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Right. Haven't been made any threads lately, but something's been bothering me. What inspired my internal rage was this video:




Aside from the obvious stupidity of the tests they put the gun through, I was surprised at how militaristic the police were, or at least claimed to be. Not only do they have raging high and tights, skivvies and other "flags" that identify them as military types (or wannabees), but they talk in a way, and swing themselves around like they're really hot gak. Now, I do understand that there are plenty of veterans serving in police organizations, but certainly not all of them are, and the attitude is prolifically pervasive. Even in my local police force of about ten officers, at least five of them act this way. Certainly, an aura of professionalism and respect is mandatory of the Police, but can't they think of any other way to earn it?

And the equipment. God, the mall ninja crap they wear all over them is just bizarre. A plate carrier is a brilliant thing. It provides the needed protection from garden-variety projectiles, and also gives the Soldier plenty of room to put his equipment, like radios, ammunition, tools and things like that. It's a self contained system. So, in that respect, I see why police use them. However. For the purpose that police need them (mostly low-profile, passive protection while in uniform), it doesn't make sense to wear a military grade Plate Carrier, when there are many options tailored specifically to the needs (and body types) of police officers. Equipment, like handcuffs, ammunition, batons, and the like were traditionally kept on belts, and I must admit, that still seems like the best way to do it. What a police officer needs to carry isn't serious enough to invest in Military grade load bearing equipment.

In general, it seems like these police "operators" are more interested in playing dress-up and firing off Machine Guns than actually doing their jobs. I respect police officers a lot, and most of them have no interest in this sort of thing, or even what gun they're using. They clock in, get in their car, do their jobs and go home. The people who claim to be "operators" or "special response teams" seem to be a bit like SWAT, but often in towns or municipalities that have basically no need for such services. In certain cities, the need is definitely there, but I imagine the officers would hold themselves to different standards. I think the people in the video were from a Prison security agency, which is still laughable. I understand the need for quick and decisive action in the event of a "rebellion" or whatever they want to call it, but this guy's swagger just seemed totally unwarranted.

Where did this attitude come from? Is the militarization of Law Enforcement a natural phenomenon, or is it some cog in the Military-industrial complex? Is it anything to worry about? I noticed the Officers in Anaheim were dressed head to toe in ACUs and other crap, just to heckle people on the street.

Preach it. I see that crap here in Manchester too, and it's dumb.

Jeff Cooper's rolling in his grave.

Edit: It's just the continuing rise of tacticool. Dunno if there's any reason for it - my theory is that folks see pictures of guys decked out over in Iraq or Afghanistan and wannabe it up - but for whatever reason, taping a Swiss Army knife to your AR and wearing quadruple drop legs is just the thing to do among a certain set.

I don't understand what the fat green blob is attempting to prove.

I don't mind SRT and Swat guys, if they call themselves an operator punch them directly in the junk. They do serve a purpose, but I think they are over and misused. Some guys are just geardo wannabes who may also get off on trampling your civil rights. Hidden in there somewhere are really good cops.

And also KSG: overpriced fail stick. I do like the forward ejecting rifle they have though.

What's wrong with people enjoying their job?

 Grey Templar wrote:
What's wrong with people enjoying their job?

Not a thing.

And there's not even anything wrong with enjoying your job in part due to how you look in the mirror when all kitted up. But I'd just question whether a lot of this stuff is necessary - both the gear and the testing - and, if it's not necessary, it's potentially a liability.

If the department owns the equipment its probably in the event of a situation where the equipment would be invaluable.

In which case I see nothing wrong with the police officer using it on his everyday beat as a personal choice.

And if the extra stuff is the guys personal equipment, again its his personal choice to use it. So no real problem.

I'd rather have cops ready for anything then for a situation to develop and them having to wait for their extra gear to arrive.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
And the equipment. God, the mall ninja crap they wear all over them is just bizarre. A plate carrier is a brilliant thing. It provides the needed protection from garden-variety projectiles, and also gives the Soldier plenty of room to put his equipment, like radios, ammunition, tools and things like that. It's a self contained system. So, in that respect, I see why police use them. However. For the purpose that police need them (mostly low-profile, passive protection while in uniform), it doesn't make sense to wear a military grade Plate Carrier, when there are many options tailored specifically to the needs (and body types) of police officers. Equipment, like handcuffs, ammunition, batons, and the like were traditionally kept on belts, and I must admit, that still seems like the best way to do it. What a police officer needs to carry isn't serious enough to invest in Military grade load bearing equipment.

You ever tried getting in and out of a car a hundred times a day with a gun, baton, radio, spray, cuffs, torch, gloves, ammo and whatever else the department decides is mandatory on your belt?

It's a major pain in the ass. Hell, even just getting to your mobile phone can be a pain in the ass. Load bearing vests are a far superior option, and allow for easy up-armouring (as opposed to trying to fit a covert vest under your shirt) with high-vis attachments for traffic management.

A lot of cops don't take their weapons and defense training seriously enough. They get complacent, fat, lazy and they get killed.

Most of the videos you see, like the one you posted, will feature training officers. It's their job to try and make sure those fat, lazy officers out there step up their game and DON'T get killed, so naturally they have more 'swagger' and attempt to encourage it in others.

Further, who doesn't like playing with cool toys? I remember during my academy training we were given the spiel about not shooting at cars. You're not going to stop the car, and you have no control over where the bullet is going afterwards. It's almost never a good idea. To illustrate the point, the OST (operations skills and tactics) instructors presented a video they'd made of themselves shooting at a car with all sorts of cool guns they'd borrowed from the SOG (special operations group, SWAT equivalent). After about fifteen seconds it become apparent that the entire video was just an excuse for them to shoot a car with machine guns. And who can blame them, because that looked like a lot of fun!

Well, shooting a car can be viable. Assuming you can kill the driver and avoid the car wildly moving afterwards.

Its also good if you want to stop a car by shooting its tires. Well, at least slow it down anyway.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well, shooting a car can be viable. Assuming you can kill the driver and avoid the car wildly moving afterwards.

Its also good if you want to stop a car by shooting its tires. Well, at least slow it down anyway.

Both are way beyond the abilities of trained shooters. There's no justification for discharging a firearm if there isn't a reasonable threat of death or serious injury, so you don't shoot at a car making a get-away. You only shoot at it if it's running you down, and only then if you can't get out of the way.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
Right. Haven't been made any threads lately, but something's been bothering me. What inspired my internal rage was this video

So we're filled with rage because the law enforcement officials that get called in to do what is essentially a military operation, dress and act like they are in the military?

Calm down. For every one of these dudes, there are 10+ Police Officers that are doing community policing.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I think the people in the video were from a Prison security agency, which is still laughable. I understand the need for quick and decisive action in the event of a "rebellion" or whatever they want to call it, but this guy's swagger just seemed totally unwarranted.

Because they work in a prison, its laughable to act/carry a tough guy swagger? You are aware that a correctional officer is surrounded by violent criminals on a daily basis? How should one act when massively outnumbered by mostly violent offenders in an environment where said offenders have nothing to lose? A CO has more direct contact with violent criminals in a single business day than most police will have in a week. The tough guy attitude/swagger is usually a defense mechanism to cope with the stress of constant physical/verbal abuse a CO faces on a daily basis.

I suspect it has more to do with "operator" being the chosen moniker for everybody these days, and all the attendant gear fetish that comes with it. It used to have a pretty specific connotation - Tier 1 secret squirrel types. Now it's everybody from the Special Tactics team down at the Springfield Mall to the guy who took a Defensive Pistol Basics course once. Claiming that kind of parity via the cache that particular term has in the subculture is...I don't know. Just something rubs me the wrong way about it. It just reeks of style over substance, which isn't helpful to anybody.

Kaldor wrote:

Most of the videos you see, like the one you posted, will feature training officers. It's their job to try and make sure those fat, lazy officers out there step up their game and DON'T get killed, so naturally they have more 'swagger' and attempt to encourage it in others.

I never thought about that. That makes a lot of sense, actually. It makes the rank and file officer a little more eager to follow their example, if only a little bit.

I had a bit of a chat about this with my dad, who's a physical security person for the Marine Corps. He basically sympathized with my sentiment, that your average officer being strapped head to toe in tacticool gear is ridiculous, but he mentioned in no small detail that most of these "special response team" guys are prior military. I didn't really know that, but it doesn't change my opinion very much. Part of leaving the military and transitioning back into the private sector is abandoning the regimentation and habits of the military... In addition to that, it doesn't give them a free pass to be an obnoxious gear-head.

Touching on the Special Response/SWAT fellas, I get that they need the best gear available. They've gone through a decent amount of training and hopefully experience that mandates them wearing tactical things. But, in a lot of America, SWAT members are drawn from the main force, and called on when needed, so there's usually a reason to wear all that stuff, rather than going on patrol, or guard duty with it.

 AustonT wrote:
I don't understand what the fat green blob is attempting to prove.

I don't mind SRT and Swat guys, if they call themselves an operator punch them directly in the junk. They do serve a purpose, but I think they are over and misused. Some guys are just geardo wannabes who may also get off on trampling your civil rights. Hidden in there somewhere are really good cops.

And also KSG: overpriced fail stick. I do like the forward ejecting rifle they have though.

This, all the way through the KSG.

Operator just seems to be the term du jour for "I do special stuff" it's dumb but it's the buzzword of the day and helps SWAT teams get funding I'm sure.

How do you guys feel about street cops with patrol rifles as opposed to just the shotguns of yester-year?

Here's Pt 1 of the documentary of the North Hollywood shootout that spawned SWAT teams in America.

SWAT teams were around far, far before the North Hollywood shootout.

The North Hollywood shootout, however, led to the rise of what were called "trunk guns" in that officers started having rifles/carbines in their cars to respond to potential situations.

And really, there's no difference between the police officers who are gear/gunheads and private citizens who are obsessive over guns.

Well, there is a difference in that police officers who have such interests are usually those who are involved in the SWAT/SRT/HRTs,which mind you are not necessarily exclusive to one department. Depending upon the area, these teams also are able to be called up by federal agencies which need the muscle for an operation. They also are potentially part of a state police agency but then dished out to areas as they see fit.

 Kanluwen wrote:
SWAT teams were around far, far before the North Hollywood shootout.

The North Hollywood shootout, however, led to the rise of what were called "trunk guns" in that officers started having rifles/carbines in their cars to respond to potential situations.

And really, there's no difference between the police officers who are gear/gunheads and private citizens who are obsessive over guns.

Well, there is a difference in that police officers who have such interests are usually those who are involved in the SWAT/SRT/HRTs,which mind you are not necessarily exclusive to one department. Depending upon the area, these teams also are able to be called up by federal agencies which need the muscle for an operation. They also are potentially part of a state police agency but then dished out to areas as they see fit.

Maybe in your neck of the woods. Here the local Pohleese had shotguns and AR15s in their vehicles since at least the 70s.

Well yeah, some departments certainly did have it. It wasn't as widespread as it became post-Hollywood shootout though.

And shotguns were common no matter what. But AR15s weren't as much. You'd see maybe a few MP5s here or there, or a few guys considered to be "hardcore" who'd have an M14 or AR15 but they were nowhere near as common.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 AustonT wrote:
I don't understand what the fat green blob is attempting to prove.

I don't mind SRT and Swat guys, if they call themselves an operator punch them directly in the junk. They do serve a purpose, but I think they are over and misused. Some guys are just geardo wannabes who may also get off on trampling your civil rights. Hidden in there somewhere are really good cops.

And also KSG: overpriced fail stick. I do like the forward ejecting rifle they have though.

This, all the way through the KSG.

Operator just seems to be the term du jour for "I do special stuff" it's dumb but it's the buzzword of the day and helps SWAT teams get funding I'm sure.

How do you guys feel about street cops with patrol rifles as opposed to just the shotguns of yester-year?

Here's Pt 1 of the documentary of the North Hollywood shootout that spawned SWAT teams in America.

As Kan said, SWAT and similar teams proliferation around the country vastly predate the North Hollywood affair. The War on Drugs has more to do with .mil equipment being subsidized to north bumfeth county sheriffs super commando team one than this. NH taught us a rather obvious lesson. A sidearm and a shotgun aren't the only weapons beat cops should have on patrol. Carbines and the 5.56 870's were a solid response and warranted. Things like the Beretta carbine should have been obvious by the late 90's if not sooner and yet Beretta didn't deliver to market until 2003 and Glock still hasn't. Taking the familiar controls of a cops side arm and adding a 16inch barrel and long sight radius is one of those de de dee obvious moments and yet still we don't see a real patrol carbine to match the duty weapon.
I wrote almost a whole paragraph about "operator" and deleted it. I stand by what I said before: anyone who claims to be an operator who isn't referring to machines( preferably in a different context) or special ops deserves an immediate falcon punch. The group of guys that have earned that moniker is small.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Well yeah, some departments certainly did have it. It wasn't as widespread as it became post-Hollywood shootout though.

And shotguns were common no matter what. But AR15s weren't as much. You'd see maybe a few MP5s here or there, or a few guys considered to be "hardcore" who'd have an M14 or AR15 but they were nowhere near as common.

back in the diggity dog day you used to see a lot of cops with FA mini 14s because they were cheap; stamp and all. and you didn't feel bad about letting it bounce around with the tire iron. Then again those guys expected and had some real shots at seeing paramilitary groups on the streets. Ahh the 70's, wait why are we nostalgic about the 70's?

Wasn't SWAT formed in response to the Houston gunman, who holed him self up in a clock tower and the local police didn't have any guns that could get sufficient range on him

It's not only a police thing either though.

Did 5-6 years of EMS work and volunteered at a Fire Department.

Most of us just carried our department issue gear and only made minimal additions and replacements. Only "non-issue" gear I had was a more comfortable pair of structure-boots, better gloves, a better attachment for my flashlight, a "bail-out" kit, and a piece of hose that I turned into a pocket protector for some screw drivers and stuff.

So 2 replacements and 3 additions to my issued gear, which was not unusual.

Then we had guys who looked like soldiers, stuff hanging from every loop, every pocket loaded, flashlight on their jacket, another in their pocket, another on their helmet next to their camera.

Gear heads are in every profession.

Police are considered a paramilitary organization and many members of police forces have served in the military. Many stations have SWAT teams that are also pulling patrol duty. SWAT is just an extension of their duties. SWAT teams are also often shared between departments. Most cops don't go to a firing range more than twice a year. And as for military gear, I heard an interesting story today. Apparently some police chief or sheriff (I forget which he was) tried to make his police force military. Got them berets and military boots, basically turning the uniform into military garb, and more military like equipment like a military APC, all on county money. He was fired.

I was surprised at how militaristic the police were

Why? What was the expectation?

Not only do they have raging high and tights, skivvies and other "flags" that identify them as military types (or wannabees), but they talk in a way, and swing themselves around like they're really hot gak

I don't think I would want to have much hair on my head in that line of work either. I hear you on people walking around like they're god's gift...but that goes for a whole lot of people in general, i'd kill myself if I raged over that whenever I noticed it.

What a police officer needs to carry isn't serious enough to invest in Military grade load bearing equipment.

Unless you're telling him to respond to an active shooter call. Or to go into an occupied drug lab. Or maybe go arrest that guy downtown wanted for murdering his girlfriend, has pictures of himself with an AK on his facebook, and has been jailed for multiple felonies beforehand.

Secondly, if you give me the options of keeping my gear (and thus, weight) on my chest rather than my hip? I'd tell the guy wanting it on his belt that he is absolutely nuts. When you have your weight on your belt, things move. Things jump underneath your soft parts when you attempt to go from "6`2 tall man" to "6.2mm tall I-really-dont-want-to-be-here-anymore". Things become hard to reach in wierd or cramped spaces....hard to find something to like about belt carry when presented with other options.

Is the militarization of Law Enforcement a natural phenomenon, or is it some cog in the Military-industrial complex?

Natural progression of events. The only part the "Military industrial complex" has played is making boatloads of M16s and gear decades ago that are now being surplussed to departments. Bringing me to...

Is it anything to worry about? I noticed the Officers in Anaheim were dressed head to toe in ACUs and other crap, just to heckle people on the street.

ACUcops, while hilarious, might be a penny pinch move. Some administrator gets uniforms for free and gets to look good that we have such absolute BADASSES watching the streets. Nothing that overly worries me, but I sure can point and laugh.

 Kaldor wrote:
Both are way beyond the abilities of trained shooters. There's no justification for discharging a firearm if there isn't a reasonable threat of death or serious injury, so you don't shoot at a car making a get-away. You only shoot at it if it's running you down, and only then if you can't get out of the way.

Sounds like you just aren't using a big enough gun. Speed limits shall be enforced by hellfire missiles.

what exactly is the issue people have in this thread with military boots? There's really a good fit for any one who's wandering around on their feet all day and might find said feet in dangerous positions. Would you really want to chase a perp down an alley in dress shoes? Or even be on your feet in dress shoes all day? The tread, reinforced toe and heel and thick sole of a military styled boot is a good fit for law enforcement.

Everyone knows you only need a good ole fashioned, 'ello 'ello 'ello whats this then, to do police work

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kaldor wrote:
Both are way beyond the abilities of trained shooters. There's no justification for discharging a firearm if there isn't a reasonable threat of death or serious injury, so you don't shoot at a car making a get-away. You only shoot at it if it's running you down, and only then if you can't get out of the way.

Sounds like you just aren't using a big enough gun. Speed limits shall be enforced by hellfire missiles.

and then there's canine units... the one's around here don't have much to do in the way of paperwork. Typically the dog gets deployed and someone other than the handler has to do the report on the damage that thing caused.

I had the smart idea to volunteer to wear the fancy training suit for a K9 unit at a safety fair once, it didn't turn out too well.

Simple answer, we men are macho donkey-caves!

I dont like cops, I dont like military either. Who was the airforce guy in here claimed to me his training was "as bad ass as SF"?

And remember the guy in here who said "border patrol guys training would make SEALS cry" ;-)

Basically, most men like to act like Charlie Big Spuds. 90% of the soldiers I ever meet endlessly bs, and needlessly wear big knives on their gear despite being armed with firearms. ;-)

I think the easy answer is that there are alot of look at me tough guy donkey-caves in the police department,but no more than any other job where blokes think they can get away with conveying an aura of badassery. Be it uniformed or otherwise. A mate of mine once told me he thought his firefighter training was as hard as SF training!

I blame Hollywood.

Well...and testicles obviously. :-D

Obviously my RAF Flight LIne training was harder than SF...
Tactical mini-bar raids are not for the faint hearted...
I remember one time I had to check into a hotel that didn't have room service!
Oh the humanity.


War is hell boys.