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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Unbalanced or frustrating rules are the bane of many a 40k player, and a major detractor from the game as a whole. We cling to infrequent, minor FAQ changes to keep outdated rules halfway decent, and rely on codex creep to dethrone reigning armies, sometimes years. However, imagine with me a world where GW releases minor rebalances to every army a few months after the codex hits, and to every army with a new rules edition. Imagine, if you will, a newfound committment to the amazing story of the game as a source of inspiration.

My question to you is, how would you fix current imbalances with rules changes that reflect the fluff? Revitalize underpowered units, discourage overpowered spammy play, and keep it interesting within the fluff. Here's my take, using the armies I know.

Space Wolves: nobody needs a tweak like these guys do.

New Special Rule: Pack Hierarchy. The space wolves train their recruits in the arts of the battlefield, on the battlefield. The most elite and veteran units of their force are rare, and the younger initiates common. A space wolf player may only take 1 grey hunters unit for every 1 Blood Claws/Skyclaws pack, and may only take 1 unit of each of the following per force org. Chart: Long Fangs, Wolf Guard, Thunderwolf Cavalry. If Logan Grimnar or Ragnar Blackmane is chosen as an HQ choice, these restrictions are waived as the great Wolf Lords field their most elite troops en masse.

New Special Rule: "Russ never found his own two feet inadequate!": Only up to half of the total unitst in a Space Wolf army may take a Rhino, Land Raider or Razorback as a dedicated transport.

New Special Rule added to Lucas the Trickster: The concept of honor is a foriegn one to Lucas, and more often than not a shouted challenge will be met only with a gleeful laugh from somewhere within the swirling melée, followed by a blade in the back. Whenever Lucas issues a challenge or is challenged, roll a die. On a 5+, "engaging the opponent honorably" is a part of Lucas' scheme, and the challenge occurs normally. Otherwise, no callenge occurs and all combatants fight normally, including Lucas and his prospective opponent.

Add to the end of Jaws of the World Wolf: This extremely difficult to control power makes up for it in potency. Roll a scatter die to determine the direction the line travels, the first model hit makes a Deny the Witch Roll. On a direct hit, the Space Wolf player chooses the direction. Friendly units Deny the Witch on a 5+ as the rune priest frantically tries to miss his battle brothers.

New Special Rule: Wolf Fang Claws of the Sky-Wolf. "And in those days a senior techmarine of the Salamanders did cone to fenris to treat with the highest ranking Iron Priests. Thusly he spake 'Battle brothers, this is a template for a flak missile. You've probably already got this because we've had it the entire time, but you're going to want to dust it off. So, flak missile. It's really not that hard to pronounce, say it with me, flak. Missile. Nothing to do with w-' Hence, the techpriest was interrupted by the exclamations of the Iron Priests that clearly this name was inadequate. He did leave, rolling his eyes as the venerable Space Wolves were discussing the possibility of inventing a new deity just to name the missiles after, and what kind of animal it should be. They had settled on something that stalked through the sky, hunting down prey as if by scent and bringing it down with mighty fangs, or possibly claws."

Space wolves may purchase flak missiles for their missile launchers for 10 points, but must verbally announce their use with their full Fenrisian name to their opponent.

Orks:

New Special Rule added to Weirdboyz: Speshul Tricks. A weirdboy may select one power from Pyromancy normally. Once the power is chosen, roll a die and replace the entry in the normal weirdboy psychic chart with that power. A warphead (or ol' zogwart) may replace two powers in this manner.

New Special Rule added to Deffkoptas: Dogfightas. Deffkopta pilots revel in the chance to pit their improbable craft against other competitors for precious airspace, and engage in dramatic aerial duels using the tried and true ork method of shooting: more dakka. Any deffkopta outfitted with a big shoota and no other upgrade gains the skyfire special rule.

(Because every army should have access to skyfire outside of their own fliers, even if it's at an unreliable strength)

New Special Rule added to Ork Boyz: Call of da Waaagh. When a sizable enough ork force gathers in one spot, more boyz will often show up unbidden to the fight, holding whatever weapons they can scrounge together to try and get a piece of the action. Any ork boyz mob using choppa and sluggas, without a dedicated transport or the 'ard boyz upgrade costs 2 points less per model.

(A way to throw a bone to 'green tide' players and offset the Overwatch rules seriously impeding the usefulness of choppa boyz)

New Special Rule Added to Nob: "If he kicks it, den I'M da boss!" Any nob model will only succeed a 'Look Out, Sir' roll on a 4+.

(A possible slight nerf to Nob Bikers mostly, though it might not be strictly necessary since LOS cheese is gone with character units. MANz, chosen specically by the boss as a bodyguard, are presumably a bit more loyal, overconfident or too slow to get out of the way.)

Necrons: This army is absolutely goofy right now. The challenge (and I don't pretend to have an answer, only a few ideas) is whether it's possible to rebalance flyer spam and the ridiculousness of gauss fire and MSS with some interesting rules.

Added at the end of Mindshackle Scarabs: The necron nobility, particularly in the company of their peers, will always try to maintain at least the appearance of 'honour' when called to a personal duel. This does not, of course, prevent the employment of more underhanded measures when victory is not assured. Mindshackle Scarabs cannot be used in the first round of a Challenge, though they take effect in subsequent rounds.

(What do you think? Still worth it for 15 points certainly, but it breaks up some of the ridiculousness of, for example, ghazghull having a better than 50% chance to lose or at best tie a challenge with a 50 point necron lord)

Change Gauss Special Rule to: hits from a gauss weapon will always wound on a 6, regardless of toughness, and when a 6 is rolled for an armour penetration roll, always roll on the vehicle damage chart, subtracting 1 from the result. Hull points are only lost if the weapon actually scores a glancing or penetrating hit.

(This is an attempt to bring gauss warriorspam back to a good middle ground-still cabable of mutilating a vehicle, immobilizing, destroying a weapon, etc. but not the devastating instakill it is now.)

New Special Rule added to Flayed Ones: Unwelcome guests. A necron unit may fire into a close combat where the only friendly models engaged if it passes a morale check. Fifty percent of the hits scored (Rounded up) are applied to the Flayed Ones. If the Ld test is failed, the unit gives up its shooting phase.

(Intended to give Flayed Ones a point- it may be too powerful, since necrons are all Ld 10, the test would rarely be failed.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/03 14:36:02


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Pack Heirarchy:
Ridiculous, but it has potential.

Not every Space Wolf force contains Blood Claws. Your first rule basically prevents anyone from taking Grey Hunters in games of less than 1000 points. The idea isn't terrible, but that kind of restriction is. You shouldn't block basic infantry in such a way - it's like saying "You must have two Scout Squads for every Tactical Squad".

This version would make more sense;
The Space Wolves rank up through attrition, making their most experienced troops rare and powerful. They may only take one unit of Long Fangs, Wolf Guard or Thunderwolf Cavalry for every two Troops choices selected. Naturally, if the army is led by Logan Grimnar this requirement is waived for the appropriate unit.

Russ never found his own feet inadequate!
Again, too limiting. This kind of thing has to scale by points value, and Rhinos are hardly broken! If you must include something like this;

No more than half the infantry units in a Space Wolf army may be mounted in Dedicated Transports.

Challenge? HA!
This doesn't make much sense. Lukas loves to fight, and someone stepping in front of him with a sword will just get cut down first. This is a problem endemic to the Challenges system rather than anything to do with the character, and doesn't 'fix' anything.

Relic of Eternal War
... were the first two rules you suggested just to disguise the fact that you, as a Space Wolf, feel that Lukas and Bjorn are underpowered?

Jaws
No. Line Attacks are useless if you can't direct the line, and to be honest, psychic powers as the Wolves use them just don't randomly jink around. Add to the fact that Line Attacks are all over the place now, and Jaws is no longer the special snowflake it was... this is completely unnecesary and I won't suggest an alternative.

Speshul Trikz
Why Pyromancy?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






1) The three major complaints (at least that I hear) about wolves are Long Fang Spam, Razorback Spam, and Jaws. This first rule could be changed to one for one claws and hunters, but I thought it appropriate that grey hunters would not represent the entirety of every force. It doesn't make sense for people to break the game by spamming units that are meant to be incredibly rare, hence the "one per" limits.

2) Your version of that rule does make more sense, and it was mostly aimed at levelling our razorback spam, possibly the least space-wolfy tactic I've ever heard of.

3) This was actually meant as a slight nerf to Lukas' challenge potential. He loves chaos and battle, so he wouldn't honorably stand off and fight one particular foe unless it was part of his plan, and he certainly wouldn't thrrow himself at an extremely powerful opponent as a suicide bomber, as he's used now.

4) For his points, I don't see how Bjorn isn't currently underpowered. With the new gets hot rule and hull points, he's a 270 point detriment to your army. The oldest living space wolf should have a little more durability than he currently has.


5) As far as I know, the only two line attacks are the necrons' Death Ray and Jaws, and both are considered overpowered. Jaws also has twice the range as a maxed DR (Which if I recall correctly goes 2d6? It could be 3d6, still far less than Jaws) and Circumvents eternal warrior and invuln saves. It needs to have some kind of nerf.

6) Pyromancy seems to be the only one people can agree isn't overpowered in some way, uses an ork in the rulebook description, and is simple and destructive, just like the orks like it




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as a post-script, for some reason the proposed rules i'd entered for the orks and necron got cut off. This wasn't intended to be a purely SW thread. I'll retype them once I get back home to where I have them written down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/02 15:53:23


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






the_scotsman wrote:
PEOPLE AREN'T PLAYING THE GAME THE WAY I WANT THEM TO PLAY IT!!!! HERES SOME RULES TO CRIPPLE THEIR NON-FLUFF ARMY AND MAKE THEM PLAY USING MY FLUFF!!!!!


No.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Pack Heirarchy:
Ridiculous, but it has potential.

Not every Space Wolf force contains Blood Claws. Your first rule basically prevents anyone from taking Grey Hunters in games of less than 1000 points. The idea isn't terrible, but that kind of restriction is. You shouldn't block basic infantry in such a way - it's like saying "You must have two Scout Squads for every Tactical Squad".

This version would make more sense;
The Space Wolves rank up through attrition, making their most experienced troops rare and powerful. They may only take one unit of Long Fangs, Wolf Guard or Thunderwolf Cavalry for every two Troops choices selected. Naturally, if the army is led by Logan Grimnar this requirement is waived for the appropriate unit.

Russ never found his own feet inadequate!
Again, too limiting. This kind of thing has to scale by points value, and Rhinos are hardly broken! If you must include something like this;

No more than half the infantry units in a Space Wolf army may be mounted in Dedicated Transports.

Challenge? HA!
This doesn't make much sense. Lukas loves to fight, and someone stepping in front of him with a sword will just get cut down first. This is a problem endemic to the Challenges system rather than anything to do with the character, and doesn't 'fix' anything.

Relic of Eternal War
... were the first two rules you suggested just to disguise the fact that you, as a Space Wolf, feel that Lukas and Bjorn are underpowered?

Jaws
No. Line Attacks are useless if you can't direct the line, and to be honest, psychic powers as the Wolves use them just don't randomly jink around. Add to the fact that Line Attacks are all over the place now, and Jaws is no longer the special snowflake it was... this is completely unnecesary and I won't suggest an alternative.

Speshul Trikz
Why Pyromancy?


You know what, as a wolf player I like a lot of this alteration to the OPs suggestion

One very two may be a bit too limiting though. One for one I feel would work best. or even scale it up by one for one then two for the second and three for the third. So a total of six troops for all 3 of the other sections force org slots to unlock is still required just less its needed for the lower end. Mind you this little penalty would require a balance to it, something logan could also do without if his company ignores the limitiation. Lord knows what but its a bit unfair imposing a limitation on an army without balancing it.

In any rendition of limiting transport availablity it should be balanced by a transport price reduction equal to the percentage of the army tats affected. On a side note I disagree with one aspect of this being drop pods should be immune to any alteration. We don't teleport into battel like other terminators, that's already a limitation imposed on us requiring us to use Drop pods in teleportations place (IE forcing us to pay for our deep strike). Add to this our transports like drop pods and godhammer pattern land raiders are transporting 2 models less than other codex equivilents (for no reason) we already have several imposed limitations on transports without adding one as wide swept as this.

As you said the rest of the wolf suggestions are not needed, lukas and bjorn are powerful enough. I chuckle when I think of lukas being involved in challenges with the likes of Abaddon and ghaz.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I think one major change that could be reasonable implemented would be to Challenges. I like the concept, but I don't like the idea that plucky Sergeant Joe can challenge someone such as Lysander, the Swamlord or a Bloodthirster and prevent them from being able to attack the rest of the unit. I think the best way to do this would be to force challengers to take a leadership test before they can offer said challenge. If they pass, they can challenge as normal, if they fail, the challenge fails, with possibly a -1 modifier to their Ld if for example, the target causes Fear, or something along those lines.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

 Valkyrie wrote:
I think one major change that could be reasonable implemented would be to Challenges. I like the concept, but I don't like the idea that plucky Sergeant Joe can challenge someone such as Lysander, the Swamlord or a Bloodthirster and prevent them from being able to attack the rest of the unit. I think the best way to do this would be to force challengers to take a leadership test before they can offer said challenge. If they pass, they can challenge as normal, if they fail, the challenge fails, with possibly a -1 modifier to their Ld if for example, the target causes Fear, or something along those lines.


Well that won't make sense, what if Lysander wants to challenge sergeant Joe, he'll still have to take the test. Perhaps when challenging someone with a higher base wounds than yourself?

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

 motyak wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
I think one major change that could be reasonable implemented would be to Challenges. I like the concept, but I don't like the idea that plucky Sergeant Joe can challenge someone such as Lysander, the Swamlord or a Bloodthirster and prevent them from being able to attack the rest of the unit. I think the best way to do this would be to force challengers to take a leadership test before they can offer said challenge. If they pass, they can challenge as normal, if they fail, the challenge fails, with possibly a -1 modifier to their Ld if for example, the target causes Fear, or something along those lines.


Well that won't make sense, what if Lysander wants to challenge sergeant Joe, he'll still have to take the test. Perhaps when challenging someone with a higher base wounds than yourself?


Didn't actually occur to me. Like I said the idea needs some refining, although your suggestion would be a good way to do it.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

But again not perfect. Then Lysander (a fearless bastard) would still need to test to step up against a DP or something. So perhaps special characters/anyone who causes fear is exempt. I dunno, its a difficult thing to tweak just right

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

Righteous Zeal. If you're gonna force us to charge at the enemy then for the love of squirrels let us consolidate into CC again.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






My intention is not to "cripple" anything. Currently, though, certain space wolf units have advantages that make them more powerful than codex marine counterparts, for no disadvantage. Solution one would be to increase the points cost, but I wanted to see if there was a way to make the army more interesting at the same time.

Easiest example is grey hunters. Cost less than a standard tactical marine, and for that you get: Acute senses, counter-charge, swappable melée and ranged kits, and flexible squad sizes. You only lose the ability to split a squad of ten into a squad of five.

Blood claws, however, have 1 less BS and WS and suffer from Headstrong. They're useful assault troops, but maybe a shade underpowered.

Having a 1:1 ratio of them would balance things without having to argue over point values.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to play how they want to. But flexibility and adaptibility should be what C:SM offers over the more "specialized" marine armies-SW being "the same, but better!" is what's lead to the cheesy reputation they've got.

And, to reiterate, the special rule for Lucas is intended as a nerf. Lucas is currently almost an end-all in challenges, since he's a) extraordinarily hard to hit with the Pelt, b) cheap compared to most HQ slots people sling him against and c) Has a more than 50% chance of taking anybody down with him. As it stands, a player with ghazzy or abbadon hates to see Lucas on the board, because it means his big expensive character can be tarpitted and maybe even wiped out with no invuls, eternal warriors or whatever allowed. At least out of a challenge you can use pile in to avoid base to base with Lucas.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

the_scotsman wrote:

Easiest example is grey hunters. Cost less than a standard tactical marine, and for that you get: Acute senses, counter-charge, swappable melée and ranged kits, and flexible squad sizes. You only lose the ability to split a squad of ten into a squad of five.


You also lose Combat Tactics (which is pretty good these days) and the option of taking a heavy weapon (which doesn't really matter). The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though, as you said.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Easiest example is grey hunters. Cost less than a standard tactical marine, and for that you get: Acute senses, counter-charge, swappable melée and ranged kits, and flexible squad sizes. You only lose the ability to split a squad of ten into a squad of five.


You also lose Combat Tactics (which is pretty good these days) and the option of taking a heavy weapon (which doesn't really matter). The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though, as you said.


Yeah a 10 point las cannon with 4+ wounds blocking it never made a huge difference. *Add sarcasm*

Base cost of the Tac squad includes the sarge and the extra point per model accounts for the free and reduced cost weapons, which I might add the heavy weapons they get 5 points cheaper before the included cost reduction. If you feel like complaining look at the current (not new codex) CSMs. They get ultragrit, +1 Ld and the option for 20 strong unit for waaaaaay more negatives. They don't get ATSKNF (Arrguably one of the most unfair/imbalanced USRs in the game, seriously it should be like 10 points minimum just for this rule), they to are limited in weapon selection until they are 10 strong, they don't get reduced cost anything and they get all this for the brilliant cost of 15pts/model. Yeah Tacs are getting ripped off *add more sarcasm*

And that's even before we start comparing them to the same points equivilant of other races, wouldn't that be a hoot?

No combat tactics or no chapter tactics, that covers counter attack and acute senses. No character model and no heavy weapon, covers melee options and apparent ranged options. Combination of combat squads and the fact you can take the same reduced squad size (lord knows why you ever would) covers flexible squad sizes.

At this point I will say comparing units in a bubble will always find that one is 'better' than the other, GHs are better at close range fire fights and close combat while Tacs are better at over all tactical flexibility and medium range fire fights. It comes down the the codex as a whole to determine the over all balance, GHs rely on long fangs, dreads and other vehicles for fire support, a 10 man squad isn't going to last long charging up the field without fire support. Where as a Tac squad can combat squad to cover its advancing fire team or bounding overwatch with another squad to cover their own advance.

Nothing holds mid ground like Tac, fire warriors do it better but they are worse at close range than Tacs marines. Grey hunters take mid ground, they have an increased risk having to be so close to the enemy which means they require the extra close combat options and special weapon in place of a heavy. I would suggest anyone that finds grey hunters overpowered compared to Tacs is either ill informed or doesn't know how to use Tacs. Frankly you should stop attempting to use Tacs like GHs.

Blood claws are terrible compared to scouts, even in power armour and at 15 models strong. And they are even worse compared to codes marines. Heck compare scouts to Wolf scouts and the result is the same, BEL took a huge nerf because you can't assault from reserve anymore. Supper stoked we have to pay 3 points for our sniper rifles and get no option for camo clocks, which means theres no point in taking sniper rifles. But thats cool, both BCs and WSs have different combat roles than vanilla scouts, so no biggy.

On the topic of nerfs, Acute senses took a hit to the point of uselessness for the majority of an army that has it, only saga of the hunter+unit and wolf scouts get to benefit from it...yay. I'm so glad we have this blatantly unfair USR Acute senses on all of our units. *Sarcasm overload*
   
Made in us
Ferocious Blood Claw



United States

I like the fact that these proposed changes are based in the fluff but number 1 especialy doesnt make sense to me. From what I understand the battle you play is only a section of the full battle thats supposed to be going on. Now assuming I am not remembering correctly (even if I am not my point should still make sense) My army is lead by a Wolf Lord, if he is going into battle I would assume he would want the people he can rely on to get the job done working with him. So why would he have a bunch of youngins running around the battlefield who cant be trusted to get their job done? Instead of putting a cap on Grey Hunters consider making Blood Claws a 1+ choice. This way they will still get representation on the table and you dont deny a Wolf Lord the choice to have his trusted friends along.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Bausk wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Easiest example is grey hunters. Cost less than a standard tactical marine, and for that you get: Acute senses, counter-charge, swappable melée and ranged kits, and flexible squad sizes. You only lose the ability to split a squad of ten into a squad of five.


You also lose Combat Tactics (which is pretty good these days) and the option of taking a heavy weapon (which doesn't really matter). The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though, as you said.


Yeah a 10 point las cannon with 4+ wounds blocking it never made a huge difference. *Add sarcasm*



It doesn't make a huge difference when the dominating build is Razorback spam. The optimal range of both Tac squads and GH squads is 12", due to rapid fire. GH squads get additional CCWs and counter-attack, which is huge. Combat Tactics in 6th evens this out, but it doesn't make it equal. Having access to stuff like Wolf Standards and CML Wolf Guard (there's your heavy weapon for you BTW) further increases the gap.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in au
Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Bausk wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Easiest example is grey hunters. Cost less than a standard tactical marine, and for that you get: Acute senses, counter-charge, swappable melée and ranged kits, and flexible squad sizes. You only lose the ability to split a squad of ten into a squad of five.


You also lose Combat Tactics (which is pretty good these days) and the option of taking a heavy weapon (which doesn't really matter). The advantages by far outweigh the disadvantages though, as you said.


Yeah a 10 point las cannon with 4+ wounds blocking it never made a huge difference. *Add sarcasm*



It doesn't make a huge difference when the dominating build is Razorback spam. The optimal range of both Tac squads and GH squads is 12", due to rapid fire. GH squads get additional CCWs and counter-attack, which is huge. Combat Tactics in 6th evens this out, but it doesn't make it equal. Having access to stuff like Wolf Standards and CML Wolf Guard (there's your heavy weapon for you BTW) further increases the gap.


Sorry a 10 point Lascannon that can stand behind 4 wounds and snipe vehicles while the other half of its original squad, the sarge with Combi-X & power X and the special weapon, move up to take objectives and such. Again, I say if you think Tacs are terrible or are worse than GHs you obviously don't know them well.

Razorback spam hey? Not like C:SM can't do it just as good or better. Combat squad with the Tac, leave the Razorback next to the heavy fire team and you'd have a massive collection of heavy weapons covering your special/CQC fire team. If you need a quick rush on objectives closer to your side of the table then jump in and drive on over. Tactically, funnily ebough, Tacs are much more flexible. GHs have to punch though the enemy line with close range fire and assaults.


Wolf standards are one use, they are great for gaining an edge in assault for sure but they can only be used once. The C:SM variations are the company and chapter banners, not as good in assault but its reusable and IRRC has additional benefits.

Since you brought Terminators into the equasion lets talk about being able to combat squad 3 units of TH/SS termis (that C:SM get significantly cheaper) for 6 squads of 5 2+/3++ death machines. Even one squad, broken down into combat squads or not, is line breaking to damn near anything. Attaching a WG termi with a heavy weapon to a GH squad seems redundant to me, especially a CML. Perhaps an Assault cannon but its way to expensive to be on the front line and works wa better in a WGT pack. If anything a WG with a combi-X and a power weapon/fist would be better.

The grass is always greener mate, perhaps your just a wolf player trying to make C:SM work like wolves. And before you jump on the 'All wolf players just missial spam witb LFs' bandwagon I don't, I prefers spending the time and points on other heavy weapons and mixing them into each other to use Fire control to directs anti infantry fire to infantry and anit vehicle to vehicles. Basically, using tactics to fight rather than spam. Same premise is applied to C:SM, use its strengths to exploit the enemys weakness. Devs, Heavys in Tacs and effective anti infantry that can be brought to bear against LFs in the early stage of the battle should, it knocks out most Wolf players primary fire support. Then pick apart the GH squads as they advance. Thats just off the top of my head for petes sake.
   
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Sweden

I don't play either Wolves or Vanilla Marines, but there's a reason Space Wolves dominated on a completely different level in 5th. Space Wolves do Razor spam much better than Vanilla because of several reasons:

Meltaguns at 5 people. Makes you not have to pay for 10 Marines.

Better close-range stuff. Did you really bring up the Company Banner that's available on a whopping one unit as the counterpart to the Wolf Standard available on troops?

Cost. The Space Wolves get 5 guys with a Meltagun and a PF/Combi-Melta Wolf Guard in a Lazorback for 198 points. The same setup costs 270 points in Codex: Space Marines. That means you're paying 72 points more for 5 guys with a Missile Launcher; that's almost another squad of bare-bones Grey Hunters. Times six that's 432 points, which easily pays for three Long Fang packs with Missile Launchers. You thus get way more firepower as Space Wolves.



Regarding having Devestators to take out Long Fangs. How many points are those Long Fangs compared to the Devs? What prevents the (cheaper) Space Wolf fire support from killing your stuff first?

Regarding TH/SS Terminators, yes, they're good. Who takes 30 of them? That's 1200 points of easily ignored foot sloggers. For that matter, who takes them without a Land Raider?

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon




Armageddon, Pry System, Armageddon Sector, Armageddon Sub-sector, Segmentum Solar.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't play either Wolves or Vanilla Marines, but there's a reason Space Wolves dominated on a completely different level in 5th. Space Wolves do Razor spam much better than Vanilla because of several reasons:

Meltaguns at 5 people. Makes you not have to pay for 10 Marines.

Better close-range stuff. Did you really bring up the Company Banner that's available on a whopping one unit as the counterpart to the Wolf Standard available on troops?

Cost. The Space Wolves get 5 guys with a Meltagun and a PF/Combi-Melta Wolf Guard in a Lazorback for 198 points. The same setup costs 270 points in Codex: Space Marines. That means you're paying 72 points more for 5 guys with a Missile Launcher; that's almost another squad of bare-bones Grey Hunters. Times six that's 432 points, which easily pays for three Long Fang packs with Missile Launchers. You thus get way more firepower as Space Wolves.



Regarding having Devestators to take out Long Fangs. How many points are those Long Fangs compared to the Devs? What prevents the (cheaper) Space Wolf fire support from killing your stuff first?

Regarding TH/SS Terminators, yes, they're good. Who takes 30 of them? That's 1200 points of easily ignored foot sloggers. For that matter, who takes them without a Land Raider?


Cool, so your just taking this from personal experience of getting beaten by more wolf players than vanilla marines then?

If the wolf players are using RB spam, MSU and LF missile spam then its not that hard to consider a counter. Not one unit numbers more than 6 marines? To me that spells plasma bait. All the vehicles have low armour values? Anything S6 or higher has a good chance at taking them out, more plasma bait IMO. Oh noes he has 15 missile launchers, what do I do? Fast moving assault oriented units would ruin any LFs day, kill two and force a moral test, snipe them, good god there are so many options. Its called tactics and strategy, even cheap min/max builds have weaknesses you just need to exploit them.

As for vanilla marines if they don't like Tacs they can always sit back with multiple units of scoutes with Sniper rifles and camo cloaks to ruin EVERYONES day. 10 4+ poison, precision and potentially rending shots from models that get a +1 to their cover save for under 200 points? Nah, no one would like that. Anything gets close enough to use a AP4 ignores cover weapon then they just move though cover and rapidly redeploy while the other squads cover them. Oh and they infiltrate and they are scoring units.

But seriously, if a vanilla marine player can't do well with tacs alone then something is seriously wrong with their tactics.

EDIT: Further more taking 30 TH/SS Termis in a 1500 point battle is possible and very harsh. Min out on the two sniper armed scout squads as troops and min out on the HQ then spend 1200 on the TH/SS termis, combat squad them should you desire (I would) then Deep strike them in. between 6 squads and the fact they have a 2+/3++ they will survive, mostly. then charge em in on the next turn. From there it becomes fairly one sided. Franly I dont know anything that takes down TH/SS termis with any reliability and surly not at 1500 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/10/09 00:49:17


 
   
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Bausk wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't play either Wolves or Vanilla Marines, but there's a reason Space Wolves dominated on a completely different level in 5th. Space Wolves do Razor spam much better than Vanilla because of several reasons:

Meltaguns at 5 people. Makes you not have to pay for 10 Marines.

Better close-range stuff. Did you really bring up the Company Banner that's available on a whopping one unit as the counterpart to the Wolf Standard available on troops?

Cost. The Space Wolves get 5 guys with a Meltagun and a PF/Combi-Melta Wolf Guard in a Lazorback for 198 points. The same setup costs 270 points in Codex: Space Marines. That means you're paying 72 points more for 5 guys with a Missile Launcher; that's almost another squad of bare-bones Grey Hunters. Times six that's 432 points, which easily pays for three Long Fang packs with Missile Launchers. You thus get way more firepower as Space Wolves.



Regarding having Devestators to take out Long Fangs. How many points are those Long Fangs compared to the Devs? What prevents the (cheaper) Space Wolf fire support from killing your stuff first?

Regarding TH/SS Terminators, yes, they're good. Who takes 30 of them? That's 1200 points of easily ignored foot sloggers. For that matter, who takes them without a Land Raider?


Cool, so your just taking this from personal experience of getting beaten by more wolf players than vanilla marines then?

If the wolf players are using RB spam, MSU and LF missile spam then its not that hard to consider a counter. Not one unit numbers more than 6 marines? To me that spells plasma bait. All the vehicles have low armour values? Anything S6 or higher has a good chance at taking them out, more plasma bait IMO. Oh noes he has 15 missile launchers, what do I do? Fast moving assault oriented units would ruin any LFs day, kill two and force a moral test, snipe them, good god there are so many options. Its called tactics and strategy, even cheap min/max builds have weaknesses you just need to exploit them.

As for vanilla marines if they don't like Tacs they can always sit back with multiple units of scoutes with Sniper rifles and camo cloaks to ruin EVERYONES day. 10 4+ poison, precision and potentially rending shots from models that get a +1 to their cover save for under 200 points? Nah, no one would like that. Anything gets close enough to use a AP4 ignores cover weapon then they just move though cover and rapidly redeploy while the other squads cover them. Oh and they infiltrate and they are scoring units.

But seriously, if a vanilla marine player can't do well with tacs alone then something is seriously wrong with their tactics.

EDIT: Further more taking 30 TH/SS Termis in a 1500 point battle is possible and very harsh. Min out on the two sniper armed scout squads as troops and min out on the HQ then spend 1200 on the TH/SS termis, combat squad them should you desire (I would) then Deep strike them in. between 6 squads and the fact they have a 2+/3++ they will survive, mostly. then charge em in on the next turn. From there it becomes fairly one sided. Franly I dont know anything that takes down TH/SS termis with any reliability and surly not at 1500 points.



You seriously overestimate how good sniper scouts are, and I say that despite actually liking them. 10 of them get an average of 2.5 wounds per turn. Not exactly stellar, even if they do have the possibility to rend.

Your TH/SS Terminator tactic is also ludicruosly risky. You start with almost nothing on the board, which means that if your opponent has anything that can hit you turn 1 (Sternguard in a pod comes to mind as a worst-case scenario) you're toast. You have 0 anti-tank and almost no way of claiming objectives other than to deploy on top of them. You have no way of winning against a horde and you're incredibly vulnerable to massed anti-infantry fire, the stuff every list gets just by taking troops. If you don't know anything that's good at taking down TH/SS Terminators you don't exactly have a lot of experience with/against them. It's called tactics and strategy, even TH/SS Terminators have weaknesses, you just need to exploit them...

As for fighting Space Wolves, I dare say I know how to fight them. I've not once argued that they're unbeatable, just that they're better than Vanilla. It's not that Tactical squads don't work, just that Grey Hunters are better. Tactical marines are a solid troops choice, but they're not much more than that. Again, there's a reason that Space Wolves dominated 5th edition together with IG, and it's not that people don't know how to play Vanilla.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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