just as likely to strip a D3 wounds with no save. What you are going to do is make sure that when it does drop, it won't be getting back up.

How many average hits does a fireball spell cause? It's D6 for the base. If you said 3.5 you didn't include miscasts. And you didn't include not reaching casting value. The average hits of fireball has a huge, yet implied, disclaimer of IF YOU ARE SUCCESSFUL. I gave the average hits, if you are successful, of a grapeshot. I even said it in the first sentence. Every war machine has a misfire somewhere. A cannon does not do Str10 D6 multi wounds in your view because it only does that if it hits and doesn't misfire. It's true true statistical average is lower. It's exactly the same. But people are still going to give that value because it is implied you didn't explode. And it's simpler.

What you are going to do is make sure that when it does drop, it won't be getting back up.

Or, you're making sure that if it doesn't drop it never drops. That's not something you want to spend 40pts a model on. And it's every model in a unit. No ARMOR save, you can still get ward saves. So they still have a potential to resist the wounds but regen is guaranteed. And the regen stacks and gets better per application but the +dmg does not. If you did D3 wounds and then 2D3 wounds or something it would be even, but as I said this is the only ability in the game that can give something 1+ regen and you can only do it to enemies.

I mean it's a cop out to say, but I'm not the only person who thinks they really aren't that great now.