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I was wondering if Immotekh's lightning can hit flyers? I saw there was a thread on this awhile back but it seemed to have no consensus. Also, I wasn't sure how the new FAQ effected this ability as it isn't a shooting attack.

Far as I know it should still work against them. It's not a shooting attack, as you said.

I believe that Imo's lightning should be considered as a form of attack. One that creates automatic hits. So no, it shouldn't hit flyers.

Yea cuz everyone know flyers handle thunderstorms much better than any other type of vehicle.

Actually lightning doesn't damage modern day aircraft at all. The lightning hits the aircraft and it continues its path to the ground as if nothing happened. The aircraft's outer shell just acts as a conductor. I guess at the distant future that would stay at least the same.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-happens-when-lightni

copper.talos wrote:
I believe that Imo's lightning should be considered as a form of attack. One that creates automatic hits. So no, it shouldn't hit flyers.

Just because you believe it should, doesn't mean that it is.

There is no weapon profile for it. It is a special abilities effect. It is not considered an attack of any kind.

This has been hashed out several times, and I am sure the regulars will be along shortly to begin the cycle again.

If it doesn't roll to hit ... it has no chance of hitting a flyer.

copper.talos wrote:
Actually lightning doesn't damage modern day aircraft at all. The lightning hits the aircraft and it continues its path to the ground as if nothing happened. The aircraft's outer shell just acts as a conductor. I guess at the distant future that would stay at least the same.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-happens-when-lightni

That logic doesn't make as much sense when applied to FMC's, which often times don't have an outer shell to conduct the electricity without it coursing through the creature's body. I suppose it's the idea that blasts, AoE weapons and auto-hits target the ground, not the sky.

I posted about lightning and aircrafts in response to the comment that said that aircrafts should be more vulnerable to lightnings. It wasn't a rule-based argument and of course it doesn't cover fmc.

To get to the rules, directly from the faq:
Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them


If an ability can damage something is a form of attack. So Imo's lightning is an attack that doesn't roll to hit, so it cannot be used against fmc or flyers.

You do roll to hit with Imotekh's Lightning Attack....you need to roll a 6 on a D6 to affect enemy units with it. If you do hit then you generate the D6 hits. It's not automatic and therefore can affect flyers and FMCs.

 evildrspock wrote:
logic doesn't make as much sense when applied to FMC's

I can't think of anything quippy enough to say how true this statement is.

 Zathras wrote:
You do roll to hit with Imotekh's Lightning Attack....you need to roll a 6 on a D6 to affect enemy units with it. If you do hit then you generate the D6 hits. It's not automatic and therefore can affect flyers and FMCs.

That's not actually a 'to hit' roll. More like a roll to effect.

copper.talos wrote:If an ability can damage something is a form of attack. So Imo's lightning is an attack that doesn't roll to hit, so it cannot be used against fmc or flyers.

You are as entitled to your opinions as anyone else however you are just straight up wrong. I don't really know any better way to say it, sorry.

There is no such thing as 'a form of attack' within the context of 40k. Either it is a Close Combat Attack (which is not relevent to this scenario) , a Shooting Attack (which is clearly defined as such), or an Psychic Shooting Attack (also with clearly defined rules) or it is not an attack at all.

In this case Imotekhs' Lord of the Storm is a special ability. It is not 'fired', or 'targetted', you do not check 'LOS' for it, and you most certainly do not 'Roll to Hit' with it.

Ergo, it hit's fliers just fine.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Zathras wrote:
You do roll to hit with Imotekh's Lightning Attack....you need to roll a 6 on a D6 to affect enemy units with it. If you do hit then you generate the D6 hits. It's not automatic and therefore can affect flyers and FMCs.

That's not actually a 'to hit' roll. More like a roll to effect.

But you do roll to activate the power....it involves rolling dice and therefore does not hit/affect units automatically. Therefore it does not fall under the rule that prevents it from hitting Fliers and FMCs.

The faq talks about "roll to hit". Imo's power is not activated by a roll to hit. It just requires a 6 on a D6 roll.

copper.talos wrote:
The faq talks about "roll to hit". Imo's power is not activated by a roll to hit. It just requires a 6 on a D6 roll.

Hmmm, "roll a 6 on a D6 roll" sounds like a roll to hit to me.

You should read the BRB then. Especially pg13.

and you should re-read zooming fliers. It says shots at fliers can only be resolved as snap shots. Imotekhs lightning is not a shooting attack so does not even trigger that rule. Maledictions also fall under this category

Yes I know that part. That's why there is a faq that covers ANY attacks.

copper.talos wrote:
Yes I know that part. That's why there is a faq that covers ANY attacks.

Well that's just wonderful...except it says you can't "target" them, and imotekh's lightning does not target anything.

An argument could be made that it targets everyone.

Fragile wrote:
An argument could be made that it targets everyone.

It could, but since it doesn't do that it would be a bad argument. Mainly because, far as I can tell, you only "choose a target" in the shooting phase.

Death Ray doesn't need a target too. But it still cannot be used against flyers.

And anyway that same faq gives the explicit permission "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures".

copper.talos wrote:
Death Ray doesn't need a target too. But it still cannot be used against flyers.

And anyway that same faq gives the explicit permission "Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures".

Ya, but that was ruled that way more because you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line.

And yes, it does state that, but that has no bearing on a special ability that happens outside of shooting. Specifically because that FAQ entry references "weapons" and other things that only apply in the shooting phase.

Based on the precedent of other non-shooting attacks (i.e. Bomb Squigs and TFtD) I'm inclined to say that Zoomers and Swoopers cannot be hit by the lightning.

Happyjew wrote:
Based on the precedent of other non-shooting attacks (i.e. Bomb Squigs and TFtD) I'm inclined to say that Zoomers and Swoopers cannot be hit by the lightning.

I don't know about bomb squigs, but terror from the deep is a blast marker anyway.

*edit*
Ah, it appears that bomb squigs are used in the shooting phase as well. And most likely do have a weapon profile since they have a range and a strength, probably an AP but I don't know. I'm guessing you need LOS to use them too.

 Kevin949 wrote:

Ya, but that was ruled that way more because you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line.

And yes, it does state that, but that has no bearing on a special ability that happens outside of shooting. Specifically because that FAQ entry references "weapons" and other things that only apply in the shooting phase.

Totally wrong.

"Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Nothing even hints at " you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line". Which by itself is a wrong statement because a battlefield includes the airspace above the ground. If a line on the battlefield only meant a line on the table then nothing could ever be hit by the Death Ray since it only hits units under the line, so its targets should only be under the table...

copper.talos wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

Ya, but that was ruled that way more because you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line.

And yes, it does state that, but that has no bearing on a special ability that happens outside of shooting. Specifically because that FAQ entry references "weapons" and other things that only apply in the shooting phase.

Totally wrong.

"Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Nothing even hints at " you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line". Which by itself is a wrong statement because a battlefield includes the airspace above the ground. If a line on the battlefield only meant a line on the table then nothing could ever be hit by the Death Ray since it only hits units under the line, so its targets should only be under the table...

So then I can nominate a point in the air? Anyway, the rule the death ray is abstraction of how the weapon fires but I won't get into the fluff part of it because then we'd be bringing up the blood lance and jaws and blah blah blah that all have the same wording for what is effected (outside of the fact that none of them can target flyers for one reason or another).

Anywho, you can honestly think whatever you want to think about this rule and play it however you want to play it. Everything I have seen demonstrated, though, only references actual shooting attacks or attacks that happen in the shooting phase to not affect a flyer (or disallow targeting of). Imotekhs Lightning strikes are not one of them.

copper.talos wrote:Totally wrong.

"Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Nothing even hints at " you're required to nominate points on the battlefield, and it's impossible for a flier to be bisected by that line". Which by itself is a wrong statement because a battlefield includes the airspace above the ground. If a line on the battlefield only meant a line on the table then nothing could ever be hit by the Death Ray since it only hits units under the line, so its targets should only be under the table...

At the risk of sounding redundant: it's a 'special ability', not an 'attack'.

This is an Attack:
"ATTACKS (A)
...This shows the number of times a model aftacks during close combat..."
As is this:
During the Shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy... ...for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack...

The special ability you are debating however is not one of those two things nor is it one of the other abilities such as PSAs which use either of the above rule-sets in their function.

Anything that a unit can use to damage an enemy unit is an attack by definition. If you wish to be extremely strict to the wording of the rules, then your opponent should be equally strict and point to you that the rules only mention weapons can score a penetrating hit against vehicles. So either way the flyer will go undamaged by the lightning.

copper.talos wrote:
Anything that a unit can use to damage an enemy unit is an attack by definition. If you wish to be extremely strict to the wording of the rules, then your opponent should be equally strict and point to you that the rules only mention weapons can score a penetrating hit against vehicles. So either way the flyer will go undamaged by the lightning.

Actually no, that definition is your personal opinion.

The 6th edition 40k rule book on the other hand (which i quoted above) is actually quite clear on what is and isn't an attack. (and what constitutes a penetrating hit for that matter, though that is not exactly relevent to this topic)

it'd help if you join the rest of us in discussing what the books actually say, or at least indicate that you are discussing something from the perspective of how you personally would play it rather than a literal interpretation of what it states.