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First, is there a difference between "remove from play" and "remove as casualty"?

Second, what happens to the individuals inside of the transports if the transport is removed from play, or removed as a casualty? (JotWW, C'tan Times Arrow, Shokk attack gun,

According to the rulebook, models disembark when the transport is destroyed, but it says nothing about what happens if it's simply removed from play or removed as a casualty. Is this perhaps treated as an emergency disembarkation (although you have no hull to place the model against,) or are the models also gone?

What brought this up is I am making a C'tan with the Times Arrow power, and wondered how that would work against a transport and, specifically the models in a transport. If they get destroyed as well, it's far more worth it just to use times arrow, since no transport I know of has an initiative value it's automatically gone, no rolling necessary.

Been perusing the rulebook and the internet for about an hour on this. I'm sorry if this has been answered before but to be fair I did use the search function first.

Times arrow doesn't work on vehicles...so there's your first answer.

"Page 41 – C’tan Manifestations of Power, Time’s Arrow
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
before blows are struck, nominate one enemy non vehicle
model in base contact with the C’tan Shard (if there are
any)”.

I don't think JotWW works on vehicles either.

Not sure on Shokk Attack Gun.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Times arrow doesn't work on vehicles...so there's your first answer.

"Page 41 – C’tan Manifestations of Power, Time’s Arrow
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
before blows are struck, nominate one enemy non vehicle
model in base contact with the C’tan Shard (if there are
any)”.

I don't think JotWW works on vehicles either.

Not sure on Shokk Attack Gun.

I did miss that one.

There may be instances still where this question still needs to be answered, haven't gone over all the psychic powers yet for example. Thanks for the heads up from the FAQs.

 Spectral Dragon wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Times arrow doesn't work on vehicles...so there's your first answer.

"Page 41 – C’tan Manifestations of Power, Time’s Arrow
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
before blows are struck, nominate one enemy non vehicle
model in base contact with the C’tan Shard (if there are
any)”.

I don't think JotWW works on vehicles either.

Not sure on Shokk Attack Gun.

I did miss that one.

There may be instances still where this question still needs to be answered, haven't gone over all the psychic powers yet for example. Thanks for the heads up from the FAQs.

No worries. Before the FAQ I thought it worked also, but my buddies and I decided not to use it that way because it didn't seem right or fair. Of course, they don't like it when I kirby-lith them either.

Well JotWW has a specific list of unit types it affects, and I'm sure that there aren't any vehicles on that list, so that's out. As far as SAG, I wish I could remember how that's worded, don't have my Ork dex in front of me right now.

 alienvalentine wrote:
Well JotWW has a specific list of unit types it affects, and I'm sure that there aren't any vehicles on that list, so that's out. As far as SAG, I wish I could remember how that's worded, don't have my Ork dex in front of me right now.

This FAQ entry may enlighten about vehicles at least -

Q. Are models that are immune to instant death (such as those with
Eternal Warrior) removed from the table when hit by a shokk attack
gun that rolls a “Raargh” result? (p35)
A. Yes, unless they are gargantuan creatures or super-heavy
vehicles (see the Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse book).

What that means for the passengers, though, I don't know. I would personally say they are placed where the vehicle was as they weren't the target of the attack and can't be affected by it. But...you know....it's GW, so who knows.

A vehicle that is removed from play usually takes it's contents with it as per Lukas the trickster's last laugh.

If a transport is removed from play then so are its passengers.

This is because they can't disembark from a vehicle that no longer exists.

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
What brought this up is I am making a C'tan with the Times Arrow power, and wondered how that would work against a transport and, specifically the models in a transport. If they get destroyed as well, it's far more worth it just to use times arrow, since no transport I know of has an initiative value it's automatically gone, no rolling necessary.

Anytime you run into this situation, its usually an indicator that something isn't being played right.

Fragile wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
What brought this up is I am making a C'tan with the Times Arrow power, and wondered how that would work against a transport and, specifically the models in a transport. If they get destroyed as well, it's far more worth it just to use times arrow, since no transport I know of has an initiative value it's automatically gone, no rolling necessary.

Anytime you run into this situation, its usually an indicator that something isn't being played right.

If something doesn't have a stat value doesn't mean it autofails. It means it never takes the test in the first place.

Fragile wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
What brought this up is I am making a C'tan with the Times Arrow power, and wondered how that would work against a transport and, specifically the models in a transport. If they get destroyed as well, it's far more worth it just to use times arrow, since no transport I know of has an initiative value it's automatically gone, no rolling necessary.

Anytime you run into this situation, its usually an indicator that something isn't being played right.

How so? I remember coming across a situation once where my necron warriors went up against a wraithlord in CC. No rolling necessary there, they couldn't wound it. Only rolling to be done was my armor saves.

There was also the emplacements like thunder-fire cannons in 5th. If you shot the techmarine down and assaulted the cannon, it was automatically gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Spectral Dragon wrote:
What brought this up is I am making a C'tan with the Times Arrow power, and wondered how that would work against a transport and, specifically the models in a transport. If they get destroyed as well, it's far more worth it just to use times arrow, since no transport I know of has an initiative value it's automatically gone, no rolling necessary.

Anytime you run into this situation, its usually an indicator that something isn't being played right.

If something doesn't have a stat value doesn't mean it autofails. It means it never takes the test in the first place.

Actually, yes, it does. BRB, pg 7

Automatic pass or fail
....//.... However, if a model has a characteristic of 0, or (-) it automatically fails the test.

0 or - is not the same as not having a stat.

Vehicles apart from walkers don't have a S value and cannot make strength tests. Any power or rule that requires a S test cannot effect them.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
0 or - is not the same as not having a stat.

Vehicles apart from walkers don't have a S value and cannot make strength tests. Any power or rule that requires a S test cannot effect them.

Pgs 410-413

Afraid they do.

Nothing on those pages that gives Vehicles a S value.

And if you are attempting to force a test, then you must have that characteristic to test on.

Since you can't prove that a vehicle has a specific characteristic then you can't say what they need to pass the test.

Essentially, the game breaks as we go in an infinite loop of being unable to determine the indeterminate stat of a vehicle

Actually, he is going to say that the - in the index in the stat value is their Str.

That is incorrect, as it is a formatting issue to get walkers in the same chart as vehicles.

Fragile wrote:
Nothing on those pages that gives Vehicles a S value.

For some reason I thought we were talking init value, apologies for that.

EDIT 3: What causes a Strength test?

The portal of exile off a Monolith does I believe. Most of the other things that remove model(s) from play force a test on a characteristic that vehicles don't have, or specifically exempt vehicles. The SAG may be the one exemption.

The portal of exile also specifically states that a model without a strength value automatically passes. Had forgotten about that one, though. Seems for the most part this subject has been explored, thanks for the help everyone.

going back to another of my original questions: Times Arrow says "remove as casualty," is this the same as "remove from play?" I think the only reason this would make a difference is against a fellow necron player with reanimation protocols.

RFP and RFPaaC are still hotly debated by lots of people. I still say they are different.

The SoB FAQ for St. Celestine seems to equate them, which is the direction I lean; but there is not a really clear consensus. It's been hotly debated.

I think that is a fair summary of the positions and a balanced view of the arguments before they descend into a 20 page thread. Please lock this now!